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Invisiblerolear8
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: tryptkaloids]
    #22102870 - 08/17/15 01:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I was thinking in do the same, not sure if the extra work worth it tho. Op let us know how it goes once you taste it.


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Offlineguyute22
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: rolear8]
    #22103206 - 08/17/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

one shot would equal a 2.5 g trip, though.  Still not bad!


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OfflineHanz
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: guyute22]
    #22106040 - 08/18/15 10:06 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quoted from my grow log:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22101633#22101633
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
The actives are soluble in water a tincture would be difficult. You can use vodka but its the 60%/water that helps the 40% alcohol doesn't matter at all. If you try to boil it down the alcohol mostly all evaporates off and Idk how well you can boil down the tea.

Your best bet may be trying to get as many cubes into as little water as possible. Then make ice cubes out of them and just swallow if small enough




Yes, so I'm in doubt between the water (=tea) and ethanol extraction methods. Now you say the alcohol doesn't matter at all. But then why do crystal extraction methods use (m)ethanol?

Perhaps the (m)ethanol is better at actually extracting, while water is better for obtaining a clear solution without crystals? 

I am now also evaporating part of the extract down to dry crystals, and will test whether they are soluble in water. Pics tomorrow.


--------------------
Small scale alternative parties rich in empathy and extravagance. Happen to know of one in the vicinity of Amsterdam? PM me my dear fellow. I love to meet some other freaks.

Oh and, if you can,.. embrace the nyctomorph. It needs you.


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Offlinetryptkaloids
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: Hanz]
    #22106681 - 08/18/15 01:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

again, I suggest taking a look at the link I posted. he utilizes the water solubility and the preservative effects of the alcohol.


--------------------
"Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage
Flowchart for Recommended plan of action.
Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms
Use the Damn search engine
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Pick a book, Make some chips!
Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
 


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OfflineHanz
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: tryptkaloids]
    #22106810 - 08/18/15 01:44 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

tryptkaloids said:
again, I suggest taking a look at the link I posted. he utilizes the water solubility and the preservative effects of the alcohol.




Oops, getting behind on this, only did a quick peek on it, .. reading it better now.


--------------------
Small scale alternative parties rich in empathy and extravagance. Happen to know of one in the vicinity of Amsterdam? PM me my dear fellow. I love to meet some other freaks.

Oh and, if you can,.. embrace the nyctomorph. It needs you.


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Offlinetryptkaloids
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: Hanz]
    #22106845 - 08/18/15 01:54 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

the only thing is he's doing medicinal mushrooms so the temps are way high.. I don't think you want your cubes that hot


--------------------
"Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage
Flowchart for Recommended plan of action.
Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms
Use the Damn search engine
After you know what you're doing, take a break 
Pick a book, Make some chips!
Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
 


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OfflineHanz
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: tryptkaloids]
    #22127139 - 08/22/15 01:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, here's the report people.

Last night was certainly fun, but the extraction is not a success yet.

Two reasons for that:
1) the potency of the extract was less than I expected
2) the toxicity of the alcohol and its side effects were higher than I expected.

20:00 I wanted to start slow. My GF and I each ingested 10ml of the extract, this corresponds to a maximum of 1.7 gram dried cubes. We mixed the extract with some fruit juice. I underestimated the amount of alcohol in the juice. I don't like the taste of it very much. I only ever drink pure scotch malt. The juice tasted terrible. Plus, shooting the whole glass of spiked juice gave me rather a stronger buzz than I wanted.

20:30 On a +1 experience, but the body load is very strong. Almost feels like being stoned on bad weed. No high. It is bothering me. We decide to wait a little for the second shot.

21:00 We decide to go for an open eye trip. No lying down tonight. Instead we go outside. It is lovely outside, nice warm summer evening. When we feel safe on the plateau we go back in for the second shot.

21:30 Each ingested another 10ml of the extract. It is now dark outside, but still very nice. The body load from the second amount of alcohol is again very strong. It doesn't interact nice with the psilocybin at all. Arms and legs feel heavy, joints feel heavy, head feels heavy. Still we decide to go outside again. There is a nice and very quiet square near where I live, it has a lot of birds, and trees with christmas lights.

22:00 The second batch is coming on. This corresponds upping the dose to about 3.3 grams. We are going to a +2 level. Still less than I expected, but I decide against taking more because the body load is so strong, presumably from the alcohol interaction effect.

22:30 Some very nice things happen. There is some kind of big sailing festival going on in my town with hundreds of boats and ships, and right now they have their huge fireworks show. We can just about see the top of it through the trees. Suddenly a cat comes up to me, jumps on my lap, and seeks refuge from the fireworks' noise. It is great to have a purring cat surprise me while at this tripping level. We laugh, and it seems happy too.

23:00 We are now at a comfortable +2. Nothing very special, but the good thing is that the side effects are now over. This is a big relief. Sadly, it is also the reason why we decide not to take any more. Taking the third 10ml would again give us 45 minutes of heavy body load from the alcohol. We ride it out from here on. There are cev's when we give them the chance, but no oev's.

0:30 We are starting to come down. This is sooner than if we had eaten the shrooms straight, or made tea. I start to feel very tired, even though it is not my usual bedtime yet. This too is the alcohol. We go inside, and lie down. There is still some high left. An hour later we are sound asleep.

Next moring I feel as if I didn't trip at all.

Conclusions:
1) This was not a 3.3gram trip, even though it should have been. Therefore, the extraction did not work perfectly. Some psilocybin must have been left in the residue, and not ended up in the extract. What a pity!

2) The alcohol really is a problem. I need to work on this. More of it needs to be evaporated away so that we don't have to consume it. Problem is that I was afraid of the crystallization, of course. But maybe I shouldn't be. As an experiment I took one bottle of 30ml and evaporated it dry. All that was left as crystal was already visible at 30ml anyway. This makes me think that the crystals were not sugars, but really psilocybin. The alcohol didn't function as a solvent, but only as a conservative.

To do: some more research, and another test soon!

I'll keep you updated.

Love, Hanz.


--------------------
Small scale alternative parties rich in empathy and extravagance. Happen to know of one in the vicinity of Amsterdam? PM me my dear fellow. I love to meet some other freaks.

Oh and, if you can,.. embrace the nyctomorph. It needs you.


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Offlinetryptkaloids
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: Hanz]
    #22127196 - 08/22/15 02:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I think redosing is why it wasn't a 3.3 gram trip bro... taking more won't get you higher. you just need to put more fungi in so you need less alcohol to get more goodies


--------------------
"Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage
Flowchart for Recommended plan of action.
Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms
Use the Damn search engine
After you know what you're doing, take a break 
Pick a book, Make some chips!
Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
 


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OfflineHanz
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: tryptkaloids]
    #22127697 - 08/22/15 04:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

You're right. Taking two half doses with 90 minutes in between was never going to get me to the same level as taking it all at once. But hey, this was a first, so I had to start low.

Now I know it's not very potent, I'll at least triple the concentration and take a little more next time. And in one go.

Also, next time will be a closed eyed trip again. Those inner trips usually take me higher anyway. It's as if you give the shrooms more opportunity to take you away...


--------------------
Small scale alternative parties rich in empathy and extravagance. Happen to know of one in the vicinity of Amsterdam? PM me my dear fellow. I love to meet some other freaks.

Oh and, if you can,.. embrace the nyctomorph. It needs you.


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InvisibleStygianKnight
A Mushroom

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 2,717
Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: Hanz]
    #22127824 - 08/22/15 04:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

It's important to note that extracts are known to be unstable so some loss of magic is expected unless you add some anti-oxidants to the mix.
You might consider trying this as a slightly acidic water extract instead.
It will need to be kept frozen till use but if you are experimenting at home that's no problem and no alcohol to deal with.


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OfflineHanz
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: StygianKnight]
    #22128027 - 08/22/15 05:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

You're saying oxidation could have been responsible for the loss of potency. Not just a poor method of extraction, like too few washes?

It was in the bottles (at room temp) for only a couple of days. Enough for oxidation?

I can add some citric acid when I evaporate to a higher concentration. After that I'll add water to see if the crystals disappear again.


--------------------
Small scale alternative parties rich in empathy and extravagance. Happen to know of one in the vicinity of Amsterdam? PM me my dear fellow. I love to meet some other freaks.

Oh and, if you can,.. embrace the nyctomorph. It needs you.


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Offlinehealing
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: Hanz] * 1
    #22128966 - 08/22/15 10:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

This kind of testing is barely a form experimentation to begin with. If you're going to compare the relative intensity of your trips, you need to minimize as many confounds as possible, so you need to have a consistent method of dosage. Now you have to choose either to continue with the dosage plan you followed in this last test and have it as your only datapoint, or throw out this test and start all over. But you got to trip out, though, so it's not really a loss at all :thumbup:


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InvisibleStygianKnight
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: healing] * 1
    #22129271 - 08/23/15 12:18 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Oxidation is a potential route of potency loss and is more common in solution.
Light exposure is another big one.
And of course, it's all subjective.


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Offlinehealing
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: StygianKnight]
    #22129288 - 08/23/15 12:27 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

It might be better to take what one should reason is as close to precisely a threshold dose as possible, then measure the effects in absence or presence.


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Open mind, open heart, open book.



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OfflineBugler Boy
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: healing]
    #22129667 - 08/23/15 05:49 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The xtals in the crystals of the gods aren't active. It's the liquid itself, the 'crystals' are the inactives that crash out first. Getting psilo to crystallize is very hard, it's fragile and a home extractor would most likely have their pH too skewed and destroy it. You can't really expect to just throw some mush and ethanol in a jar and get pure psilo xtals... Unless you can get synthetic psilo your going to be hard pressed to duplicate the results the mushroom already produced growing itself in a homemade tincture.


--------------------
The mushroom speaks: '"I am old, older than thought in your species, which is itself fifty times older than your history. Though I have been on earth for ages I am from the stars. My home is no one planet, for many worlds scattered through the shining disc of the galaxy have conditions which allow my spores an opportunity for life... How the hypercommunication mode operates is a secret which will not be lightly given to man. But the means should be obvious: it is the occurrence of psilocybin and psilocin in the biosynthetic pathways of my living body that opens for me and my symbiots the vision screens to many worlds"


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InvisibleStygianKnight
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: Bugler Boy]
    #22130579 - 08/23/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

One of the issues is that we are actually dealing with a small amount of chemical per dose.
Generally a dose is around 10-30mg, this alone should rule out rather large crystals as the final product.
Even an extract of the gods can't produce more psilocybin than went in to your extract.

Frankly this is all fine, you don't want crystals.
Crystals seem to be more unstable than extracts.


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Offlinehealing
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: StygianKnight]
    #22132514 - 08/23/15 07:27 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don't really see the point in trying, personally. I'd rather just eat them or make some tea, but to each their own, I guess.


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Offlinethoraxx
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: healing]
    #22133736 - 08/24/15 02:18 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Try using only regular 40% alk, its enough to preserve it but shouldnt get you as drunk and the water is atleast as good a solvent as the etoh


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OfflineHanz
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: healing]
    #22133996 - 08/24/15 05:38 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

First of all, thanks everyone for your replies. Let's see..

Quote:

healing said:
This kind of testing is barely a form experimentation to begin with. If you're going to compare the relative intensity of your trips, you need to minimize as many confounds as possible, so you need to have a consistent method of dosage. Now you have to choose either to continue with the dosage plan you followed in this last test and have it as your only datapoint, or throw out this test and start all over. But you got to trip out, though, so it's not really a loss at all :thumbup:




You're right, this is not a very systematic way of testing. But I feel it does give me some indication how strong the extract is. I've done this redosing two half doses with other mushrooms and truffles, followed by doing the same substance in a single dose in some later trip. Using this experience, I feel that I can extrapolate from what I have learned in this first experiment. But is it Shulgin-style scientific? No.

Quote:

Bugler Boy said:
The xtals in the crystals of the gods aren't active. It's the liquid itself, the 'crystals' are the inactives that crash out first. Getting psilo to crystallize is very hard, it's fragile and a home extractor would most likely have their pH too skewed and destroy it. You can't really expect to just throw some mush and ethanol in a jar and get pure psilo xtals... Unless you can get synthetic psilo your going to be hard pressed to duplicate the results the mushroom already produced growing itself in a homemade tincture.




I understand that at least part of the crystals are not the active compounds. But when I evaporated some of the tincture completely dry, hardly any more material emerged than what was already crystallized half way the evaporation. As I understand it, this can mean at least two opposite things: either the method extracted mostly pure psilocybine, and not much else. Or the method extracted inactive crystal as well, but was simply not very effective overall. (other conclusions are also possible)

Sadly the test (as I performed it) did not really distinguish between these two possibilities. The trip was approximately half as strong as I expected. Maybe it was relatively pure psilocybin, but was, for example, somehow degraded by oxidation. Or maybe it was not degraded, but simply not completely extracted, and some of the actives were left in the unused residue.

Quote:

healing said:
I don't really see the point in trying, personally. I'd rather just eat them or make some tea, but to each their own, I guess.




Nothing wrong with eating them, or making tea. But I was a little fed up with the taste, and hoped that maybe this way I could also find a way to accurately dose my trips by using the average strength of a whole batch of shrooms. No more surprises, like smaller shrooms being stronger than larger ones, or differences between flushes..

Guys, I am just an amateur doing this for the first time. I've spent some hours reading extraction methods, but that certainly does not make me an expert. It is just a fun way to spent some time, and see if maybe I can find a handy way of storing and accurately dosing my shrooms... :smile:

Thanks again, to be continued. Until then,
Love, Hanz.


--------------------
Small scale alternative parties rich in empathy and extravagance. Happen to know of one in the vicinity of Amsterdam? PM me my dear fellow. I love to meet some other freaks.

Oh and, if you can,.. embrace the nyctomorph. It needs you.


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Offlinethoraxx
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Re: Liquid Psilocybin: crystals unwanted. How? [Re: Hanz]
    #22134304 - 08/24/15 07:24 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hoped that maybe this way I could also find a way to accurately dose my trips by using the average strength of a whole batch of shrooms. No more surprises, like smaller shrooms being stronger than larger ones, or differences between flushes..




I have been working on that same problem, so far the most convenient solution for me was powdering the dried shrooms and stuffing into capsules
Its great for accurate dosing just by counting the pills, preserves good enough and foolproof to make with cheap equipment

Still looking for some way to preserve the fresh state with both actives present and remove the nauseating insolubles i have been workign on a tincture aswell, but havent found a good recipe yet


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