Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2  [ show all ]
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: AllGreyThumbs] * 2
    #22164838 - 08/30/15 01:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Lots of BS to defend the one statement of your's that I questioned, namely: There are no sins and no such thing as right and wrong. Because this is the baseline assumption of a sociopath, I was asking you for clarification, not pointing a finger. I don't know you and I cannot evaluate a person from a statement, but if there is conviction behind that statement, then in real-time I would endeavor to avoid such an individual. There is a difference between seeking clarification and making an unfounded pronouncement. I do not make diagnoses in a cavalier way, and I do not diagnose on the internet anyway, it's irresponsible, unreliable and frankly, invalid to do so. That's where personal face-to-face interaction is necessary. I see back-peddling and rationalization in your unnecessary argument which deflects the simplicity of your statement onto "human concepts of right and wrong," and relegating "empathy"  to "a connection to the rest of life." Well, the artificial wedge that you attempt to insert between empathy and its accurate intellectual "concepts" creates a linguistic disconnect. It is a non sequitur to my mind to connect actual empathy with a statement like yours. Concepts developed from "a connection to the rest of life,"  "empathy," (as well as "congruence" and "unconditional positive regard," all terms identified by the humanistic psychologist Carl Rogers), cannot, without complete confusion, be elaborated as an absence of good and evil in ANY idiom I can think of, psychologically, spiritually, sociologically, anthropologically, etc.

I once had a phone conversation with an actual sociopath, who had, as it turned out, stolen cash money from me. When he was apprehended months later for armed robbery, he and I had a conversation before he had to surrender himself to Rahway State Prison in NJ. He wanted us to go out together to buy some "skinny girls with big tits," and "good champagne" - apparently, with MY money (a sick game all by itself). At the time, I hadn't figured out that this former friend of my brother had burgled my money. During the course of conversation he brought up the idea and insisted that "there is no good or evil." He was following wealthy woman home from the mall to rob them of their diamond rings and jewelry at the point of a Crossman® BB gun (it is still armed robbery). His justification was that he was making money to go to chiropractic school to HELP people! :lol: Deluded or just plain lying, he did 10 years at Rahway. Just one example of an individual with conviction behind the same statement where the conviction got him convicted and made him a convict.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22168975 - 08/31/15 12:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

AGT & Markos - it sounds to me as though you guys are talking about two sides of the same coin. I know my mind often operates on both sides of that coin; I try and reserve the mind as a tool (right & wrong) and connect with my higher self where possible (spiritual/empathy).


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22169240 - 08/31/15 01:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Empathy, like Congruence and Unconditional Positive Regard are the hallmarks of a normal, healthy-functioning person according to Carl Rogers. Lawrence Kohlberg's research into moral development illustrated invariant features of development across some 300 different cultures. Kohlberg added a 7th stage of Post-Conventional moral development which was based on a transcendental or cosmic consciousness motive, but the psychological community never accepted it. I do of course, or I wouldn't have struggled with ethical vegetarianism and veganism for so many years of my life. That struggle began the evening after m first trip - Heavenly Blue Morning Glory seeds - when my mom put a hamburger in front of me and I hallucinated it breathing. I realized that brown, broiled meat-puck had been a living, breathing, mooing cow that was cruelly killed after a life of concentration-camp-like agri-farmed existence. Most people who remain omnivores refuse to acknowledge these truths or they would have to live up to their expanded awareness of horror and suffering, and that means they would have to resist eating animal flesh, resist their programming, their habits, and most of all their sensory pleasure which remains over their conscience.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAllGreyThumbs
Storage Container Aficionado
Male

Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 849
Loc: Some savage little planet...
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22174201 - 09/01/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Lots of BS to defend the one statement of your's that I questioned, namely: There are no sins and no such thing as right and wrong. Because this is the baseline assumption of a sociopath, I was asking you for clarification, not pointing a finger. I don't know you and I cannot evaluate a person from a statement, but if there is conviction behind that statement, then in real-time I would endeavor to avoid such an individual. There is a difference between seeking clarification and making an unfounded pronouncement. I do not make diagnoses in a cavalier way, and I do not diagnose on the internet anyway, it's irresponsible, unreliable and frankly, invalid to do so. That's where personal face-to-face interaction is necessary. I see back-peddling and rationalization in your unnecessary argument which deflects the simplicity of your statement onto "human concepts of right and wrong," and relegating "empathy"  to "a connection to the rest of life." Well, the artificial wedge that you attempt to insert between empathy and its accurate intellectual "concepts" creates a linguistic disconnect. It is a non sequitur to my mind to connect actual empathy with a statement like yours. Concepts developed from "a connection to the rest of life,"  "empathy," (as well as "congruence" and "unconditional positive regard," all terms identified by the humanistic psychologist Carl Rogers), cannot, without complete confusion, be elaborated as an absence of good and evil in ANY idiom I can think of, psychologically, spiritually, sociologically, anthropologically, etc.

I once had a phone conversation with an actual sociopath, who had, as it turned out, stolen cash money from me. When he was apprehended months later for armed robbery, he and I had a conversation before he had to surrender himself to Rahway State Prison in NJ. He wanted us to go out together to buy some "skinny girls with big tits," and "good champagne" - apparently, with MY money (a sick game all by itself). At the time, I hadn't figured out that this former friend of my brother had burgled my money. During the course of conversation he brought up the idea and insisted that "there is no good or evil." He was following wealthy woman home from the mall to rob them of their diamond rings and jewelry at the point of a Crossman® BB gun (it is still armed robbery). His justification was that he was making money to go to chiropractic school to HELP people! :lol: Deluded or just plain lying, he did 10 years at Rahway. Just one example of an individual with conviction behind the same statement where the conviction got him convicted and made him a convict.




First off I would like to apologize.  I responded too harshly to you.  What you may realize is that my mind does not work like most people's minds work.

In fact I have always been different.  Not different like in a non normal category of psychology, but different as in not at all like the way anybody else seems to think and maybe even different than anything that most experts have even had a chance to study and include in their paradigms.  This might become more obvious if we continue to interact.

What you might not realize is that because of this, for pretty much my entire life I have to deal with people trying to label me as mentally ill.  People always seem to want to judge me or categorize me as abnormal.  It has been very hard for me to deal with this sort of thing and it has hurt me badly at times.  I've spent a great to deal of time and effort cleaning up the psychological damage I have taken because of people trying to say that I was crazy or even pressuring me to think in more normal ways.

At the same time I just keep right on living and getting by, working, interacting with others and so on.  In fact many people I know appreciate the unique ideas that I have and the way that I always seem to have a different take on a situation.  The way I see it, I am valuable as I am for the unique perspective that I offer life.  Life needs people like me to find new ways of doing things.  I should not be labeled as "in need of repair" or pressured back towards normalcy, I should be allowed to be myself.

Yet that is not at all what I have encountered in far too many cases, and even from the people that are closest to me.  My life has been a constant battle just to be allowed to show even a little bit of what I feel I can offer.

So your post struck a cord and stirred up all the psychological damage I had taken from well meaning but I'll informed amateur psychologists over the years.  A barrage of diagnosis from ignorant people who know nothing of me nor have the right to diagnose anyone.

Of course you cannot know what I've been through which is why I must apologize.

I sometimes find myself doing this, pushing back against any attempts to place myself or anyone else into mental slots.  This sort of thing has caused me enough trouble already.  Plus I care quite deeply for life and feel that people like me do play a valuable role.  I must protect the uniqueness and diversity of the life of which I am a part.  So I try to nip that sort of thing in the bud in order to protect myself and also life as a whole  Best to make it quite clear from the start that I will never settle quietly into somebody else's expectations.

You see I do believe that most human beings have a habit of slotting people, of trying to place them into mental categories and then using that to determine how to relate to them.  I prefer to try to communicate as fellow human beings, soul to soul if you will, and not as ego to ego.  We are so much more than the mental models we use to define ourselves and each other, so I try to reach beyond those kinds of things when I can.

Again I am truly sorry for responding so harshly.  I felt threaten and concerned that once again I would have to defend myself against those that wish to label me without really understanding me.

I guess if you must sort me in your mind understand that I am at my essence an agent of change and therefore inherently unpredicable.  Whatever is expected, I will do something else.  Perhaps that is why I find labels so offensive.  If someone assumes something about me I almost have to do something that will challenge that assumption.

Anyway, if we can get beyond this, perhaps there are some things that we can learn by our interactions.  For example I still don't understand why it seems so difficult to consider that right and wrong (or sin) do not exist in any universal or how shall we say, extra human way.  There is no God that will judge us and we do not incur karma based upon any specific action.  We can kill or save and the results of those things depend much more upon our intentions that the actual act itself.

So we cannot say that either killing or smoking is a sin or wrong in an extra human sense, in the eyes of God or universe or whatever.  It all depends upon why someone killed or smoked.  Did they kill because they genuinely felt that it would result in less suffering or did they kill because of some self serving interest?  Did someone smoke out of compulsion or did they smoke because they felt that it is just life and we need not take it so seriously, or that their particular path called them to ride the ragged edge of life?

And while our intentions are important to ourselves and may affect our paths through life, I still don't see a cosmic score keeper that keeps track of such things.  You can kill for selfish reasons if you'd like.  Acting so selfishly will incur karmic debt by driving a person deeper into perspectives that cause them to be isolated from other parts of life.  However even then there is no judgment passed by anything other that fellow human beings.  It isn't wrong in the eyes of divinty or anything akin to God to kill for selfish reasons.  It is merely born out of a failure to see the interconnectedness of life and therefore it makes it more difficult for a person to reach for less selfish states of mind in the future.

Basically I still proport that outside of human perspectives the concepts of right and wrong and therefore of sin does not exist.  They aren't used by God or the universe or anything.  They are concepts that human beings use to allow them to more easily relate to life.  If this then that, do right, don't do wrong.  They are a crutch for those that cannot feel for other parts of life and therefore have to interact using rules based morality.

Of course these concepts do exist in human intellectual paradigms.  Obviously the concepts are used by many if not most people.  However just because most people use them, I do not think that they need to be used or that in absence of them a person must become a danger to others.  Some people may need the concepts in order to function and may loose a sense of moral guidance without them.  However this is not always be the case.  There are people who function perfectly well after growing beyond logical morality.

For example we can replace the concept of right and wrong entirely with empathy and still interact normally (or even better than normally perhaps).  Rather than saying, "It is wrong to kill except in cases where further life is saved," we can say, "I cannot add suffering to life and I strive to lessen it."  This still affords moral guidance and even allows someone to kill if necessary.  It is just that rather than basing these decisions on human concepts of right and wrong we base them on a sense of how our actions affect other parts of life.

I believe that this subtle difference in perspective can be immensely important because the concepts of right and wrong are extremely fallible and prone to being twisted.  For example there are people that kill for their religion on the basis of them being right and others being wrong.  We also put people in prison for using mostly harmless substances because it is the right thing to do and will make things "better".  In their mind politicians and business leaders justify many of their actions by assuring themselves that it is right to do so.  They make a logical rationalizations that explain why it is acceptable to lie to the people that they serve or to destroy our environment for profit.

In fact you yourself gave a perfect example of a case in which right and wrong can be used to justify armed robbery.  Had that person felt the way their actions affected the person the victimized it would have been impossible to do what they did.  Right and wrong are arbitrary and either self or socially defined.  That guy thought he was right, as do religious warriors.  The concepts didn't help them one bit.

Yet when we place empathy, or a feeling of connection or concern for the rest of life above the concepts of right and wrong these kind of problems disappear.  It makes it impossible to rationalize an increase in suffering when the impact that we have on other parts of life is felt within ourselves.  I mean I don't know what the technical definition of empathy is, but to me it means quite literally experiencing the impact that our actions have on other parts of life.  If we cause suffering, we ourselves suffer.

So maybe empathy isn't the correct term, but that is what I am talking about, a true feeling of connection to the rest of life that cannot be a rationalized away with the human concepts of right and wrong.  If we truly feel the impact that our actions have on life we most certainly do not need concepts like right and wrong.

To me this sort of shared emotion is a very real thing that arises as a part of spiritual growth.  At some point along the way it.seems absurd to navigate life by such crude and arbitrary methods as right and wrong.  To me the concepts of right and wrong are just crude tools that are only necessary if we have lose our connection to our inner divinity and through it all of life.

Anyway, you seem to know quite a bit about conventional human psychological paradigms.  What I wonder is why you hang around a spiritual subforum?  No offense meant, but your ideas for far seem better suited for more traditional approaches to self understanding.  So why hang around here at all?  Surely there must be more to you ideas and your understanding of life than what you have shown here.

I feel as if I don't know the real you.  I see a lot of other people's ideas that you present, but I would like to understand how you see life.  I know that there is more to you than other people's thoughts and things that we can learn from books.  Show us yourself, the thoughts that make you unique.  Tell us your ideas, what you find interesting about spirituality.  Give us some real gifts, ideas that we cannot find anywhere else.

Do you think that we are more than just the workings of the human mind?  If not then what do you think we really are?  If we are more than just our minds, is that something that is unimportant to our daily life, our soul just rides with us until after death?  Or is this an important part of the way that we relate to life?  Do you believe that we can know ourselves, our soul intimately, or is this stuff all just mostly theory?  What of God or the creative source?  What do you know or how do you feel about such things?

Come on man, enough with the psychology.  Let's talk spirituality.


--------------------
I only use drugs medicinally.  If I don't my knees hurt from kneeling down.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: AllGreyThumbs]
    #22174236 - 09/01/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

AllGreyThumbs said:
To me the concepts of right and wrong are just crude tools that are only necessary if we have lose our connection to our inner divinity and through it all of life.




Great post AGT. I have felt very deeply what I quoted above for many years.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedesant
Pleiadian Revolutionary
Male


Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 7,038
Loc: Aether
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22174673 - 09/01/15 04:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: AllGreyThumbs] * 1
    #22174752 - 09/01/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

No apology is necessary since you have not attacked of offended me, but I appreciate your self-reflection and consideration that you might have. :thumbup:
Inasmuch as psychology is the study of the psyche, and psyche is Greek for soul, psychology is no less spiritual than what often passes for spirituality but which is in reality intellectualism. In post-modern times, the word mind has come to the fore, and unfortunately for people like myself who embrace transcendental aspects of mind, the word has been reduced by the majority of psychological practitioners to a mere biological computer process with rudimentary materialistic assumptions. Behaviorism was the philosophical counterpoint to Psychoanalysis in the 1950s, and Behaviorists denied the very existence of mind, while Freudians attempted to reduce the mystery of mind to thermodynamic laws and the materialistic philosophy of science according to Hermann von Helmholtz.

My own understanding of human consciousness embraces contradictory models. I am sympathetic to Western Platonism and Neoplatonism, but conversely, I can understand Buddhist Abhidharma philosophy/psychology also. Buddhism doesn't concern itself with cosmology, but I am concerned about cosmology because along with the evolution of physics and corespoding physical laws, I can entertain the possibility that Psyche was also evolved along with Physis (nature), and that we, along with the rest of the fabric of space-time are composed of consciousness as well as matter. Clearly, consciousness exists for all manner of creatures (even insects), but I have considered the consciousness of plants, and even of seemingly inanimate water, which is a basis for life on Earth. So along with such theorists as Masaru Emoto, Rupert Sheldrake, David Bohm, C.G. Jung (along with Neils Bohr), and certain alchemists and Hermetic philosophers, I hold some very non-conventional ideas about the nature of Reality.

Empathy derives from the Greek empatheia (from em- ‘in’ + pathos ‘feeling’). It is a corollary to compassion, but more profoundly feeling-toned than compassion. Compassion is often defined to be synonymous with pity in dictionaries, but pity is more like sympathy, which is yet farther removed from either compassion or empathy. As to ethics, while I am not prepared to discuss the various bases, like Utilitarianism, an ethic based on compassion judges good and evil on the basis of whether suffering is increased or decreased. Not to kill the baby-killer is to kill the innocent baby. Since there is no justification for anyone to murder a baby, the compassionate call would be to kill the killer. Empathy would cause the killer of the baby-killer to experience the pain and anguish of being killed, so empathy alone might prevent one from killing the baby-killer. Compassion is sometimes the sphere that sits between Mercy and Judgement (or Severity) on the Kabbalistic Tree. It is usually called Tiphereth (Harmony), but sometimes it is called Rahamin (Compassion), but it is the point of balance or harmony with Judgement is required for Mercy to triumph. Spiritually, one need aspire to identify with Tiphereth, the Lesser Countenance, The Sun, The Son, in order to live mercifully and judiciously because that is the sphere which draws down transpersonal insight from the Supernal spheres above. This is an idiom clearly, and one that I ascribe to. It provides a common language with which to discuss spiritual matters without creating confusion from people's idiosyncratic ideas.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAllGreyThumbs
Storage Container Aficionado
Male

Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 849
Loc: Some savage little planet...
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22178784 - 09/02/15 03:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I must be honest.  I am not familiar with the intricacies of many of those ways of looking at things.  Me being me and having to do things my way I never spent much time looking at ideas like that.  I just kind of invented my own ways of seeing and doing things.  For example I managed to distill my entire spiritual paradigm into a fairly simple and straightforward outlook.

Basically everything that exists is born of a creative source for the purpose providing meaningful experience.  The universe and everything in it, including us exists so that it can be experienced.  We are the experiencers, others and the universe the experiencees, but all of it existing for the purpose of being witnessed in meaningful ways.

So you basically have creative potential and solidified creative potential or "stuff".  These two aspects exist in varying degrees throughout everything.  Things that are mostly stuff, with little creative potential tend to behave according to their nature by fixed rules and mechanisms.  Stuff interacts with other stuff but it doesn't do much creatively.

On the other hand things like human beings have at least a little bit of free, or unsolidified creative potential.  So human being have two parts.  One part is a machine with a very computer like brain at its helm.  The computer like mind builds internal models of things and uses them to analyze and predict situations.  It also holds a self model, a big long list of what it is and what it wants from life.  Everything that is believed and valued, liked and disliked all stored in a big database like self model, or Ego.  It uses this self model to make decisions.  By it's internal modelling it knows what situation it is an and what kind of things may be possible and likely.  It cross references the database of what it wants.  It makes descisions that are likely to take it where it thinks it wants to go.

This computer mind would be pretty predictable expect for the free creative potential present in a human.  This allows us to do things that are beyond what the computer like mind would have done.  It basically adds that extra element that makes us more than just machines, unpredictable, creative, innovative.

So to me spirituality is about coming to recognize, accept, and nurture this side of ourselves.  As we do we some things become apparent.  One is that we are all from the same place and part of one large tapestry of life.  We only appear to be different because our computer like minds hold different models for ourselves and other parts of life.  "I am this, they are that."  These models are necessary for predictive calculations, but life is not really divided up in the way that our perspective makes it seem.

Another thing that becomes obvious is that experiential value matter more than material.  How things affect the experience of life is more important than things that have been declared by humans to be valuable.

For example, we could steal from each other, but in most cases small amounts of money will have little impact on our experience of life.  It might improve it briefly but not significantly or in any lasting way.  On the other hand this would impact the way in which someone else experiences life.  It would hurt them.  Because of the understanding that we are all connected we would never want to adversely impact someone else, especially if it doesn't add to our life experience in any significant way.

"I gain mostly worthless sand dollars.  Not inherently valuable.  Only valuable at all because they allow us to buy things which change our life experience.  But in order to do so I have to interfere with someone else's experience of life.  That doesn't make any sense at all."

"I could gain more dollars and buy a nicer car to take me all the same places that I go now, so experientially it wouldn't even change my life that much.  To do so would require my company to damage the environment that we all must live in.  That obviously doesn't make sense."

An understanding of the ways in which the creative source gives rise to all existence.  A perception of the ways in which all life is interconnected and separated only by human mental structures.  A placing of experiential value over material.  These are the kinds of things that we gain by the pursuit of spirituality, and this is the way that I see things.

Some of these ideas have been arrived at by other people in other places, but I myself have also reached the same conclusions and observations.  I had to.  I was incapable of believing or putting much stock in the ideas of other.  I had to devise my own ways of seeing life, even if it meant rebuilding the wheel at times.

But that is me and how I think.  I invent my own ways of doing things.  In doing so I occasionally actually come up things that are useful.  That is my gift to life and the reason that I feel I'm here.  To add new ideas and approaches to life that if found useful can be adopted by others in order to improve their experience of life.


--------------------
I only use drugs medicinally.  If I don't my knees hurt from kneeling down.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAkeldama


Registered: 07/31/14
Posts: 124
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: AllGreyThumbs]
    #22179492 - 09/02/15 06:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Lol no, but not caring for the health of your body or what you put in your body may be...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Fundamental Idea of Scientology?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Akira 8,232 65 05/28/07 06:49 AM
by Pulsating
* God = perfect? Deviate 2,570 14 11/05/05 03:25 PM
by Cyano
* Alien offers humankind the secrets of the Universe ShroomismM 6,565 14 11/18/13 01:19 AM
by Yesod
* What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? fivepointer 2,698 11 12/20/05 06:27 AM
by MAIA
* Duality Trap
( 1 2 all )
leery11 6,198 22 06/08/06 05:44 PM
by Telepylus
* Any Religious People ? bobby87 1,385 18 08/26/06 10:15 AM
by leery11
* The Mystery of the Crucifixion
( 1 2 all )
Silversoul 4,014 35 05/07/07 06:30 PM
by Disco Cat
* What the fuck is with male pisces?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Jenny 16,074 60 10/25/16 11:08 AM
by Eclipse3130

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, DividedQuantum
1,513 topic views. 0 members, 6 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.