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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Giftofdeprivation] * 1
    #22210599 - 09/09/15 02:24 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I'm not :wink: I don't think we're parasites. We're just a prolific species and to ensure our continued existence, we just need to be a bit more careful than in the past. I think we're improving though. If you look at how horribly rivers running through cities were polluted over the past centuries were, and how much that has changed, it's a clear sign we are capable of working on things.


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OfflineGiftofdeprivation
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Registered: 07/20/13
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Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: koraks]
    #22210602 - 09/09/15 02:27 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Think all you want, but symbiotically speaking, we are parasites. Yes, we are quite capable of changing that, but as of yet, we're destroying the environment and all life around us. This is not necessarily a factor of our numbers (though if it were, the symbiotic relationship is still the same), but of our habits and means of survival, which tend to involve degrading the value and quality of other lives. ie, confining creatures to disgusting living conditions, and genetically modifying them, not for their own long-term survival, but for our immediate needs.

Pretty much every advanced, western religious belief excludes animals from conscious living/heaven and whatnot. That's pretty telling compared to what's out there and that the western mode thrived pretty well up until now...


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Edited by Giftofdeprivation (09/09/15 02:32 AM)


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Giftofdeprivation]
    #22210611 - 09/09/15 02:38 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I don't really disagree with you, but I also don't think it helps a lot to see ourselves as parasites. I mean, this huge guilt trip that the current wave of environmentalism brings with it isn't necessarily helping. Sure, it's good to think about our long-term survival, but lets also accept that we need to do so primarily for our own sake. I love nature and I would like to see it flourish more so than it does today, and I'm also prepared to change my behavior to some extent to accommodate that. But lets also keep it real and strive for our own happiness. We may have to shift the balance, but I cannot agree with the whole "boohoo humans are such an evil species" vibe.


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Giftofdeprivation]
    #22210619 - 09/09/15 02:46 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I get why you'd draw that conclusion, but I don't really agree with it. If we're parasites, so is every single other form of life on the planet. We're just so prolific that our existence has a larger foot print.

It's really just not feasible for every person on this planet to humanely raise their own animals, nor hunt/gather said animals to sustain. May of worked back when the population was only 1 billion or less, but those days are kinda over.

Besides if you think the model of raising our own animals humanely or hunting would really be better for the ecosystem of Earth as a whole, you obviously haven't really thought about the implications. It takes a lot of land to provide a well balanced diet for an entire family, land that is simply not available in big cities. And that's only one issue. Entire water systems would soon become contaminated because waste wouldn't be able to be effectively diverted. Not without destroying environments to build complex delivery systems. Your herd of cows, pigs and goats aren't going to wait in line to use a toilet tied to a single drainage point. I mean I could go a lot deeper if I felt like it. But what you propose would quickly turn into pure chaos.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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OfflineGiftofdeprivation
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Registered: 07/20/13
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Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Shroomslip]
    #22210632 - 09/09/15 03:02 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

@koraks: I think that's just 'cause you're playing for team human. We are terrible creatures and especially western civilization and city living is highly destructive to EVERY other living creature. Including the rural folk

Shroomslip:
And now we've come full circle. There are non-parasitic symbiotic relationships, but yeah, if you gotta eat, you're probably eating another living creature. :shrug: good point.

The reason we can't do all that stuff, is because we have found destructive ways of living, which helped us overproduce, and now we're too plentiful to do things the right way. I honestly do think we need a good genocide to get back to healthier numbers, but that's what the dude in the video thought at the beginning about (whatever species of livestock that was)., so :shrug:

But yeah, no, I think anarchoprimitivism has merit, like any other view. Will it be our final solution, no, hopefully that's colonization outside of earth. Astroid mining could help a lot, but we're probably too stupid to find answers here in time. Again, :shrug: lol

I'm not sure what you had meant by the sewage stuff, Slip. I think I'm slipping.


--------------------

Looking for recipes? Have some recipes to share?
Please post what you have in the official cooking thread for Pubbers!
HERE!
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Posters Beware!


Edited by Giftofdeprivation (09/09/15 03:07 AM)


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Giftofdeprivation] * 1
    #22210635 - 09/09/15 03:06 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I know about white guilt, but this is 'human guilt'.


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OfflinePsychonauttydread
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Registered: 08/28/15
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Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Beanhead]
    #22210636 - 09/09/15 03:06 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Beanhead said:
Quote:

RanOutOfWeed said:
:facepalm3:


I've grown quite bored of arguing with idiots.

Good luck with your ignorance




Shut up spreader of false egg information





For real eggs save lives

1 hard boiled eggy


choline35%

selenium28%

biotin27%

vitamin B1223%

vitamin B220%

molybdenum19%

iodine18%

pantothenic acid14%

protein13%

phosphorus12%

vitamin D11%

vitamin A8%


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:tripmolecule::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon: :peyotespectrum: :gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon: :mushroom2: :gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::realpacman:


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Giftofdeprivation]
    #22210647 - 09/09/15 03:16 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

If everyone and their mother is raising their own animals and doing things the "natural way" that is going to be a lot of animal shit everywhere, which eventually runs off into rivers and streams. This in turn can pollute bodies of water that other animals thrive in, and start to kill them off. In smaller quantities not a big deal, but with all that would be pumped into the system with everyone raising their meat the humane way (free grazing and what not), the run off is going to grow to be a pretty huge issue. We're not talking animal concentrations in which nature "intended". The number would be substantially higher. Herbivore waste is pretty good for balancing an ecosystem in healthy quantities. But what we got in the end would be much higher.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Shroomslip]
    #22210671 - 09/09/15 03:42 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Agroecology is fun.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Giftofdeprivation]
    #22210674 - 09/09/15 03:45 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Giftofdeprivation said:
@koraks: I think that's just 'cause you're playing for team human. We are terrible creatures and especially western civilization and city living is highly destructive to EVERY other living creature. Including the rural folk



I'm most certainly playing for team human! I don't need to be permanently guilt tripped to make an effort for finding a good balance in our existence. And I think it's important to keep an eye on who and what we are in all this. We're humans and I believe we should primarily act in our own interest, and with a focus on the long term.

The reason why we're running into resource depletion issues is not because we found a dramatic way of existing, it's because we are so immensely successful. The next step should be to translate that succes to the rest of nature (I still think we are part of it and not a separate entity), which will be in our own interest as well

Given the numbers in which we are present on this planet, I also think that autarky is a bad idea that will prove to make matters much worse for both humans and the rest of the ecosphere. It was a viable option when there were 100 million of us, but running in the billions, it's simply unsustainable and would constitute a tremendous ecological and humanitarian disaster. The way forward is to keep on the path of efficiency, but with a renewed focus on long-term viability of our agricultural and industrial production. I personally think that moderation in the consumption of certain foods, in particular beef as well as other types of meat, is an essential building block of such an approach.


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
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Loc: Onypeirophóros
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Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: koraks]
    #22210739 - 09/09/15 04:46 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

i wouldn't say self-sufficiency is a bad idea. but imposing independent economy solo, that's obviously stupid.


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Registered: 04/10/14
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Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Shroomslip]
    #22210752 - 09/09/15 04:53 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Tneshit would be spread out if most people had a few animals, as opposed to pools of shit that will not just rot away in a few weeks


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,860
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: Shroomslip]
    #22211222 - 09/09/15 08:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
If everyone and their mother is raising their own animals and doing things the "natural way" that is going to be a lot of animal shit everywhere, which eventually runs off into rivers and streams. This in turn can pollute bodies of water that other animals thrive in, and start to kill them off. In smaller quantities not a big deal, but with all that would be pumped into the system with everyone raising their meat the humane way (free grazing and what not), the run off is going to grow to be a pretty huge issue. We're not talking animal concentrations in which nature "intended". The number would be substantially higher. Herbivore waste is pretty good for balancing an ecosystem in healthy quantities. But what we got in the end would be much higher.




CAFOs present a much greater ecological risk than moving herds.  With CAFOs you end up with vast lakes of piss and shit.  It's hard to process without massive digester systems(although digesters can be used to produce and collect CH4).  The shit and piss lakes always overflow when it rains causing major runoff problems.  That's the irony.  Consolidating the animal shit actually made it harder to deal with.


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Registered: 04/10/14
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Re: Eat more meat if you want to save the world [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22212271 - 09/09/15 01:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps we should throw some of that septic bacteria powder out there?


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