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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,854
Loc: Foreign Lands
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SMOKERS UNITE!
#22100556 - 08/16/15 09:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cigarette smokers make up approx. 18% of the population http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/adult_data/cig_smoking/index.htm#national
Quote:
Nearly 18 of every 100 U.S. adults aged 18 years or older (17.8%) currently smoke cigarettes. This means an estimated 42.1 million adults in the United States currently smoke cigarettes.1
It varies from state to state but still hovers around 10% in the lowest smoking states.
Quote:
Current smoking ranged from about 10 of every 100 adults in Utah (10.3%) to about 27 of every 100 adults in West Virginia (27.3%).3
What other group of people comprising 18% of the population is as politically marginalized as smokers? Its time for smokers to cross party lines, and unite as a voting bloc to protect our interests. Its time to tell the politicians "No, i won't pay another dollar per pack under the auspices of funding anti tobacco advertisements, or any other thing. Make someone else pay this time" The next time your city or state passes a tobacco tax, i say, start robbing random strangers for the dollar unless they can show you their pack. Ok, maybe we shouldn't rob people, but if we keep going like this, we'll all be paying 20 bucks a pack before the decade is over. Something has to be done. Let's do it at the polls. write your congressman and tell them how you feel about more tobacco taxes. We're still 18%; lets make it a concerted 18% and some shit could go our way for awhile, until the backlash.
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impatientguy
Ganjalf a very mighty lab wizard



Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 5,054
Loc: USA
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Stinky cancer sticks. Gross
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,854
Loc: Foreign Lands
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fuck off, 82 percenter!
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impatientguy
Ganjalf a very mighty lab wizard



Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 5,054
Loc: USA
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Haha But I bet we both smoke weed so hey we can unite in that thread!
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Loc: Foreign Lands
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Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
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I only smoke tobacco for religious reasons, but I can understand your frustration. Honestly when I buy tobacco, I don't pay any taxes... I only smoke once a week maybe so I don't buy that often.
Why not just get into rolling your own cigarettes or pipe smoking? You can buy an ounce of quality loose tobacco(or blends) for like 15 dollars.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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I would say atheists are more marginalized, and we're not even a threat to public well-being. The opposite, actually.
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Achillita
Back to the basics



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Around certain groups of people, atheists can be "outed', but personally i haven't seen such things happen in years. I've seen people go up to cigarette smokers they don't know and tell them they are doing a disgusting thing though.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Well I live in the South where cigarettes are God and atheists are the devil.
When i lived up north things were different.
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Achillita
Back to the basics



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I live in Texas... And I used to live in Oklahoma... It's worse in Oklahoma, but the younger generation doesn't really care to much there. The older generation is more likely to marginalize you, but even then it's rare nowadays.
The times are a changing.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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As a smoker and a former smoker and someone again trying to quit smoking, I disagree. Smoking creates a burden on society. If I smoke I'm more likely to miss work. More likely to get sick and need health care. More likely to get cancer.
These things have a very real economic cost. I have no problem paying the 'sin' tax on smokes, when I do smoke.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Unfortunately for smokers, the few ruined it for the many.
When assholes tell those near them that smoking is their right and they don't give a fuck about the non-smokers... when smokers flick their butts willy-nilly... when smokers empty their ashtrays in parking lots... when non-smokers have to walk through a cloud to enter buildings... they got what they had coming to them. This, of course, brought along the considerate smokers.
As for the taxes? I'm greatly in favor of those who smoke, paying more to smoke. That goes for any activity that incurs greater healthcare costs.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,854
Loc: Foreign Lands
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yeah? better start adding sin taxes to junk food then. Maybe a 50% tax on cars and motorcycles too. Definitely better raise the price of alcohol by at least a buck per beer. Skateboards? tax'em harder (to reduce healthcare costs). Shoes that don't qualify as non-slip? tax 'em. Glass? tax it, someone might cut themselves. For sure we should have hiking, camping, and swimming taxes since those are all activities that can lead to higher healthcare costs. not to mention the public cost of search and rescue missions. Let's go ahead and tax bb guns and slingshots extra too (you could put an eye out kid) We need more plastic taxes too, the toxins released during manufacture almost have to increase heathcare costs right? let's see here, how about a mirror tax? if people couldn't see themselves, they would have less body image issues. think of the money we could save if there were fewer eating disorders. did i miss anything?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: did i miss anything?
Yes. You missed quite a lot. Trans-fats. MSG. Large sodas. Salt and much, much more.
Once Americans were forced to pay for healthcare and/or insurance for others... it became everyones business.
It's only going to get worse. More and more things will be deemed too dangerous for our own good.
Feel-gooders wanted us all to look out for one another. Well lookout... that will sooner or later smack them upside the head.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Alcohol is taxed. Gas taxes cover cars which mostly goes towards roads. I support taxing sugar, as a parent I'm tired of it being added to ninty percent of our food.
It's always been everybody's business. Unless you're suggesting hospitals should refuse emergency care to the uninsured rather than absorbing the cost. If you are it's a policy that predates Obamacare.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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pbs is right about this. Not only the fact smokers have more health care costs which the rest of us are forced to pay for, plus the lost productivity, it also harms non smokers. Second hand smoke is extremely harmful. You go into a cab and it reeks of tobacco fumes, same with many hotel rooms, and other public places.
I am in favor of more sin taxes on booze, cigs, and sugar. I would tax the hell out of hfcs's since they have been shown to be the most dangerous. Make pot legal and tax it. We can always grow our own if govt is too greedy.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Loc: Foreign Lands
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tax and spend, right stones?
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
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Taxes on crap that people not only do not need but which harms both them and society are an excellent target for taxes. Or being prohibited but its better to allow them and tax them enough that society is not paying the cost.
We also need to tax countries that practice predatory pricing and dump their crappy products on us.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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oh? are you the supreme arbiter of what is necessary or harmful?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Quote:
ballsalsa said: oh? are you the supreme arbiter of what is necessary or harmful?
The CDC is in this country. Sugar, smoking, and alcohol are definitely on the list.
I also agree with Stoney on trade tariffs. We're on a roll today
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: oh? are you the supreme arbiter of what is necessary or harmful?
The CDC is in this country. Sugar, smoking, and alcohol are definitely on the list.
I also agree with Stoney on trade tariffs. We're on a roll today 
Alright!
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Centerfinger
George Clooney is a Spy!



Registered: 04/20/12
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yay, more taxes, that's the ticket. Lets take it out on the minority smokers, they only make up 18%. Obese people are in the minority too (35% or so), they drive up health care costs, so lets tax the hell out of their fast food. Easy argument for me to make since I have a normal BMI.
I concur with Ballsalsa on this one. Where do you draw the line?
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>Where do you draw the line?
If a group is imposing costs on society then they should be required to pay those costs. Be it smokers, drinkers, fast food eaters, etc. Make the cost of the item equal the actual cost to society and all is fair.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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how about hikers? hikers and campers use emergency rescue services more than most. and search and rescue is not cheap. should hikers and campers be forced to pay the costs of emergency rescue services? how should we force them to pay? higher taxes on hiking boots? maybe on tents? canteens?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (08/21/15 05:24 PM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,854
Loc: Foreign Lands
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right, well, over here in civilization, we recognize that it is in the public interest for the public to pay for emergency services. Otherwise, you end up with people who die because they are afraid of the cost of a 911 call.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: right, well, over here in civilization, we recognize that it is in the public interest for the public to pay for emergency services. Otherwise, you end up with people who die because they are afraid of the cost of a 911 call.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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all you want. i'll right back. are you actually trying to make a case for individual payment for emergency services? That might work in the boonies, but around here, there are too many emergencies. The purpose of public infrastructure (like fire dept. police dept. etc.) is to see to the needs of the public. its called public infrastructure because the public pays for it. bottom line. should only the wealthy receive emergency services? or do you think poor people should be able to call for help as well?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Your strawman argument was the dumbest thing I've read all day. And I've read some really dumb shit. Sorry you're upset about paying taxes on smoking. I was pissed when Obama closed the loophole on roll your owns.
I got over it.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Insurance often covers patches by the way. Talk to your Doctor. If you don't like going to the Doctor Walmart sells knock off patches for about $25 a box. At two weeks a box it's a lot cheaper than smoking. You can cut the patches in half when and if you decide to step down to save more money.
I get it man, smoking is an expensive habit. It's expensive for everyone as a whole which is why it's heavily taxed. But there are alternatives and everyone wants to help you quit.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,854
Loc: Foreign Lands
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ok, you don't like the strawman? let's debate the real issue then. Do you think its right to shift a greater and greater tax burden on a single minority of disenfranchised voters, or do you think that maybe the costs of society should be paid by society? Unfair, predatory taxation puts poor smokers into a downward spiral. I'm not saying the things should be tax free, but when more than half the cost of a commodity is in the form of taxes, something is very wrong. If we were talking about orange juice or bacon nobody would have the balls to say "add another dollar tax on those dirty bacon eaters" but since smoking has been deemed distasteful in american society, everyone thinks its just fine and dandy to thumb smokers under. Junkies can get free needles and syringes, but i have to pay exorbitant taxes to have a cigarette. yeah, that makes sense.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
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>Do you think its right to shift a greater and greater tax burden on a single minority of disenfranchised voters, or do you think that maybe the costs of society should be paid by society?
Your minority is the one creating the problem, yes, they should pay for it. BTW, its not the costs of society, its a free will choice on the part of people to take up and continue a nasty habit which harms everyone around them.
>Unfair, predatory taxation puts poor smokers into a downward spiral.
It is fair, if a smoker is poor, the higher taxes will encourage them to quit the nasty habit. While having society subsidize, to a limited degree, the costs of emergency rooms might be good policy, subsidizing smokers is not a good use of public funds. Why don't we just pay them to smoke?
>when more than half the cost of a commodity is in the form of taxes, something is very wrong
Only half? I agree that is wrong, the taxes are way too low.
>If we were talking about orange juice or bacon nobody would have the balls to say "add another dollar tax on those dirty bacon eaters"
Orange juice does not harm anyone, bacon, might not be the greatest food but there is no second hand bacon smoke. Speaking of which, they should outlaw outdoor grills. They smell like someone baking shit.
>since smoking has been deemed distasteful in american society, everyone thinks its just fine and dandy to thumb smokers under. Junkies can get free needles and syringes, but i have to pay exorbitant taxes to have a cigarette. yeah, that makes sense.
So you expect the rest of us to subsidize your nasty habit? Junkies commit crime to get more drugs, giving them needles and junk keeps the damage down. I have not yet seen a junkie force anyone to sniff some heroin or throw it around so much it was unavoidable.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: ok, you don't like the strawman? let's debate the real issue then. Do you think its right to shift a greater and greater tax burden on a single minority of disenfranchised voters, or do you think that maybe the costs of society should be paid by society? Unfair, predatory taxation puts poor smokers into a downward spiral. I'm not saying the things should be tax free, but when more than half the cost of a commodity is in the form of taxes, something is very wrong. If we were talking about orange juice or bacon nobody would have the balls to say "add another dollar tax on those dirty bacon eaters" but since smoking has been deemed distasteful in american society, everyone thinks its just fine and dandy to thumb smokers under. Junkies can get free needles and syringes, but i have to pay exorbitant taxes to have a cigarette. yeah, that makes sense.
Talk to a lawyer and see if you can sue the people responsible. There's class action lawsuits against the tobacco industry that happen all over the country and they often settle out of court. I don't know if your case would qualify as damages but I'm not a lawyer 
As I pointed out there's alternatives and insurance will often cover those alternatives because it's much cheaper than you continuing to smoke.
If tobacco is really that important to you grow some. Seriously. It's an MAOI and has a lot of other medicinal properties. It's used heavily in Ayahuasca ceremonies. If you want to get in touch with the plant do it, no one is stopping you.
If you want to continue your consumer driven consumption of it you're going to have to pay taxes.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,854
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Quote:
Junkies commit crime to get more drugs
yes, lets subsidize junkies so they commit more crimes to get more drugs. brilliant.
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bacon, might not be the greatest food but there is no second hand bacon smoke
i'm calling bullshit on this one. ever been in a diner? if you can't smell the second hand bacon smoke, there is something wrong with you.
Quote:
It is fair, if a smoker is poor, the higher taxes will encourage them to quit the nasty habit.
lets start adding taxes to vehicles. (not just sales tax, and not fuel taxes either, those pay for roads, not healthcare) If the driver is poor, it will encourage them to quit their nasty driving habit and ride a bike. then the rest of us won't have to deal with the increased healthcare and other costs associated with driving. what? you want the public to subsidize your destructive driving habit?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
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If you feel the local diner is producing too much bacon smoke and lowering your property values pressure your city council to raise their taxes and reinvest that money in parks and other shit near you to keep your property values up.
If you're suggesting that bacon smoke is creating a negative cost on our health as a whole and should be taxed make a case.
Personally I'd avoid bacon smoke and go straight to the bacon. But seriously don't because I love bacon.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>yes, lets subsidize junkies so they commit more crimes to get more drugs.
Giving them the drugs has caused junkies to stop crime. Its worked in a number of countries.
>ever been in a diner?
I try to avoid them. If they are creating smoke, then fine the hell out of them.
>lets start adding taxes to vehicles. (not just sales tax, and not fuel taxes either, those pay for roads, not healthcare) If the driver is poor, it will encourage them to quit their nasty driving habit and ride a bike.
Start? They have been doing that for a long time. A gas tax for health care might be a good idea. But poor people need cars to get to their jobs. You want poor people to die of hunger? I thought you were a leftist.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
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Second hand smoke isn't dangerous unless you are directly downwind from a smoker, or in a closed space with someone smoking. YOu know what's much more dangerous then that?
Pollution from cars and factories. Cars are common and contribute to the majority of air pollution. Should everyone driving a car get taxed heavily on gas?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Quote:
Achillita said: Second hand smoke isn't dangerous unless you are directly downwind from a smoker, or in a closed space with someone smoking. YOu know what's much more dangerous then that?
Pollution from cars and factories. Cars are common and contribute to the majority of air pollution. Should everyone driving a car get taxed heavily on gas?
Gas is taxed. Most of this money goes towards road maintenance, lights, etc. We're passing more and more taxes on carbon emissions everyday.
As far as second hand smoke. It's only part of the reason smokes are heavily taxed but yes, smoking in an inclosed space does cause problems, especially for the children of smokers who have higher than average asthma rates and other smoking related illnesses.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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