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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22123408 - 08/21/15 04:45 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
oh? are you the supreme arbiter of what is necessary or harmful?




The CDC is in this country.  Sugar, smoking, and alcohol are definitely on the list.

I also agree with Stoney on trade tariffs.  We're on a roll today :laugh:




Alright!

:highfive:


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineCenterfinger
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22123413 - 08/21/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

yay, more taxes, that's the ticket.  Lets take it out on the minority smokers, they only make up 18%.  Obese people are in the minority too (35% or so), they drive up health care costs, so lets tax the hell out of their fast food.  Easy argument for me to make since I have a normal BMI.

I concur with Ballsalsa on this one.  Where do you draw the line?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: Centerfinger]
    #22123530 - 08/21/15 05:10 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>Where do you draw the line?

If a group is imposing costs on society then they should be required to pay those costs. Be it smokers, drinkers, fast food eaters, etc. Make the cost of the item equal the actual cost to society and all is fair.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22123553 - 08/21/15 05:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

how about hikers?  hikers and campers use emergency rescue services more than most.  and search and rescue is not cheap.  should hikers and campers be forced to pay the costs of emergency rescue services? how should we force them to pay?  higher taxes on hiking boots?  maybe on tents?  canteens?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22123561 - 08/21/15 05:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (08/21/15 05:24 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22123656 - 08/21/15 05:46 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

right, well, over here in civilization, we recognize that it is in the public interest for the public to pay for emergency services.  Otherwise, you end up with people who die because they are afraid of the cost of a 911 call.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22123790 - 08/21/15 06:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
right, well, over here in civilization, we recognize that it is in the public interest for the public to pay for emergency services.  Otherwise, you end up with people who die because they are afraid of the cost of a 911 call.




:huxleyfacepalm:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22123900 - 08/21/15 06:45 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

:huxleyfacepalm: all you want.  i'll :picard: right back.  are you actually trying to make a case for individual payment for emergency services?  That might work in the boonies, but around here, there are too many emergencies.  The purpose of public infrastructure (like fire dept. police dept. etc.) is to see to the needs of the public. its called public infrastructure because the public pays for it.  bottom line.  should only the wealthy receive emergency services?  or do you think poor people should be able to call for help as well?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22123944 - 08/21/15 07:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Your strawman argument was the dumbest thing I've read all day.  And I've read some really dumb shit.  Sorry you're upset about paying taxes on smoking.  I was pissed when Obama closed the loophole on roll your owns.

I got over it.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Posts: 1,888
Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22123963 - 08/21/15 07:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Insurance often covers patches by the way.  Talk to your Doctor.  If you don't like going to the Doctor Walmart sells knock off patches for about $25 a box.  At two weeks a box it's a lot cheaper than smoking. You can cut the patches in half when and if you decide to step down to save more money.

I get it man, smoking is an expensive habit.  It's expensive for everyone as a whole which is why it's heavily taxed.  But there are alternatives and everyone wants to help you quit.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22123978 - 08/21/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

ok, you don't like the strawman?  let's debate the real issue then.  Do you think its right to shift a greater and greater tax burden on a single minority of disenfranchised voters, or do you think that maybe the costs of society should be paid by society?  Unfair, predatory taxation puts poor smokers into a downward spiral.  I'm not saying the things should be tax free, but when more than half the cost of a commodity is in the form of taxes, something is very wrong.  If we were talking about orange juice or bacon nobody would have the balls to say "add another dollar tax on those dirty bacon eaters" but since smoking has been deemed distasteful in american society, everyone thinks its just fine and dandy to thumb smokers under.  Junkies can get free needles and syringes, but i have to pay exorbitant taxes to have a cigarette.  yeah, that makes sense.


--------------------


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22124044 - 08/21/15 07:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>Do you think its right to shift a greater and greater tax burden on a single minority of disenfranchised voters, or do you think that maybe the costs of society should be paid by society?

Your minority is the one creating the problem, yes, they should pay for it. BTW, its not the costs of society, its a free will choice on the part of people to take up and continue a nasty habit which harms everyone around them.

>Unfair, predatory taxation puts poor smokers into a downward spiral.

It is fair, if a smoker is poor, the higher taxes will encourage them to quit the nasty habit. While having society subsidize, to a limited degree, the costs of emergency rooms might be good policy, subsidizing smokers is not a good use of public funds. Why don't we just pay them to smoke?

>when more than half the cost of a commodity is in the form of taxes, something is very wrong

Only half? I agree that is wrong, the taxes are way too low.

>If we were talking about orange juice or bacon nobody would have the balls to say "add another dollar tax on those dirty bacon eaters"

Orange juice does not harm anyone, bacon, might not be the greatest food but there is no second hand bacon smoke. Speaking of which, they should outlaw outdoor grills. They smell like someone baking shit.

>since smoking has been deemed distasteful in american society, everyone thinks its just fine and dandy to thumb smokers under.  Junkies can get free needles and syringes, but i have to pay exorbitant taxes to have a cigarette.  yeah, that makes sense.

So you expect the rest of us to subsidize your nasty habit? Junkies commit crime to get more drugs, giving them needles and junk keeps the damage down. I have not yet seen a junkie force anyone to sniff some heroin or throw it around so much it was unavoidable.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22124099 - 08/21/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
ok, you don't like the strawman?  let's debate the real issue then.  Do you think its right to shift a greater and greater tax burden on a single minority of disenfranchised voters, or do you think that maybe the costs of society should be paid by society?  Unfair, predatory taxation puts poor smokers into a downward spiral.  I'm not saying the things should be tax free, but when more than half the cost of a commodity is in the form of taxes, something is very wrong.  If we were talking about orange juice or bacon nobody would have the balls to say "add another dollar tax on those dirty bacon eaters" but since smoking has been deemed distasteful in american society, everyone thinks its just fine and dandy to thumb smokers under.  Junkies can get free needles and syringes, but i have to pay exorbitant taxes to have a cigarette.  yeah, that makes sense.




Talk to a lawyer and see if you can sue the people responsible.  There's class action lawsuits against the tobacco industry that happen all over the country and they often settle out of court.  I don't know if your case would qualify as damages but I'm not a lawyer :shrug:

As I pointed out there's alternatives and insurance will often cover those alternatives because it's much cheaper than you continuing to smoke.

If tobacco is really that important to you grow some.  Seriously.  It's an MAOI and has a lot of other medicinal properties.  It's used heavily in Ayahuasca ceremonies.  If you want to get in touch with the plant do it, no one is stopping you.

If you want to continue your consumer driven consumption of it you're going to have to pay taxes.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22124114 - 08/21/15 07:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Junkies commit crime to get more drugs



yes, lets subsidize junkies so they commit more crimes to get more drugs.  brilliant.

Quote:

bacon, might not be the greatest food but there is no second hand bacon smoke




i'm calling bullshit on this one.  ever been in a diner?  if you can't smell the second hand bacon smoke, there is something wrong with you.

Quote:


It is fair, if a smoker is poor, the higher taxes will encourage them to quit the nasty habit.




lets start adding taxes to vehicles. (not just sales tax, and not fuel taxes either, those pay for roads, not healthcare)  If the driver is poor, it will encourage them to quit their nasty driving habit and ride a bike.  then the rest of us won't have to deal with the increased healthcare and other costs associated with driving.  what? you want the public to subsidize your destructive driving habit?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22124262 - 08/21/15 08:10 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

If you feel the local diner is producing too much bacon smoke and lowering your property values pressure your city council to raise their taxes and reinvest that money in parks and other shit near you to keep your property values up.

If you're suggesting that bacon smoke is creating a negative cost on our health as a whole and should be taxed make a case.

Personally I'd avoid bacon smoke and go straight to the bacon.  But seriously don't because I love bacon.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22124452 - 08/21/15 08:51 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>yes, lets subsidize junkies so they commit more crimes to get more drugs.

Giving them the drugs has caused junkies to stop crime. Its worked in a number of countries.

>ever been in a diner?

I try to avoid them. If they are creating smoke, then fine the hell out of them.

>lets start adding taxes to vehicles. (not just sales tax, and not fuel taxes either, those pay for roads, not healthcare)  If the driver is poor, it will encourage them to quit their nasty driving habit and ride a bike.

Start? They have been doing that for a long time. A gas tax for health care might be a good idea. But poor people need cars to get to their jobs. You want poor people to die of hunger? I thought you were a leftist.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineAchillita
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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22124735 - 08/21/15 09:59 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Second hand smoke isn't dangerous unless you are directly downwind from a smoker, or in a closed space with someone smoking. YOu know what's much more dangerous then that?

Pollution from cars and factories. Cars are common and contribute to the majority of air pollution. Should everyone driving a car get taxed heavily on gas?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: SMOKERS UNITE! [Re: Achillita]
    #22125808 - 08/22/15 07:38 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Achillita said:
Second hand smoke isn't dangerous unless you are directly downwind from a smoker, or in a closed space with someone smoking. YOu know what's much more dangerous then that?

Pollution from cars and factories. Cars are common and contribute to the majority of air pollution. Should everyone driving a car get taxed heavily on gas?




Gas is taxed.  Most of this money goes towards road maintenance, lights, etc.  We're passing more and more taxes on carbon emissions everyday.

As far as second hand smoke.  It's only part of the reason smokes are heavily taxed but yes, smoking in an inclosed space does cause problems, especially for the children of smokers who have higher than average asthma rates and other smoking related illnesses.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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