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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing]
#22109895 - 08/19/15 06:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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This is too many quotes so let me make a few posts to show you.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing]
#22109897 - 08/19/15 06:32 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Quote:
healing said: No, you don't get it.
How do I know that what I see with my eyes is real? How could I prove to myself that what I see is reality? [insert your answer] How do I know that [insert your answer] is real? And so on.
It's a pretty simple thought experiment. You're supposed to learn this stuff along with other basic epistemology shit as part of your compulsory education.
Quote:
healing said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
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healing said: I can, look. I deny that. I deny that objects exist in the first place. There is no such thing as an object for there to be. Just think of the implications of skepticism for a bit, dude. It's cute. Nothing can be proven with absolute certainty. All statements are suspect. There's no infallible evidence to prove one's own existence. You can't even be sure that you exist. That's the lesson of the skeptics.
Honestly, this is high school stuff.
Taking skepticism to such absurd extremes is high school stuff, regardless if you feel the objects exist or not, one object next to another is two objects, who cares if they "exist" in the philosophical sense, that has nothing to do with their quantity.
-E. Borodin
I know that. That's entirely beside the point.
We're talking about the social construct of value.
No, we are talking about math, and how skeptical argument can't apply to it in any reasonable sense.
-E. Borodin
Reasonable, yes. Reasonable is an opinion, one with which i agree.
That's the first one^
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
Edited by healing (08/19/15 06:32 AM)
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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing]
#22109899 - 08/19/15 06:32 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Your arguments can apply, but you have to take them to such an absurd extreme that it would be unreasonable...
-E. Borodin
Quote:
healing said: Yes. Again, as long as you recognize that reasonable is your opinion.
That's the second one ^
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
Edited by healing (08/19/15 06:33 AM)
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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing]
#22109901 - 08/19/15 06:33 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
healing said: So I agree with your opinion that values very likely have some concrete existence beyond that which humans perceive.
There's number three ^
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing]
#22109902 - 08/19/15 06:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
healing said: Dude. You're still stuck on the skepticism point I made on page two. We've moved way past that. Did you read about how I believe it's reasonable to believe that numbers have some concrete value beyond human perception? What aren't you getting? Catch up with the conversation or make good on your promise to leave.
There's number four. The one I directly stated to you ^
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing]
#22109905 - 08/19/15 06:35 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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As I said, "reasonable" is your answer. At no point, as I said in my last post, had you admitted that if you had one object and someone handed you another, you would have 2. Quote all you like, but nothing you quote is going to make what I said untrue.
You always phrase it as if there's any doubt. Hence, you're batshit crazy. This is fundamental math.
--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: Shroomslip]
#22109914 - 08/19/15 06:40 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I really am trying to teach you something, dude. Stick with me here because you're getting close. I'm using the word reasonable to make a point, the point being that humans are not infallible. Does that part make sense?
Humans do not know everything, do they? Science and math are not a complete knowledge of the universe right? They are still growing and evolving aren't they?
Our understanding of numbers is still being advanced. It is not complete.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
Edited by healing (08/19/15 06:40 AM)
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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing]
#22109947 - 08/19/15 06:54 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sorry, I'll respond directly to your statements. I am a reasonable person. It is reasonable to say that 1+1=2 and I am a reasonable person, so I agree with basic arithmetic. So you win that one. Chalk that one up for you. 1+1 does in fact equal 2. You proved it!
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
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Shroomslip
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing]
#22109956 - 08/19/15 07:00 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Again you've asked me to catch up and I've already covered this part as well.
Quote:
Shroomslip said: Yes, we can't prove anything with absolute certainty, because we can't even prove that we're "real" however that doesn't apply on the level you're applying it to.
As for the last bit, no our understanding of numbers is not expanding. Not in any sense that's even been hinted at in this thread. It is true there are a number of mathematical formulas that we cannot comprehend or calculate, but our understanding of numbers (the basic building blocks of math) is complete. Everything we do not understand is based on the the digits 0-9 and the functions used to combine those numbers. This is fully understood. It's only once you start throwing extremely complex combinations together that we haven't nailed it down.
--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: psi]
#22109958 - 08/19/15 07:01 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
psi said:
Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
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healing said: It is a series of three symbols which were created by humans. There is no special significance to any group of any symbols of any kind beyond that which is given to them by humans because they are all social constructs and nothing more.
Except numbers which existed before the social constructs, we did not invent math, we discovered it.
3.141592653...(PI)
1.61803398875 (the golden ratio) (phi)
These numbers to have intrinsic universal significance
(The number 9 is spiritually significant in Buddhism, for many reasons, but it's properties being one
Write numbers 1-8, one line running up one line running down as pictured below
1 8 2 7 3 6 4 5 5 4 6 3 7 2 8 1
They become the multiples of 9
18 27 36 45 --- 54 63 72 81
And they all equal 9 when added:
1+8 = 9 2+7 = 9 3+6 = 9 4+5 = 9 5+4 = 9 6+3 = 9 7+2 = 9 8+1 = 9
It's these properties that led man to attribute significance to number 9.)
-E. Borodin
This kind of stuff is all specific to base 10 though, so these are properties of the decimal system more than they are properties of the number 9. I'm pretty sure it works with whatever number is the highest digit in a given base.
In octal for example:
07 in base 8 is 7 in base 10 (7 * 1) 16 in base 8 is 14 in base 10 (7 * 2) 25 in base 8 is 21 in base 10 (7 * 3) 34 in base 8 is 28 in base 10 (7 * 4) 43 in base 8 is 35 in base 10 (7 * 5) 52 in base 8 is 42 in base 10 (7 * 6) 61 in base 8 is 49 in base 10 (7 * 7) 70 in base 8 is 56 in base 10 (7 * 8)
0 + 7 = 7 1 + 6 = 7 2 + 5 = 7 3 + 4 = 7 4 + 3 = 7 5 + 2 = 7 6 + 1 = 7 7 + 0 = 7
I suppose it does, I'm assuming it was the shear symmetry of 9 when expressed this way that lead to its being regarded by spiritual practitioners as sacred, who even built this 9 series into their temples... .. 09 18 27 36 45 -----mirror 54 63 72 81 90
And the sum total of every multiple of 9 = 9.
Then we have PI (3.14159...), which is what you get when you divide the distance around a circle (radius) by the distance across it (diameter), aside from being an infinite number and a curiosity, pi ends up playing an incredibly practical and useful role in math.
And there's the golden ratio (1.61803398875) which is everywhere, and applies to many things...
There are these discovered mathematics in nature that seem to almost play a Devine role in the universe's construction, it's the structure behind what we perceive as chaos..
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
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Nevermind....they are all symmetrical like this...I wonder why they chose 9 then...
-E. Borodin
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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: Shroomslip]
#22109965 - 08/19/15 07:04 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomslip said: Again you've asked me to catch up and I've already covered this part as well.
Quote:
Shroomslip said: Yes, we can't prove anything with absolute certainty, because we can't even prove that we're "real" however that doesn't apply on the level you're applying it to.
As for the last bit, no our understanding of numbers is not expanding. Not in any sense that's even been hinted at in this thread. It is true there are a number of mathematical formulas that we cannot comprehend or calculate, but our understanding of numbers (the basic building blocks of math) is complete. Everything we do not understand is based on the the digits 0-9 and the functions used to combine those numbers. This is fully understood. It's only once you start throwing extremely complex combinations together that we haven't nailed it down.
Yes. Those furthest extremities of mathematic knowledge are what I speak of, and of which I have no understanding, but that's beside the point. We have a very good knowledge of mathematics, but not as of yet a complete understanding of the universe even though science is advancing very quickly.
But I'm talking about our fundamental capacity for understanding of the entirety of humanity. Even with all of our technology, we have a limited capacity to compute, to reason and understand.
We do not, as some say, know the mind of god, and that is the basic premise that I am attempting to convey.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing]
#22109995 - 08/19/15 07:17 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Then you chose the wrong place to try convey it. Those extremities had absolutely nothing to do with the OP, and have no bearing on your repeated attempts to dispute that 1 + 1 = 2. I really don't feel like going back and quoting it, so if you really care, go back and look for yourself, but now you're grasping at straws to justify it all.
Here I'll just quote your first post
Quote:
healing said: It is a series of three symbols which were created by humans. There is no special significance to any group of any symbols of any kind beyond that which is given to them by humans because they are all social constructs and nothing more.
What does THAT have to do with mathematical formulas we have yet to solve? Honestly? You are flat out saying that numbers are meaningless and just a construct of humans, to which I proved wrong in that math exists in nature regardless of some being capable of putting a label or concept to it. Numbers have significance regardless of the human race. Yes humans created "133" but "133" existed loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong before we were here to give it the characters "133".
So here we go round in a circle just like I said in the beginning. You've taught me nothing, though I'll admit I was curious.
You could actually learn something from me if you actually had the open mind you like to advertise in your sig. Start with the documentary I mentioned earlier. It's fascinating to see how numbers weave their way through universe without needing humans to label it.
--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing]
#22110012 - 08/19/15 07:22 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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The idea is that we have a working approximation of the way the universe works which was developed through a tradition of conveyance of knowledge through a variety of means, the sum of which is our society as a whole.
Children do not have an innate knowledge of mathematics and few would be likely to develop something as complex as the furthest reaches of our current understanding of theoretical mathematics on their own, right? Without our society we wouldn't have all of the knowledge we have today.
Someone had to build the schools, someone had to drive the busses. The evolution of our society over thousands of years has resulted in the incomplete system of mathematics and science that we currently have.
All of our understanding relies upon the educational lineage of our society since before Pythagoras or Euclid.
That's what a social construct is. The sum total of the understanding of our universe in the western tradition is a group of concepts that were developed and advanced by the members of our society. Our society as a whole worked together to construct these extremely complex systems of knowledge. They created these amazingly complex social constructs.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
Edited by healing (08/19/15 07:23 AM)
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: Shroomslip]
#22110030 - 08/19/15 07:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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The only part of that argument that even makes any kind of sense is that children don't just know that the character 1 is related to the value of 1. Send a child to live with wolves, and he's going to know to 1 is greater than 0 and 2 is greater than one. He doesn't need to know the arbitrarily chosen word or symbol humans attach to it to understand the value.
All that is a construct, is the symbol used to represent that value. That's it, nothing more. Numbers are numbers. They are near universal constants. I'm not sure how numbers and their values relate to quantum mechanics, but a long of things tend to break down at that level. Pretty much every other single thing we accept as a constant does.
Even math has existed for far longer than schools have. You're trying to argue irrelevant shit again just to make yourself appear valid. Basic math is a benefit to people at all levels. Whether simple farmers/traders/gatherers, or millionaire walstreet goons. The only time the complex shit comes into play is when people are trying to understand more than the basic world they live in. So of course, it's going to require study and schools. But this is 100% irrelevant to the op or your original post which spawned this entire argument. Do I need to quote it again.
--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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psi
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Nevermind....they are all symmetrical like this...I wonder why they chose 9 then...
-E. Borodin
There is some more cool decimal-specific shit with 9s as well. For example,
1/7 = 0.142857 = 142857 / 999999
This kind of thing works out for any rational number whose base-10 representation is a repeating decimal.
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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: Shroomslip]
#22110045 - 08/19/15 07:36 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomslip said: The only part of that argument that even makes any kind of sense is that children don't just know that the character 1 is related to the value of 1. Send a child to live with wolves, and he's going to know to 1 is greater than 0 and 2 is greater than one. He doesn't need to know the arbitrarily chosen word or symbol humans attach to it to understand the value.
All that is a construct, is the symbol used to represent that value. That's it, nothing more. Numbers are numbers. They are near universal constants. I'm not sure how numbers and their values relate to quantum mechanics, but a long of things tend to break down at that level. Pretty much every other single thing we accept as a constant does.
Even math has existed for far longer than schools have. You're trying to argue irrelevant shit again just to make yourself appear valid. Basic math is a benefit to people at all levels. Whether simple farmers/traders/gatherers, or millionaire walstreet goons. The only time the complex shit comes into play is when people are trying to understand more than the basic world they live in. So of course, it's going to require study and schools. But this is 100% irrelevant to the op or your original post which spawned this entire argument. Do I need to quote it again.
I'm attempting to confer with you so that we can stay on the same page. I'm not disagreeing with basic mathematics. I never was. I was simply showing that it's possible for people to disagree with any and every piece of knowledge even if you know it to be true.
But we have a working definition of a social construct right?
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
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Shroomslip
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing] 1
#22110057 - 08/19/15 07:39 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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How many circles do we have to go in. Just get to whatever jaw dropping point you have to make already.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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healing
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: Shroomslip]
#22110078 - 08/19/15 07:46 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's nothing jaw dropping, just high school junior english class stuff you were supposed to learn.
Your society has it's social constructs and other societies have their social constructs and when they disagree they both have their own long lines of storied educational heroes to support whatever beliefs they have. So even though you may have some amazing predictive capabilities that allow you to know the orbits of planets and the decay of radioactive matter, you still don't know that god is the light, or that the middle path is the way, or whatever piece of knowledge it is from whatever other culture it is that you disagree with.
It's just you're dense, so it took a lot posting. Maybe you need to do your high school junior english class again.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
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Shroomslip
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Re: What's the signifigance of the number 133? [Re: healing] 1
#22110106 - 08/19/15 08:00 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Holy fuck. You really drug me through another whole page to say what you had already said? Are you fucking kidding me?
I'm just at a loss for words right now, seriously. You are so beyond retarded it is mind numbing. You have psychedelic induced down syndrome or something.
You want a movie reference?
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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