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OrgoneConclusion
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Love and Dopamine
#22096434 - 08/15/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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My recent episode not only has me doing tons of soul-searching, but also lots of research.
Here is an interesting article: http://www.wisegeek.com/contest/is-love-really-just-all-about-dopamine.htm
In biological terms, it is. However, love - per se - is not just all about dopamine.
Helen Fisher, an anthropologist at Rutgers University, has studied the science of love through fMRIs (functional magnetic resonance images). Indeed, she has discovered that love, specifically romance, is as real as the sex drive. In her words, “I had long thought that romantic love was an emotion. Now I think it’s a drive – as important as the maternal instinct or the sex drive. It comes from the parts of the brain associated with motivation. Romantic love is probably stronger than the sex drive. It’s harder to control. You can turn off the sexual urge, it’s very hard to turn off romantic love. In the grip of romantic love, you can commit suicide or homicide, or stalk somebody, or fall into an intense clinical depression.”
How real is it? Measurably real.
Science has blamed dopamine (a naturally-produced chemical that serves as a neurotransmitter in the brain, and a neurohormone released by the hypothalamus) for the ‘nuisance’ of love within human reality. It is believed to be responsible for all the dramas we go through within the clasp of romantic love. Fisher says, “When our subjects look at a photograph of their sweetheart, one of the main parts of the brain that lights up is the ventral tegmental area, a tiny little region that makes dopamine and sprays it around the brain. Dopamine is a natural stimulant. It gives you ecstasy. It gives you focused attention. It gives you motivation and goal-oriented behavior. It’s associated with arousal and, at very high levels, anxiety and fear. My hypothesis, which the fMRIs support, is that dopamine is the driving force behind the energy and arousal and attention that are all a part of love. Dopamine is also associated with all the addictions. When you take cocaine, dopamine soars. Alcohol, Nicotine, Morphine – they all elevate levels of dopamine.”
This discovery has incited both positive and negative responses. Unfortunately, the heavier side lies upon the negative response. How come? The way many people see it, “Love” seemed to have been reduced from the infinite heavens into the murky soil of the mundane Earth - due to this sudden dopamine-awareness.
People’s hopes for the bliss and eternal happiness that ‘only heaven knows of’ have now become some April Fool’s Day prank. Love has turned itself into a disgraceful characteristic; an animalistic, primitive trait that ought to be punished with humiliation. Like other instinctually-based traits, love, due to dopamine's presence, has become as barbaric and primeval as impulse – we have come to perceive it as something only animals give in to.
Moreover, the courage, creativity, and depth that stems out of love has suddenly become impersonal. We, humans, feel disconnected with the passion that yearns to erupt out of 'love', for suddenly, it seems like it doesn’t belong to us. It seems like we don’t belong to ourselves.
However, do realize that it is dangerous to base the truth from a single source, let alone a purely-objective field of study.
After all, ‘love’ is anything but objective. Henceforth, ‘love’ shall now be comprehended in an artistic manner.
Visualize placing ‘the truth/the real reality/the Universe’ upon the canvass of ‘Adobe Photoshop CS2’. What occurs at the beginning?
We have the canvass... Then, we lay out the foundations. These foundations shall funnel the depths of our intended piece. It is where the beauty of our work ultimately falls. It is where, when everything else is stripped off from the painting, this layer prevails – impenetrable and ceaselessly existent – no matter what disturbance taps upon it.
This is a logical perception of “fate”, or “truth”. Most significantly - of true love. Just what is this foundation? Why, it is the innermost state of being that occurs to a person whenever he/she is in the presence of his/her ‘soul counterpart’. In other words, it is that bliss which a person experiences in the midst of the person he/she loves most.
We, humans, might acknowledge it ("that rare state of being") as the mere outcome of dopamine release. But, may we please look beneath the dopamine? How can dopamine, first and foremost, extrude out of the hypothalamus? What triggers it? And what triggers that trigger?
It all ends up in the foundation, the first layer that has been “photoshopped”. It is not physical. It is not even chemical. What is it? Only the purest state, of course. Physical, when reduced, becomes chemical. Chemical, then, becomes spiritual. Spiritual, finally, endures as the existential.
What is the existential? It is the blank canvass. It was meant to just be there. To exist. Why? Because, some force out there seems too stricken with desire for this canvass. Some potent source of attraction seems to mean something for it. And of course, it does! It is meant to create the canvass into one, great, beautiful work of art. Until that force arrives, though, the canvass shall remain a canvass for eternity. It cannot die because it is the only IT.
Now this existential/spiritual state of being is responsible for the depth of a feeling, the breadth of a sentiment, the fire of a touch, the creativity borne out of a certain reactivity, and most importantly, the reason one has for existing. Though we, the surface layer, cannot see the root of all these, it seems we’re fated to just experience such things as human beings. And dopamine is actually just the second surface of the entire artwork.
Dopamine is not the end all-be all of love. That statement is just another human excuse.
So chemical or spiritual; both or neither?
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Khancious
da Crow



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It just is. A movement of energy
-------------------- I am that, which is.
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Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: So chemical or spiritual; both or neither?
What do you mean by spiritual?
I don't expect you to actually answer this question, BTW. But it was worth a shot
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Jaegar
Formless One



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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Hobozen]
#22101642 - 08/17/15 06:40 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Chemical.
Interesting how love can shutdown our frontal cortex effecting reason and judgemental thinking. Probably to make coupling easier.
Edited by Jaegar (08/17/15 06:46 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Jaegar]
#22101825 - 08/17/15 08:14 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, cuz otherwise I would never ever put this inside that!
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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I tend to view love as a drug. It is temporarily wonderful, but has a nasty tendency to wear off prematurely.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Jaegar
Formless One



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Puppets in the playground of rational/irrational mind fuck.
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Midnight_Toker
Gone Fishin'


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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I tend to view love as a drug. It is temporarily wonderful, but has a nasty tendency to wear off prematurely.
Love is the most powerful and pervasive drug addiction possible by far IMO. An impossible feeling to beat when returned, but capable of making one reach the lowest of all possible lows when it is returned no longer.
I'd rather feel love than an MDMA peak, but I'd rather face benzo and opiate withdrawal while going through a stimulant comedown than face heartbreak.
I can't think of an emotion we have that is stronger in either direction than love.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Excellent points.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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OrgoneConclusion
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Here is another chapter in my story (See: My Existential Crisis). I have been going to counseling. The shrink tested my serotonin levels 6 weeks after the triggering event (falling in love) and they are still far below normal.(Imagine how low they were then...) I refused to go on pharmaceuticals so he prescribed 5-HTP, an amino acid, to bring my levels back to normal.
What apparently happened was that honest affection + suppressed emotions + huge dopamine (the 'feel-good' neurotransmitter) spike (neuronal cascade) caused me to fixate on a specific woman. Imagine your best day * 100. None of my male friends could believe it when I told them that holding hands with her was better than the best sex I ever had. This extreme bonding made me feel like "this was the one!" and that I had a deep mystical experience.
The dopamine spike led to a near-total depletion of serotonin = extreme anxiety, depression, fear and obsessive behaviors - non-stop writing about it on here and to the woman until such time as she never wants to hear from me again. Imagine the person you care for most in the world hating you because of a temporary illness. I understand her point of view, but it does nothing to decrease the pain.
The actual diagnosis is PTSD going back to the death of my adoptive step daughter some 10 years ago triggered by genuine warmth. The layman's term is "a nervous breakdown". The doc says I have no underlying pathology and that it is likely a one-time event. I should be fine (if having a broken heart is fine) when my serotonin levels are normalized.
Some here wondered why I went initially to the mystical explanation. Three reasons:
1. Ecstasy and bliss * 100. Was willing to marry her the next day, the comfort and closeness was so intense.
2. Initial telepathic communication (not imagined as it was mutual and prior to meltdown).
3. A young hottie 22 years younger picking up on OC? WTF? Maybe SHE is the insane one!

Summation: Mainlining heroin is safer than falling in love.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Sounds like you got a little manic there. Happens, no doubt. Using the above metaphor, it would seem that you rather severely OD'd on amore.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Sun King



Registered: 02/15/14
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Swami and OC are fighting to be the dominant personality.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Sun King]
#22106570 - 08/18/15 12:22 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Here is another chapter in my story (See: My Existential Crisis). I have been going to counseling. The shrink tested my serotonin levels 6 weeks after the triggering event (falling in love) and they are still far below normal.(Imagine how low they were then...) I refused to go on pharmaceuticals so he prescribed 5-HTP, an amino acid, to bring my levels back to normal.
What apparently happened was that honest affection + suppressed emotions + huge dopamine (the 'feel-good' neurotransmitter) spike (neuronal cascade) caused me to fixate on a specific woman. Imagine your best day * 100. None of my male friends could believe it when I told them that holding hands with her was better than the best sex I ever had. This extreme bonding made me feel like "this was the one!" and that I had a deep mystical experience.
The dopamine spike led to a near-total depletion of serotonin = extreme anxiety, depression, fear and obsessive behaviors - non-stop writing about it on here and to the woman until such time as she never wants to hear from me again. Imagine the person you care for most in the world hating you because of a temporary illness. I understand her point of view, but it does nothing to decrease the pain.
The actual diagnosis is PTSD going back to the death of my adoptive step daughter some 10 years ago triggered by genuine warmth. The layman's term is "a nervous breakdown". The doc says I have no underlying pathology and that it is likely a one-time event. I should be fine (if having a broken heart is fine) when my serotonin levels are normalized.
Some here wondered why I went initially to the mystical explanation. Three reasons:
1. Ecstasy and bliss * 100. Was willing to marry her the next day, the comfort and closeness was so intense.
2. Initial telepathic communication (not imagined as it was mutual and prior to meltdown).
3. A young hottie 22 years younger picking up on OC? WTF? Maybe SHE is the insane one!

Summation: Mainlining heroin is safer than falling in love.

Sounds like one of my many hypomanic swings. Except I'm falling in love with myself when it happens Good lorde.
Quote:
Imagine the person you care for most in the world hating you because of a temporary illness.
I'm used to it by now.. probably why I can come off as cold
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Hobozen]
#22107134 - 08/18/15 03:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Can't I hate you just because?
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Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
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Nope.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Hobozen]
#22107142 - 08/18/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well, I don't have a specific reason.
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Hobozen


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Better start thinkin of one!
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Hobozen]
#22107159 - 08/18/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
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I just got your question. I'm a little hazy
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Sun King



Registered: 02/15/14
Posts: 4,069
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Imagine the person you care for most in the world hating you because of a temporary illness.
I don't hate you.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Sun King]
#22107231 - 08/18/15 03:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Jaegar
Formless One



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Hard to buy the telepathic communication part. Maybe subconscious cues through body behaviour etc?
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Hobozen


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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Jaegar]
#22108091 - 08/18/15 06:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe telempathic is a better word?
Opening and maintaining an empathic or telepathic link is like picking out a radio frequency and staying in tune with it. Some frequencies are easier to predict and chart than others; familiarity would help. A constantly maintained link works like an open channel, at worst it is a distraction and a drain, at best it is an anchor and a source.
When two consciousnesses are focused on each other and each person's boundaries are vulnerable and receptive with the help of the love drug, maybe something like this happens. Or maybe not, I don't know. But it doesn't seem all that mystical of thing to ponder.
Quote:
I think of both telepathy and empathy in terms of physics; wavefronts, to be more precise. Intensity, amplitude and frequency makes each psi pattern a unique signal. In a crowd, several signals can amplify or damp out each other.
Empathy, like heat, decreases with distance. Telepathy does not, but as the range increases, so does the white noise and it becomes more difficult to pick out a single signal. Empathic shielding are basically blocks, telepathic shielding more sophisticated filters, allowing specific signals.
Telepathy is an exact science. The telepath tunes in to the other mind and interprets the patterns, by adapting the same brain chemistry with a time-lag. This is interpretation, rather than reading, because the telepath can't know what the other person is thinking, s/he can only know what s/he is thinking when the same things are going on in his/her brain. The major brain areas involved are the frontal cortex, temporal cortex and hippocampus.
An empathic signal is much more difficult to decode. There is input from the whole peripheral nervous system, the amygdala and the limbic system. Pheromonal and hormonal states add to the complexity of the signal. Empathy emulates an emotional state through modulating hormone levels and the response involves the whole body.
Opening and maintaining an empathic or telepathic link is like picking out a radio frequency and staying in tune with it. Some frequencies are easier to predict and chart than others; familiarity would help. A constantly maintained link works like an open channel, at worst it is a distraction and a drain, at best it is an anchor and a source.
Telepaths and empaths have some features in common. They both tend to act as mediators in their efforts to tidy up their surroundings. It's difficult for them to handle conflicts and to hold their ground, since they can see their opponents motives as clearly or clearer than their own. They constantly broadcast their subconscious wishes to their surroundings. They aren't conscious of doing it, or if they are, they don't realise to what extent they are doing it. In restaurants, the waiter comes up to their table at once, in traffic the other drivers let them switch lanes without a hassle, and as a rule, they can have love or at least attention.
They are aware that others are thinking and feeling, but mostly because their power reminds them. They use feedback and feedforward responses to formulate the appropriate answer. If the feed is blocked for any reason, their behaviour becomes based on their own internal rules, provided they have any.
They are extremely self-involved. To maintain some degree of normal social functioning, they need to be in full control of their power, so they are constantly monitoring themselves. If their control slips, they revert to stereotypical behaviour as a safety valve: telepaths turn cerebral and obsessive-compulsive, the empaths become emotional and unstable.
http://www.offpanel.net/sevenall/tel.htm
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Jaegar]
#22108303 - 08/18/15 07:51 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jaegar said: Hard to buy the telepathic communication part. Maybe subconscious cues through body behaviour etc?
Let me hold on to a shred of fantasy.
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Sun King



Registered: 02/15/14
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That's telepathetic.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Sun King]
#22109444 - 08/19/15 01:29 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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No one has yet offered a rational explanation why a mega-hottie would come-on to me and tell me how awesome I am. I have no wealth nor looks. Doesn't make sense. Me freaking out sort of makes sense. 

Which one of you guys was behind this prank?
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Hobozen


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you were too much for her, and she couldn't handle the size of your cranium. just look at her, all bewildered by your advanced presence.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Hobozen]
#22109550 - 08/19/15 02:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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TREMBLE BEFORE MY POWER!
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Hobozen


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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Hobozen]
#22110669 - 08/19/15 10:47 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Concerning a broken heart, a yogi once asked "Do you want to be well or do you want the object of your romantic desire?"
When in a rational mind-frame, obviously the former; when in an emotional mind-frame, obviously the latter.
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Midnight_Toker
Gone Fishin'


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My heart still feels broken well over a year and a half later, even though rationally I know it was the right thing to do.
It sounds like you did what I did, except in a shorter time frame. After reflection, I realized that I was projecting my own image of who I wanted her to be onto her, and only let myself see that image. It wasn't the true her though. There were subtle hints throughout the entirety of our relationship, but I was happy just being deeply in love with who I thought was the perfect woman for me. Maybe that's why it still hurts so much when I think about it, because I didn't just lose her; I lost my image of who she was, and I felt betrayed by the fact that she was never actually that person.
I feel like maybe you projected your perfect version of someone onto her. That's why it hurts so much, because it truly does feel like she was THE ONE, a soul mate after years of not believing in such a thing. She may not have been that person though. And you'd think that if she truly were, she would have let you explain after you made an ass of yourself.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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"In the end one loves one's desire and not what is desired." --F.W. Nietzsche
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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OrgoneConclusion
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Probably a lot of truth in what you say, but this: "I feel like maybe you projected your perfect version of someone onto her."
It was different than that as I know what that looks and feels like.
As I wrote in my journal "I saw The Perfection behind the imperfection." Not the same thing at all.
It was like I had been holding my breath forever and I could finally breathe.
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OrgoneConclusion
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The photo from a few posts back is not actually her as many of you guessed, but that one is pretty crazy.
In an attempt to break my love-Jones, I put up a profile on Match.com. That girl (Doibs) is only 30 and lives 2,700 miles away and sent me a naughty, flirty message. Her profile states that dates must live within 50 miles. She must have a Santa Claus fetish or I look like her dad or is planning a Vegas weekend soon and wants a sugar daddy or was just bored.
Who-the-fuck knows? I didn't bother to respond.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (08/19/15 11:51 AM)
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Brian Jones
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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: Hobozen]
#22112206 - 08/19/15 02:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Were scientists having a little fun when named it "dopamine"?
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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OrgoneConclusion
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Perhaps. Your brain releases the same chemicals for falling in love as it does for heroin.
This episode has certainly made me the dopiest I have ever been!
Love is a (dopa) mine-field.
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OrgoneConclusion
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I HATE that I must start dating again just to clear my emotions after a decade of celibacy and hermitage.
Why must I keep looking for a mate after I have already found The One? Seems redundant and a waste of time, yet I must get back out there or pine until I die.
I was happy being alone and pain-free before this emotional shit-storm.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I HATE that I must start dating again just to clear my emotions after a decade of celibacy and hermitage.
Why must I keep looking for a mate after I have already found The One? Seems redundant and a waste of time, yet I must get back out there or pine until I die.
I was happy being alone and pain-free before this emotional shit-storm.
Keep the faith. Things will work out as long as you believe they will.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Where you been, mang? Summer vacation?
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Where you been, mang? Summer vacation?
"Said the straight man, to the late mang ""Where have you been?"" I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between." - KC
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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... and the Sunshine Band?
Do a little dance.
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akosi
Stranger
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Dopamine is definitely associated intimately with love and affection. I think PEA is also heavily involved. I recall an experience where I took PEA with my lover, sub threshold dose, could not feel anything. Then we started touching, and kissing, and as we engaged it became clear that our actions were elevating and maintaining the release of PEA in our bodies, the euphoria only came when we touched and embraced. Very cool to feel the neurotransmitters fluctuate because of that situation.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Re: Love and Dopamine [Re: akosi]
#22127372 - 08/22/15 02:45 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
akosi said: Dopamine is definitely associated intimately with love and affection. I think PEA is also heavily involved. I recall an experience where I took PEA with my lover, sub threshold dose, could not feel anything. Then we started touching, and kissing, and as we engaged it became clear that our actions were elevating and maintaining the release of PEA in our bodies, the euphoria only came when we touched and embraced. Very cool to feel the neurotransmitters fluctuate because of that situation.
OC couldn't take it after getting PEAd on twice! Your theory doesn't hold water.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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