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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
Can anyone define nature vs nurture?
    #22115165 - 08/20/15 02:13 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'm trying to find out where nature vs nurture plays a role in the evolution of consciousness and am still looking for alternate definitions of the two.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: sudly]
    #22115195 - 08/20/15 02:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Nature = genetics

Nurture = Your parental (or other carers) influence


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Invisiblemustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
I'm a teapot


Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22115202 - 08/20/15 02:49 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

nature = genes + life experiences

nurture = care afforded when young + indoctrination

nature + nurture= you

(genes + care when young) + ( indoctrination + life experience) = you

and in that order too imo.
its a progressive road... you can be the nicest person but then life experience will turn you bitter with age lol

maybe

(genes + care + indoctrination) x life experience is more realistic lol


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Edited by mustangbob3 (08/20/15 03:23 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: sudly]
    #22115210 - 08/20/15 02:59 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I was hoping for an example of nature or nurture affecting how an animal or person was raised.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: sudly]
    #22115224 - 08/20/15 03:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Remember that book I mentioned to you the other day sudly? 'They f**k you up' by Oliver James - it's replete with the kind of examples you seek. It is, in fact, a study that draws upon all that our current scientific knowledge has to offer about how these two factors affect your adult self. Plus it covers BPD in great depth. Do you not like reading?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22115229 - 08/20/15 03:24 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I can't focus on a book and I can't find it in audio book form =(

I'll also re define what I'm trying to learn.
I want to know how to define the nature part of nature vs nurture. How does nature affect how things are raised?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblemustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
I'm a teapot


Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: sudly]
    #22115258 - 08/20/15 03:41 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

well if you live in say africa compared to say england...

the nature means less food, hotter weather ect

so nature directly affects how you are cared for and also you life experience..

i.e starving and not starving ect

its too hard to list as there is hundreds of ways nature can affect you directly and also indirectly.

indirectly is can affect your outlook on life ect
directly is can create hardships that inturn again affect outlook
and will shape you as a person , for them better or worse.

even the nature of genes depending where you live makes a diff.
say being black in the wrong place will affect you.
rascism ect
diff opportunities ect.

also your genes will belong to a set culture.
this culture is a form of indoctrination that shapes you.

the effects are far reaching.

anything that effects us shapes us, like a plant in the wind.
everything adds to the total of you!



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: mustangbob3]
    #22115260 - 08/20/15 03:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Do you think introducing magic mushrooms into the diet of an ancient hominid could affect their behavior?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblemustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
I'm a teapot


Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: sudly]
    #22115266 - 08/20/15 03:49 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

i think adding any drug to humans affects behaviors.

lasting effects... thats debatable lol

.:smile:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: mustangbob3]
    #22115273 - 08/20/15 03:53 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Is it implausible to suggest that magic mushrooms affected pre-hominid behaviors to develop a rudimentary form of consciousness?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinemaynard
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Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: mustangbob3] * 1
    #22115282 - 08/20/15 03:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Nature-a chick has blond hair

Nurture-society has lower expectations of blonds for higher cognition and problem solving.  With lower expectations comes lower demands placed upon them.  If you have low demand/expectation, you are not challenged and society blindly accepts you are a ditsy blond and it would be easier to only reach a low level of potential.

That's not to say blond hair makes you dumb....just a comical social psychology example


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Invisiblemustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
I'm a teapot


Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: sudly]
    #22115289 - 08/20/15 04:03 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Is it implausible to suggest that magic mushrooms affected pre-hominid behaviors to develop a rudimentary form of consciousness?





it could happen but its only speculation without proof.
we will never know as we dont have the pieces of the puzzle to put it together.

so it really falls into the realms of conspiracy theorys, aliens and other far out ideas.

not because it dosent have merit, just no way to know and the advances from knowing are not really relevant so knowone is going to fund research.

so your on your own, if you want to prove it.
simply to science at the present time it has no intrinsic value.


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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: mustangbob3]
    #22116312 - 08/20/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Nature vs. Nurture is what the Greeks called physis vs. nomos, and it could be defined as a fundamental concept of existence and what we understand of it.

All our conceptions of knowledge of the physical world quite arguably come out of this principle consideration of nature, even though the significance of the so called "natural philosophy" is sidelined as a button issue today. Ironically, people prefer to ascribe causes technically ie. through physics vs. metaphysics, and generally the consequential issues which arise in a prescribed, and strictly causal, matrix.

Nature and nurture could be posed as a novel consideration today. I believe as things are, the chief relevance would be to an epistemological basis (a consideration of how we know what we know of nature) as much, and if not more than what we know per se. That would be my suggestion of the meaning.

To answer the question, the definition of nature vs. nurture is the fundamental conceptuality that we draw from the point of mediative  experience of the natural world, and this can be seen as distinct from derivative principles of "sufficient reason" (ie. causal provisions) as much as it may be seen in that.

So the principle of contradiction, in nature vs. nurture is inevitably somewhat arbitrary, and completely fundamental to human understanding at the same time. A good question to ask in many senses; is what is the conditionality (nurturing) of existence? It seems crucial that there maybe more than me way to ask and answer.

For beings such as homosapiens (glorified bipeds) who do significantly dwell in their reflective understanding and are arguably able to take a stand on their existence, conditionality is often what we choose to acquiesce to, and work with. I have not seen it any other way. Yet people still believe in absolutes. I think it is important to acknowledge that insofar as we exist, we exist conditionally, but how we reflect on this is just as much always going to be key.

That'd be my 2 cents.


Edited by Kurt (08/20/15 06:27 PM)


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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: Kurt]
    #22116358 - 08/20/15 11:48 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Here is a discussion of Ridley's basic concept in Nature via Nurture, which I think describes a potential for how monkeys, with a certain capacity of symbolic reflection may actually take a redeemable stand on their existence or "nature":

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3592370/You-cant-teach-a-monkey-to-fear-a-flower.html

Quote:

Here is a little experiment you can try, using a few common objects such as video recorders, snakes and baby monkeys (make sure the monkeys were raised in captivity). First, show your monkeys a snake: never having seen one before, they are unlikely to be worried. From this, we can conclude that fear of snakes is not, for monkeys, innate.

Next, show your monkeys another monkey being terrified by a snake (it doesn't matter if it is only observed on video): they will instantly start the screaming and smacking of lips that are their way of expressing terror, and the reaction will be repeated on any subsequent encounters with snakes. From this, we conclude that fear of snakes can be learned.

Finally, show your monkeys another monkey being terrified by something harmless - a flower, say (you will almost certainly have to use a doctored video): your monkeys will not be remotely impressed, and on future encounters with flowers will betray no interest or alarm. From this we conclude that while fear of snakes can be learned, other sorts of fear can't. Monkeys may not have an innate fear of snakes; but they do have an innate predisposition, a slot in their heads where "fear of snakes" will fit.

Aside from sheer entertainment, the value of this experiment (developed by Susan Mineka at the University of Wisconsin in the early 1980s) is that it demonstrates the sterility of the traditional dichotomy between nature and nurture. For humans, as for monkeys, instinct needs to be stimulated and modified by experience. How we react to our environment will be determined largely by our genes. Conversely, how our genes express themselves will be determined largely by our environment. Hence Matt Ridley's title: Nature via Nurture.

The point seems to be common sense: we all know people who seem to have been born gloomy, or with a sunny nature. But we also know a bad day can make us more miserable and a good one more cheerful. It is natural for us to read people's behaviour as the product of instinct and circumstance. Yet when scientists and politicians start trying to pin down human nature, the dichotomy of nature versus nurture always seems to rear its head...




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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: Kurt]
    #22117885 - 08/20/15 06:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Finlly nature vs. nurture is existential. It is like a syncopation of rythmn, or like the branching of a tree. The passivity and aquiescence of "nurturing" has to be found in principle, for there to be any such distinction, and so this would seemingly be emphasized as departure. Weakness or passivity becoming strength, strength exhausting into weakness. That is very human.

It is clearly enough, not a single thing but unified involvement. When unbalanced, it becomes the dialectical opposition of extremes.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: sudly]
    #22118452 - 08/20/15 08:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
Re: Can anyone define nature vs nurture? [Re: Kurt]
    #22118609 - 08/20/15 08:59 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

That's what I was looking for :laugh:
Ridleys concept fits my predictions!!!


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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