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InvisibleLibre
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Registered: 04/19/15
Posts: 95
Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide
    #22092779 - 08/14/15 09:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I have studied psychoactive mushrooms for almost a year, motivated by long-standing issues with depression.  I still haven't tripped beyond taking less than a gram of pan cinctulus (hardly felt a thing).  The problem is that I am terrified of taking a higher dose after experiencing horrible paranoia on marijuana in the past.  I discussed doing larger doses with close friends in hopes that one would volunteer to help me manage the paranoia during the process.  All three close friends I discussed the topic with turned the topic into us doing mushrooms together in a recreational sense.  This unfortunately is not what I'm after.  I have a genuine desire to work on my brain and find a better life.  While I have realistic expectations for psilocybin, I admittedly have lofty hopes as well.  I know it's not a cure-all, but I want to at least give it a shot after reading about successes, especially in reputable clinical trials. 

I'm wondering if it is possible to find shamans, teachers, or guides in the US who will help in this area.  I contacted individuals at different study-related trials, but it seems you can't get into any of the trials without specific conditions relating to PTSD or end-of-life.  Can anyone offer thoughts as to how one may go about finding someone with a willingness and ability to help in this area?  Thank you.


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OfflineSpeckles
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Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Libre] * 1
    #22093266 - 08/15/15 01:25 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I have a close friend who has intense paranoia if he smokes weed, but has thoroughly enjoyed mushrooms when we've eaten them together. He also has depression and is on medication that some say suppresses the effects of psilocybin.

I don't know where you could find an American shaman to assist you, but I think it's likely that you won't need one. My advice is to grow your own, and try eating 2 grams alone and move up or down from there. It's hard to comprehend what the experiance will be like until you've had it. In my experiance it's less me working on my brain and more the shrooms working on me. They make me more aware and make me think differently. I've taken doses around 2 grams when very depressed and had unpleasant experiences analyzing myself, but when it's over I feel better. After every trip, good or bad, I have an immense feeling of gratitude and this gratitude fights depression and creates appreciation for my life.

Also after having a few mushroom experiences I suggest experimenting with microdoses. While taking a dose above a gram while in a bad mood can make it worse (the set), taking a microdose like .3-.5 opens up my thought processes and allows me to find a way out of the maze of negative thinking present when I'm feeling depressed. It is worth noting that I couldn't notice the effects of small doses very much until I had a strong experiance on psilocybin. I think what's going on there is that once you know it, it's easier to recognize it. People often talk about how long it takes to kick in, but after quite a few experiances I started recognizing psilocybins presence in my body very quickly.

I know i didn't answer your question but I hope my thoughts can be of some help, enjoy your journey!


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InvisibleLibre
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Posts: 95
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Speckles]
    #22093845 - 08/15/15 07:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Speckles, Thank you for the feedback.  This is quite helpful.  I guess step one is growing my own.  Just finding the mushrooms has been hard enough.  I imagine being a part of the growing experience could make me more in tune with the whole process. 

I appreciate your thoughts on microdoses as well.  I tried microdoses a few times and received no recognizable benefit.  Perhaps going with a full dose then trying the microdoses will affect that strategy. 

Thanks again for your help.  Much appreciated.


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OfflineCrawler
Male


Registered: 10/31/14
Posts: 94
Last seen: 4 months, 21 days
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Libre]
    #22094846 - 08/15/15 01:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know about a local shaman in your area, but I have found a Guru online.

He helped me realize a lot more about myself, than I otherwise would have taken years to find.




This is one of many, start from videos that are a bit older.
Hoepfully you can resonate with him as much as I do.


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Offlinejohnny six-guns
reluctant shaman


Registered: 08/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: country roads.
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Libre]
    #22095024 - 08/15/15 02:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Libre said:
Speckles, Thank you for the feedback.  This is quite helpful.  I guess step one is growing my own.  Just finding the mushrooms has been hard enough.  I imagine being a part of the growing experience could make me more in tune with the whole process. 

I appreciate your thoughts on microdoses as well.  I tried microdoses a few times and received no recognizable benefit.  Perhaps going with a full dose then trying the microdoses will affect that strategy. 

Thanks again for your help.  Much appreciated.




Libre, I like the attitude you're approaching this with.I believe one of the best ways to approach what you're seeking is with reverence and respect to the substance and process.

I can understand where you're coming from in regards to having caution tripping when comparing to your MJ paranoia. Microdosing and gradually jumping up dosage to a therapeutic level is what I'd aim for in a solo setting . You may not need a large dose to get the therapy you're seeking, and a large dose may in fact overwhelm you to the point that it has no benefit at all.

You could try dosing yourself up to a maximum 2.5g dose (of cubensis) over the course of a few hours to feel out the effects of it fully.

As you're also looking to get a therapeutic benefit from the experience, I'd be inclined to cut out any "recreational use" friends altogether. You're not wanting to find someone to trip with you so much as to just sit with you and make sure everything goes ok.

In that situation, I'd advise you to take upwards of a week doing some mental house cleaning, eating food that makes you feel good and drawing a mental bullseye on the questions and issues you'd like to deal with.  Your sitter doesn't need to be anyone more than a trusted friend who you're comfortable with.  If they know a little bit about you and your situation and you can be open with them, then they could also facilitate your thinking process by asking you questions to focus on during your experience.

Sometimes thing like this can receive significant help in one session. Other time it times multiple. Just depends on set, setting and substance. But more importantly is the emotional and personal investment someone puts into such a thing.


--------------------
Cheap - fast - good. Pick any two and it won't be the third.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW Flag
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Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Libre]
    #22095330 - 08/15/15 03:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

OP, FWIW paranoia with weed (I had it terrible) isn't going to translate over to mushrooms - although you CAN have paranoid experiences it won't be every time.  You won't really know what the whole thing is like until you grow them and get to experience the full circle.

Mushrooms are amazing brain tools and I wish you luck on the journey.  It never stops. :Awemush:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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Offlineergoticmandala
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Registered: 06/03/15
Posts: 1,256
Last seen: 4 years, 28 days
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #22095479 - 08/15/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

the best American shaman in your area is going to be a hippy friend who talks about peace and love and knows a good bit about psychedelics.


--------------------


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InvisibleSoul-Shine

Registered: 11/02/13
Posts: 338
Loc: Within and Without
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: ergoticmandala]
    #22096265 - 08/15/15 08:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

G: Gee
U: You
R: Are
U: You

Teachers can sometimes play a necessary role in the process of remembering oneself. Just keep in the back of your head that the answers you seek are already written within and with stone.

Sounds like you would like to apprentice under a curandera... Have you tried yoga before, and if so what study?


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Soul-Shine]
    #22096307 - 08/15/15 08:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Its better to become a shaman yourself man, the experience speaks for itself.

I get paranoia and panic attack sometimes from weed, I find mushrooms arent anything like weed, its a whole different experience and you might not experience any discomfort.

Youre better off just finding someone you feel comfortable with who is experiemced with pyschedelics to be your trip sitter. Find a set and setting that is comfortable to you, maybe classical music funny cartoons etc

If you stat getting overwhelmed sometimes changing rooms is enough to completely change your mood.
The most important thing is to go with it, you cant fight the trip


--------------------

Amateur Mycologists United
AMU Q&A


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InvisibleSun King
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/15/14
Posts: 4,069
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Libre]
    #22096317 - 08/15/15 08:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I can help, I have reasonable rates.


--------------------


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OfflineEggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 2 hours
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Libre]
    #22096808 - 08/15/15 10:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Remember that you're not living a life but you are life.
Humans did not magically appear in the world we evolved which means everything is connected kinda:lol:. Nature and the cosmos has a intelligence in it. We are just that intelligence becoming aware of it's self. Or that's how I like to look at it.

You might want some DMT in your life. It did amazing things for my depression and anxiety. I thought I was fucked and I thought the world was fucked. I thought everything was fucked.

Turns out it had been my point of view that was fucked. I thought that the feelings I was having were just the way "things" felt/were but it was me!
DMT showed me in reality life is a zero sum game and I know nothing.

DMT is in a way better for people with paranoia because it happens so fast you don't have time for that shit. You go to level 5 immediately. It's also bad in that way because it doesn't last very long but I've learned a great deal from it. More than all the acid trips I had taken before I smoked it.
The "trip" part last 5-10mins then you're usually normal within 15-20 without any sort of hung over feeling.

Here are some of my personal interpretation of life and existence.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22070833
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22000899#22000899



Quote:

"There is a simple inquiry for dealing with denial and projection. When something is bothering you and it brings you into conflict with some object - the most common is another person, although you can imagine you are at war with the society, the government, the church, the corporations, the weather the list is endless - you ask yourself if it is true that one of the hooks for these projections is actually responsible for your bad feelings.

Of course your ego is going to say that it is. The ego has a vested interest in it's projections. Projections protect it and keep it in business. They bolster it's self-esteem, it's sense of rightness. It needs to think that it is innocent. Actually it is innocent insofar as it is actually self. Unfortunately, Maya(illusion) has seen to it that it does not know the truth of it's nature and it thinks it is a person because it is conditioned by society; nothing projects like a group of individuals. Societies have ready-made enemies at their fingertips. Hitler had the Jews, Stalin the petty bourgeois capitalists, the Christians Satan, whites the blacks, husbands wives and wives husbands.
We need someone to blame. I cannon be the problem. But the truth is: I am the problem. There is no problem apart from me.

This method takes the ego into account and asks "Is it really true that..."
Sometimes it is true that the world is out to get you. So you need to look at the facts closely and see if it is reasonable to assume that the problem lies elsewhere. Not all problems are caused by the world. In fact, very few problems are centered on objects. Even if an object is causing the problem, is it really a problem apart from the thought that it is a problem? If it isn't, then all problems ultimately belong to me.

In the third stage of this inquiry you go a bit deeper. You inquire into the reason you have the problem. You say "who would I be without this belief?"
This is the hard part because this is where you discover that the problem is essential to your identity. The answers always is "I would be happy"





If you want to know more about this way of thinking just ask.

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
"Man is the by-product of mere chance." - I am a worthless person
"We live in a universe alien, cold, and dead." - The world is an inhospitable place
"We have come from nothingness and will return to nothingness." - My past is a tragedy; my future is hopeless



Quote:

Beck suggested that depressed people draw illogical conclusions about situations, and these lead to a distortion of reality, which manifest in the magnification of negative experiences and the trivialization of neutral or positive ones.

The cognitive triad is the source of the extremely low self-esteem of depressed subjects. Indeed it can lead to micromanic(the opposite of grandiose) delusions, manifesting in the extreme form as psychosis.

Science is not illogical, but may suffer from overexclusiveness. It must be biased in that direction in order to build a consistent knowledge system by keep "soft" poorly validated concepts outside of its domain. Nevertheless, what lies outside of the semantic universe of "official science" today may be part of it tomorrow.







--------------------
It's all for the :lol:s


Edited by Eggtimer (08/16/15 01:05 AM)


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Offlinehealing
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Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22097258 - 08/16/15 01:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

OP, I would recommend that you seek therapy with a psychologist. They will help you to learn coping strategies to deal with your depression. As you go through this process, continue to study psilocybin mushrooms. Learn about them from a biological standpoint and, if you can, learn to cultivate them, but also continue to study their effects on the human psyche. While you are at it, study the human psyche itself both generally and in regard to depression.

When you feel ready, inform your psychologist of your studies and intention to have a psychedelic experience. Your psychologist will probably initially be strongly against this. That's okay, inform them of the facts and any applicable knowledge that you will need to provide so that they might begin to understand the healing properties of the psychedelic experience provided by the fungus, and, more importantly, inform them of the dangers and of all the possible negative side effects. Ask your psychologist questions about these negative possibilities. Hopefully they will be able to provide you with coping strategies to help you mitigate these effects. You very likely will not be able to accomplish this in a single session.

When you feel prepared, take a small dose of mushrooms. Use the knowledge and understanding that you have gained through your studies of the human mind, the mushrooms, and their interaction to guide your psychedelic experience to the best of your abilities. This, of course, means that you will have provided yourself with the right mindset, setting, and dose for your introduction to the experience. Apply the coping strategies that you have learned to help you get through any difficult patterns of thought you may encounter. Take detailed notes, and when your experience has completed write a detailed trip report.

At your next session, inform your psychologist of your experience and provide them with your trip report. Speak with them about what you think and how you feel about the experience. They will be prepared to help you understand and integrate the lessons you may have learned from the experience.

From there, it's up to you. Increase your dosage if you feel it is necessary, to whatever level you feel is necessary, and keep your therapist informed about your experiences. Hopefully this will help you and your psyche to learn and grow in a healthy way, and will provide you with the tools you need to manage or even cure your depression.

Of course, the psilocybin mushrooms are more often than not unnecessary in the process of overcoming depression, but I do believe they can be a great help.


--------------------
Open mind, open heart, open book.



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OfflineEggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 2 hours
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: healing]
    #22097291 - 08/16/15 01:49 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

healing said:
OP, I would recommend that you seek therapy with a psychologist. They will help you to learn coping strategies to deal with your depression. As you go through this process, continue to study psilocybin mushrooms. Learn about them from a biological standpoint and, if you can, learn to cultivate them, but also continue to study their effects on the human psyche. While you are at it, study the human psyche itself both generally and in regard to depression.

When you feel ready, inform your psychologist of your studies and intention to have a psychedelic experience. Your psychologist will probably initially be strongly against this. That's okay, inform them of the facts and any applicable knowledge that you will need to provide so that they might begin to understand the healing properties of the psychedelic experience provided by the fungus, and, more importantly, inform them of the dangers and of all the possible negative side effects. Ask your psychologist questions about these negative possibilities. Hopefully they will be able to provide you with coping strategies to help you mitigate these effects. You very likely will not be able to accomplish this in a single session.

When you feel prepared, take a small dose of mushrooms. Use the knowledge and understanding that you have gained through your studies of the human mind, the mushrooms, and their interaction to guide your psychedelic experience to the best of your abilities. This, of course, means that you will have provided yourself with the right mindset, setting, and dose for your introduction to the experience. Apply the coping strategies that you have learned to help you get through any difficult patterns of thought you may encounter. Take detailed notes, and when your experience has completed write a detailed trip report.

At your next session, inform your psychologist of your experience and provide them with your trip report. Speak with them about what you think and how you feel about the experience. They will be prepared to help you understand and integrate the lessons you may have learned from the experience.

From there, it's up to you. Increase your dosage if you feel it is necessary, to whatever level you feel is necessary, and keep your therapist informed about your experiences. Hopefully this will help you and your psyche to learn and grow in a healthy way, and will provide you with the tools you need to manage or even cure your depression.

Of course, the psilocybin mushrooms are more often than not unnecessary in the process of overcoming depression, but I do believe they can be a great help.




Consider this.


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InvisibleBigfeely123
Stranger

Registered: 01/30/15
Posts: 2,594
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22097465 - 08/16/15 03:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Find someone in your area who looks like this :methisgood:


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Offlinehealing
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Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22097527 - 08/16/15 04:27 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Consider this.





You're not very well informed, apparently.

"The most studied form of psychotherapy for depression is cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), thought to work by teaching clients to learn a set of cognitive and behavioral skills, which they can employ on their own. Earlier research suggested that cognitive behavioral therapy was not as effective as antidepressant medication in the treatment of depression; however, more recent research suggests that it can perform as well as antidepressants in treating patients with moderate to severe depression."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_of_depression#Psychotherapy

"Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a form of psychotherapy.[1] It was originally designed to treat depression, but is now used for a number of mental illnesses."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

It's like you're talking about how much Apple products suck because decades ago they produced computers that came with mouses that only had one button, when we now use their touchscreen devices all the time.


--------------------
Open mind, open heart, open book.



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OfflinePrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations
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Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: healing] * 1
    #22097724 - 08/16/15 06:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Talk therapy works about as well as anything else.  Mushrooms are something like conducting talk therapy all by your lonesome. :shrug:

IME they induce the ability to conceptualize an "other" who is able to access deep information without the filters applied by the ordinary conscious construct and engage in dialogue about it.  This dialogue establishes access paths that remain after the trip, and because what was hidden is now obvious, the ordinary consciousness is able to work around the restrictions that it itself established in the face of cognitive dissonance, and thus dissolve the dissonance.  Hence progress...


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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OfflineEggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 2 hours
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: healing]
    #22098188 - 08/16/15 10:13 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

healing said:
Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Consider this.





You're not very well informed, apparently.

"The most studied form of psychotherapy for depression is cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), thought to work by teaching clients to learn a set of cognitive and behavioral skills, which they can employ on their own. Earlier research suggested that cognitive behavioral therapy was not as effective as antidepressant medication in the treatment of depression; however, more recent research suggests that it can perform as well as antidepressants in treating patients with moderate to severe depression."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_of_depression#Psychotherapy

"Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a form of psychotherapy.[1] It was originally designed to treat depression, but is now used for a number of mental illnesses."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

It's like you're talking about how much Apple products suck because decades ago they produced computers that came with mouses that only had one button, when we now use their touchscreen devices all the time.




Insult me if you like. I already posted about Beck's therapy which seems to work well. I was just saying consider there might be nothing wrong with you. If you've been told there's stuff wrong with you your whole life then depression seems more likely but you may have been fine from the start.
If you feel that you need to constantly change yourself because you're not "right" then that will leave you feeling inadequate.

The main reason I wouldn't try to mix psychotherapy and psychedelics is because you don't know what kind of person you're going to get. Many of them still believe drugs to be an ultimate evil don't they? If they tell you drugs are going to harm and not to do them because they're ignorant to the benefits then it'll be all you think about during the trip.
If you could find a therapist that deals specially in this type of thing then I'd say for sure go for it.

The mental landscape seems unchangeable to most people but just like in the external world your metal landscape is made of habits. Instead of getting down on yourself every time you make a small mistake and saying "I'm a fucking idiot" you just ask well "is that really true?" and slowly you quit doing that.



Edited by Eggtimer (08/16/15 10:14 AM)


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InvisibleLibre
Foraging Forester
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Registered: 04/19/15
Posts: 95
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22099430 - 08/16/15 04:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks to all for the above.  I may just be overthinking; nonetheless, all of your comments are helpful in reaching a comfort point to embark on higher doses.  I plan to watch all of the YouTube videos over the next few days.

I have been on medication and in therapy for almost ten years with little long-term progress.  If anything, I sometimes think I have gone backwards and recently hit my worst point of suicidal ideation in years.  As I mentioned before, I understand mushrooms can't be expected to cure everything, but it's worth a try. 

I have discussed mushrooms with my current therapist.  While he didn't frown on the idea, he did believe I should proceed with hypnosis and meditation before taking further steps with mushrooms.  I am hoping to move forward with mushrooms while also engaging in meditation and hypnosis. 

Soul-Shine - I have not engaged in yoga and am not familiar with curanderas.  Sounds like another topic for investigation.  Thank you. 

Eggtimer - Your comments about identity are cornerstone to the thinking I'm trying to incorporate into my life.  It's certainly not easy though.  I still refuse to take responsibility for frustrations no matter how obvious it is that I can make them go away with a change in mindset.  DMT has come up more than once in discussions with others.  I wouldn't have a clue where to get it.


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Offlinejohnny six-guns
reluctant shaman


Registered: 08/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: country roads.
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: Libre]
    #22099501 - 08/16/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Libre, a few DMT sessions may do you a lot of good. I know people who have gotten the results you're looking for in 1 DMT session, whole others are still working on it. It's not an instant cure-all, but I can say a productive session can do more in 10 minutes than 10 years of psychotherapy can.  And as ironic as it may seem, I can see where it could benefit alot in helping you with your suicidal ideation.

As far as sourcing it, I'd recommend making it yourself. The materials needed to do what you're wanting to do can be had for less than $75, you'll end up with more product than you will probably need for therapeutic use, and you'll be actively participating in the betterment of yourself.

I don't look at DMT therapy as an instant cure-all, but I think what it gives is a strong motivational push that gets the ball rolling.  From that point on its up to you to keep pushing it.


--------------------
Cheap - fast - good. Pick any two and it won't be the third.


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InvisibleLibre
Foraging Forester
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Registered: 04/19/15
Posts: 95
Re: Seeking Teacher/Shaman/Guide [Re: johnny six-guns]
    #22099549 - 08/16/15 05:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks Johnny.  I guess the process of making DMT can be found in this website?


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