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Offlinedesant
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Is smoking a sin??????
    #22110052 - 08/19/15 07:38 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

And im no talking about weed.

Im talking tobacco, not even normal cigs but electronic cigs. Do you think in the eyes of God it is wrong to smoke e cig?

Funny how stupid entities around me dont want me to smoke em, but many intellectuals and mystics and philosophers smoked. Einstein, Mark Twain, Robert Bruce, Robert Anton Wilson...


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: desant]
    #22110074 - 08/19/15 07:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Ya way back when, when people didn't realize how bad it was for you


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OfflineAllGreyThumbs
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #22110341 - 08/19/15 09:29 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

There are no sins and no such thing as right and wrong.  Those are just concepts we humans assign to things in order to allow our minds, which are basically computers, to make decisions.  The mind, being a computer and all, needs definitive statements, like right and wrong (sin).

On the other hand the part of us that exists to experience life through our human forms doesn't see specific things as right or wrong.  What is more important is the experiential aspect of something and that can vary greatly from person to person and over time.

For example, in youth, with friends that party, it might be worthwhile to use drugs.  However later in life, with family or other things to think about, the same drugs may seem less meaningful.  But then again, maybe in a middle aged life some partying improves your life and helps remind you that life should be fun.  It all depends on the situation and the kind of experiences you find meaningful.

So is smoking a sin?  No because sins don't really exist.  It's just something that humans invented.

Should you smoke?  Your mind craves a black and white answer that it can make decisions around.  From your soul side, you have to decide if it adds more experiential value to life.  How much do you enjoy it, vs what harm and potential consequences may eventually arise from it.

We are all going to die, so even if something kills you life may overall be better with it.  It's harder to see with smoking, but with drugs and alcohol it may be best for some people to just embrace the experiences they bring and go with it.  Some our best artists and innovators have become what they are because of a certain fearlessness and willingness to go where they are pulled.

Smoking might fit right into a just don't give a fuck, I'm living life to the fullest attitude.  It works for people who are called to live life with that bit of edginess.

On the other hand someone might be called to live peacefully, calmly, and healthily.

There is no easy answer for you.


--------------------
I only use drugs medicinally.  If I don't my knees hurt from kneeling down.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: desant]
    #22131318 - 08/23/15 03:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

no it's just dumb


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: quinn]
    #22131337 - 08/23/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

well for me anyway.. i mean it can be really gratifying but if i think about it too much it gets tangled into a whole web of death and self destructive thinking patterns.. so for me if i do it i just enjoy it and forget it


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: AllGreyThumbs]
    #22132636 - 08/23/15 08:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AllGreyThumbs said:
There are no sins and no such thing as right and wrong.  Those are just concepts we humans assign to things in order to allow our minds, which are basically computers, to make decisions.  The mind, being a computer and all, needs definitive statements, like right and wrong (sin).

On the other hand the part of us that exists to experience life through our human forms doesn't see specific things as right or wrong.  What is more important is the experiential aspect of something and that can vary greatly from person to person and over time.

For example, in youth, with friends that party, it might be worthwhile to use drugs.  However later in life, with family or other things to think about, the same drugs may seem less meaningful.  But then again, maybe in a middle aged life some partying improves your life and helps remind you that life should be fun.  It all depends on the situation and the kind of experiences you find meaningful.

So is smoking a sin?  No because sins don't really exist.  It's just something that humans invented.

Should you smoke?  Your mind craves a black and white answer that it can make decisions around.  From your soul side, you have to decide if it adds more experiential value to life.  How much do you enjoy it, vs what harm and potential consequences may eventually arise from it.

We are all going to die, so even if something kills you life may overall be better with it.  It's harder to see with smoking, but with drugs and alcohol it may be best for some people to just embrace the experiences they bring and go with it.  Some our best artists and innovators have become what they are because of a certain fearlessness and willingness to go where they are pulled.

Smoking might fit right into a just don't give a fuck, I'm living life to the fullest attitude.  It works for people who are called to live life with that bit of edginess.

On the other hand someone might be called to live peacefully, calmly, and healthily.

There is no easy answer for you.





I think this is a good post but I disagree about one thing. Sin does exist, it is not a human invention it just doesn't exist in the way most people imagine it to. Its not that some actions like smoking are "sins" and others are not, rather if you study the ancient meaning of sin you'll find that is essentially a communication breakdown between our divine selves and our conscious selves or between God and man. The ancient Hebrews defined sin as "missing the mark".

Once we have forgotten our divine source, just about everything we do becomes stained by sin, all our actions, even the good actions to a degree, become self-centered.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: AllGreyThumbs]
    #22133254 - 08/23/15 10:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

There are no sins and no such thing as right and wrong.

So, you're saying that you are a psychopath? Or a sociopath. They're actually synonymous but the second term is a form of Antisocial Personality Disorder. I like the sound of the word psychopath better, plus it translates directly in 'sick-mind.'  Ever see Dr. Michael Stone's scale. He is a reputable source on personality disorders, I read his book.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Evil ; Because your statement above only applies to Pre-Conventional human beings up to about age 2, where 'being bad' means 'getting punished.' After that age, morality develops in a normal human being. But an adult's failure to acknowledge right from wrong based not only upon cultural norms, but based upon an interiorized conscience and empathy, means a profoundly damaged and dangerous psyche.  Lawrence Kohlberg's work on moral development holds true among some 300 different cultures that were investigated. Sin might be a religious term, but good and evil are obviously and observably quite real. They are regarded by psychological as well as legal terms, like 'callous indifference,' for which one can be prosecuted.

Your answer is crudely reductionistic. Humans create computing devices, but machines are not sentient or capable of valuation. Human beings are always moral or immoral, never amoral. Lions killing zebras is amoral. Human beings killing other human beings OR animals is moral or immoral depending upon the motive. This is not moral relativity, it is existential responsibility.  Killing a baby-killer before he kills the baby may be considered a moral act, whereas killing another person out of greed or anger would no doubt be immoral. There are no machine ethics and human beings are not machines I have to tell you, not even those who respond with damaged emotional lives like severe autistics and schizophrenics.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: desant]
    #22133319 - 08/23/15 11:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Nicotine is neurotoxic. It is the basis for many insecticides. In human consumption it affects neurotransmission, is a mood-changing drug, and is highly addictive. Addiction is psychological slavery and all forms of slavery are inimical to human freedom. Spiritual development is characterized in large measure by freedom, freedom to act morally, and 'sinning against the body' is intentionally detracting from its health (read, wholeness and holiness, they're all of the same linguistic and conceptual root). One does not even need to acknowledge a personal God for one to have a spiritual life. Theism is but one concept that, like all God-concepts, 'falls short of the mark.' The word in Greek, hamartia, is an archery metaphor which means that the arrow has literally fallen short of the bullseye on the target. Hamartia translates into the English word 'sin' in the Bible. So sin does not exclusively mean offending a king-like deity. It means intentionally refusing to act according to what one's highest intuitions knows to be proper behavior. It is being untrue to oneself first and foremost. If one has some metaphysical suspicions that our being derives from Being Itself, then one might consider that being untrue, unfaithful to oneself, one's health/wholeness/holiness, is indeed being unfaithful to God. Nihilism, the stance that nothing matters, is one of the two great heresies in Buddhism, (the other being eternalism). For Christianity, such a stance is perhaps best explicated as "despair" by the Danish Christian existentialist philosopher Soren Kierkegaard. Despair is THE great sin against God. Of course, it's all up to each of us to determine a truly human logic, meaning, a logic tempered by faith in a transcendental possibility that people refer in shorthand to as God.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinedesant
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22151009 - 08/27/15 11:23 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

"If smoking isnt allowed in Heaven, i'm not coming!"

Guess who said that without using google.

:gethigh:


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InvisibleToe_Jam
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: desant]
    #22151050 - 08/27/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

If you think that your god might torture you for eternity if you smoke.. You might wanna reconsider what god is.

Just a thought.

Sounds awful petty for a dude who is supposedly full of forgiveness.


--------------------
God lay his finger at the Mouth of the Serpent

March 1984


A pleasing land of drowsy head it was,
Of dreams that wave before the half-shut eye,
And of gay castles in the clouds that pass,
For ever flushing round a summer sky. -Castle of Indolence


Edited by Toe_Jam (08/27/15 11:42 AM)


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Invisiblecaman
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: Toe_Jam]
    #22151829 - 08/27/15 02:44 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Hell no. Well it isn't necessarily a wise nor healthy choice but it's not a sin , just a choice.


Edited by caman (08/27/15 02:47 PM)


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InvisibleCowb0yNeal00
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: desant]
    #22156476 - 08/28/15 12:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

desant said:
And im no talking about weed.

Im talking tobacco, not even normal cigs but electronic cigs. Do you think in the eyes of God it is wrong to smoke e cig?

Funny how stupid entities around me dont want me to smoke em, but many intellectuals and mystics and philosophers smoked. Einstein, Mark Twain, Robert Bruce, Robert Anton Wilson...



why e cigs? i don't get it? troll? why not edit the title to "is smoking e cigs a sin"
:underage:


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Offlinekosmokratorshaman
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: Cowb0yNeal00]
    #22157736 - 08/28/15 05:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Good and evil, right and wrong...manmade concepts. Just because you rationalize something as evil based on your whole life of brainwashing, does not make you correct. Just because someone holds doctorats and is published on a topic also does not make that person correct. I only feel bad, because I have been brainwashed to think it is bad. Something society forces on us and then tries to call the norm.


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I am.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: kosmokratorshaman]
    #22157792 - 08/28/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Moral development occurs in invariant stages in over 300 cultures that were investigated. Lawrence Kolhberg's work remains unsurpassed and while his elaboration of the stages of moral development is a human project, moral development itself is not a "manmade concept," it is part of the phenomenology of human development. Moral relativity is another issue altogether. Oh, having a Doctorate DOES make a difference in the probable accuracy of an investigation, if the study is undertaken with integrity, not for fame or fortune (where there is greater likelihood of fudged results). This it true whether the investigation is based on empirical experimentation or on a historical narrative gleaned from phenomenological reports.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinedesant
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22159758 - 08/29/15 09:02 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Well Cherubim tell me i shouldn't smoke!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: desant]
    #22161462 - 08/29/15 04:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

:popcorn:  Uh-huh. They say anything else?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineAllGreyThumbs
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #22161475 - 08/29/15 04:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

AllGreyThumbs said:
There are no sins and no such thing as right and wrong.  Those are just concepts we humans assign to things in order to allow our minds, which are basically computers, to make decisions.  The mind, being a computer and all, needs definitive statements, like right and wrong (sin).

On the other hand the part of us that exists to experience life through our human forms doesn't see specific things as right or wrong.  What is more important is the experiential aspect of something and that can vary greatly from person to person and over time.

For example, in youth, with friends that party, it might be worthwhile to use drugs.  However later in life, with family or other things to think about, the same drugs may seem less meaningful.  But then again, maybe in a middle aged life some partying improves your life and helps remind you that life should be fun.  It all depends on the situation and the kind of experiences you find meaningful.

So is smoking a sin?  No because sins don't really exist.  It's just something that humans invented.

Should you smoke?  Your mind craves a black and white answer that it can make decisions around.  From your soul side, you have to decide if it adds more experiential value to life.  How much do you enjoy it, vs what harm and potential consequences may eventually arise from it.

We are all going to die, so even if something kills you life may overall be better with it.  It's harder to see with smoking, but with drugs and alcohol it may be best for some people to just embrace the experiences they bring and go with it.  Some our best artists and innovators have become what they are because of a certain fearlessness and willingness to go where they are pulled.

Smoking might fit right into a just don't give a fuck, I'm living life to the fullest attitude.  It works for people who are called to live life with that bit of edginess.

On the other hand someone might be called to live peacefully, calmly, and healthily.

There is no easy answer for you.





I think this is a good post but I disagree about one thing. Sin does exist, it is not a human invention it just doesn't exist in the way most people imagine it to. Its not that some actions like smoking are "sins" and others are not, rather if you study the ancient meaning of sin you'll find that is essentially a communication breakdown between our divine selves and our conscious selves or between God and man. The ancient Hebrews defined sin as "missing the mark".

Once we have forgotten our divine source, just about everything we do becomes stained by sin, all our actions, even the good actions to a degree, become self-centered.




Yes, exactly.  Sin isn't based around any specific act, it is about doing things that separate us from divinity and the rest of life or pull us further from the paths we are born to walk as the best versions of ourselves.  We are on the same page I believe.


--------------------
I only use drugs medicinally.  If I don't my knees hurt from kneeling down.


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OfflineSpiritualWarrior
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: AllGreyThumbs]
    #22162441 - 08/29/15 08:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Does your conscience condemn you for it? If not then its not a sin... Unless you have a warped conscience.


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OfflineAllGreyThumbs
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22164029 - 08/30/15 09:55 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
There are no sins and no such thing as right and wrong.

So, you're saying that you are a psychopath? Or a sociopath. They're actually synonymous but the second term is a form of Antisocial Personality Disorder. I like the sound of the word psychopath better, plus it translates directly in 'sick-mind.'  Ever see Dr. Michael Stone's scale. He is a reputable source on personality disorders, I read his book.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Evil ; Because your statement above only applies to Pre-Conventional human beings up to about age 2, where 'being bad' means 'getting punished.' After that age, morality develops in a normal human being. But an adult's failure to acknowledge right from wrong based not only upon cultural norms, but based upon an interiorized conscience and empathy, means a profoundly damaged and dangerous psyche.  Lawrence Kohlberg's work on moral development holds true among some 300 different cultures that were investigated. Sin might be a religious term, but good and evil are obviously and observably quite real. They are regarded by psychological as well as legal terms, like 'callous indifference,' for which one can be prosecuted.

Your answer is crudely reductionistic. Humans create computing devices, but machines are not sentient or capable of valuation. Human beings are always moral or immoral, never amoral. Lions killing zebras is amoral. Human beings killing other human beings OR animals is moral or immoral depending upon the motive. This is not moral relativity, it is existential responsibility.  Killing a baby-killer before he kills the baby may be considered a moral act, whereas killing another person out of greed or anger would no doubt be immoral. There are no machine ethics and human beings are not machines I have to tell you, not even those who respond with damaged emotional lives like severe autistics and schizophrenics.




Ladies and Gentlemen, witness the computer like human mind at work.  Rather than seeing fellow human beings as pieces of the entirety of life it serpates and defines people based upon arbitrarily assigned definitions.  If psychopath has been defined as without sense of right and wrong then this person must be a psychopath.

Of course that definition of psychopath is completely arbitrary.  It is just what human beings have decided it means.  But a computer like mind needs these kinds of labels in order to interact with life.  It must have each little piece of life sliced up and assigned properties.  It builds internal models of the world so as to be able to understand it.

This is fine.  We need our computer like mind in order to interact with life.  But we should also maintain a stable connection to our inner divinity.  It is through this connection that true empathy arises.  With a solid connection to the rest of life we actually no longer need to obtain moral guidance via human concepts of right and wrong.  Instead we actually feel how our actions affect other parts of life and cannot gain personally by adding suffering to life as a whole.

So it is entirely possible to have true empathy born out of a connection to the rest of life and not use the human concepts of right and wrong.  Of course someone operating from the computer like human mind will be incapable of separating the concepts of right/wrong from empathy despite them being entirely different.  Right and wrong are properties assigned by the human mind.  Empathy is a felt connection to the rest of life.

The use of right and wrong as moral guidance can be problematic.  For example when someone is convinced that they are right they can do things like label other human beings that they don't even know as psychopaths.

Being themselves nothing more than a collection of ideas, "I am this I believe that," someone stuck within the human mind also has a very hard time separating human beings from the ideas that they carry.  For example, note how by I personally, and my ideas where attacked.  Someone with a better connection to their inner divinity would have easily understood that we are more than just our ideas and would have been able to discuss and even debate without directing Ill will toward the human being that is only using their ideas and not attached to them.

Now it may seem like a minor deal to label someone you don't even know a psychopath.  It may not even seem that bad to be unable to comprehend that just because someone has grown beyond right and wrong that they can still have empathy.  However these things are indicative of a soul still stuck deep within the human mind.  Just because today it was only a minor personal attack does not mean that we should stand idly by.

The exact same type of mindset that would see me as a psychopath because I meet some arbitrarily defined collection of properties might also place other people into slots.  I am a psychopath, they are a Jew, they are an infidel.  That slicing up of people into little groups is only one step away from assigning value to those groups.  This group is right, that group is wrong, those people are only....  after that all sorts of nastiness becomes possible as can be seen in human history.

Empathy and a true divine connection means that we will see each other as fellow human beings and understand that our ideas and differences are only very minor things and not who we really are.  Behind the contents of our mind we are all divine beings, a little peice of the totality of creation.  In that regard, in our truest essence we are all the same.  Every other part of life should be treated with the same respect owed to ourselves or to our understanding of God.

Alas, this is impossible to truly understand from a computer like human mind.  Instead it will try to razzle and dazzle with arguments that all look pretty impressive and we'll thought out.  But be careful who you listen to folks.  Computers can make impressive arguments and have even convinced people that it makes sense put people in prison for having plants and mushrooms, or that killing 6,000,000 Jews is a good idea.  All born put of logic and impressive arguments.  It is up to us to listen to our our inner guidance and decide what makes sense and what is just a computer like human mind blowing smoke screens.

P.S. You don't know me at all and you don't know what I am capable of or understand.  You assumed that by my saying that right and wrong are human creations that I have no empathy.  That's a pretty big leap, not at all what I said, and still no excuse to try to force me into a little mental slot for your silly human mind to use.

People do not fit into mental slots because our innate divinity allows us to interact in ways that are different than our mental programming.  You should really try to understand this.  You can label someone anything you would like.  That doesn't mean you actually understand them.


--------------------
I only use drugs medicinally.  If I don't my knees hurt from kneeling down.


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Is smoking a sin?????? [Re: desant]
    #22164628 - 08/30/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

desant said:
And im no talking about weed.

Im talking tobacco, not even normal cigs but electronic cigs. Do you think in the eyes of God it is wrong to smoke e cig?

Funny how stupid entities around me dont want me to smoke em, but many intellectuals and mystics and philosophers smoked. Einstein, Mark Twain, Robert Bruce, Robert Anton Wilson...




Sin means something that causes harm, and cigs does cause harm to the body as pork as well. But pork is only an abomination to ourselves, but not between God and us. And so when you smoke cigs, you are just sinning against yourself.


Leviticus 11:7 And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you.


The laws were made for us to live a very good and healthy life.

Deuteronomy 5:33 Walk in obedience to all that the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.


This is the only sin those that were under the law that is unforgiven, Leviticus 24:16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. But when God's spirit of grace has came, he reminded them what it says about what is written in the laws, Matthew 12:31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven., But since He has came into the world, that they were forgiven of the offense. And to blaspheme means to go against and which everyone are to honor their parents, and God is the true parent that knows what is good for their children.


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