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Offlineuninc4life2010
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Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene?
    #22089699 - 08/14/15 12:14 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know if this is the right place for this question, but here goes.  What evolutionary advantage did the production of psilocybin give to species of mushroom that produce it?  Why has the gene been preserved in so many species of mushrooms throughout the world?  The answer I have heard goes a little like, "Well, the mushroom produces Psilocybin as a defense mechanism to ward off animals from consuming them."

I feel like this theory doesn't hold water, considering Psilocybin isn't poisonous, and mushrooms only grow for a few days before releasing their spores.  TBH, I have no clue what advantage Psilocybin offers the organism.  Maybe there is no advantage, and there was a mutation that got preserved along the way and just stuck along for the ride.  Any ideas?  I've been thinking about this all day.


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: uninc4life2010]
    #22089865 - 08/14/15 02:17 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

It's likely to have a purpose. There was one theory kicking around that animals eating it spread spores to distant locations because of their hallucinogenic panic/enjoyment.

No one really knows.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Feelers]
    #22089993 - 08/14/15 04:32 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

It's a compound that when exposed to UV light degrades and self-polymerizes into a pigment that could block it. Or it may be a stored precursor of the pigment used by the spores.

That's just speculation but if you look at the remaining stumps after harvesting you can see the bruising is significantly stronger on the outer edges of the stem.


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Kizzle]
    #22091563 - 08/14/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

It might also be a deterent against ingestion :lol:

The bluing might act as a warning. Look at how many toxic species of animals/reptiles/plants/fungi are brightly colored.

When we see the bluing we either stay away or cultivate and spread it. :lol:


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Offlinejcop
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22091626 - 08/14/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The mushroom wants to get high and found a way how to produce psylocybin, watch the cubes growing patterns and you will see what I mean :grin:

Edit: I mean all psilocybe, actually this theory occured to me while picking semilanceatas - they grow all wavy and spiral and stuff


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Edited by jcop (08/14/15 03:09 PM)


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: jcop]
    #22091907 - 08/14/15 04:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The bluing might act as a warning. Look at how many toxic species of animals/reptiles/plants/fungi are brightly colored.



How many? I can't think of any blue poisonous species off hand :tongue:


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OfflineYukon Cornelius
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Kizzle]
    #22091982 - 08/14/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I've heard something about how it paralyzes snails because of psilocybin's 5HT2a activity, supposedly that receptor is responsible for controlling movement in snails.


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InvisibleAlkaloids
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
    #22092263 - 08/14/15 06:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Given the strong structural similarities to our own neurotransmitters that come from conserved biochemical pathways i'd say the mushrooms speak to each of us in a singular fashion that can only be crudely described by science or spoken language. 

It's is fun to speculate as to the purpose of secondary metabolites, but absent a direct conversation with the mushrooms that is all it will ever be.  :wink:

Magic mushrooms are eaten by many species, so the deterrent effects hasn't been very useful has it?  :tongue:    Not to mention how many people or animals would be able to piece together the cause of their altered state after the fact?  lol

Look at the explosion of cultivation worldwide.  Seems like it uses psilocybin to spread itself.  :pipesmoke:


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OfflineMajickMuffin
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Alkaloids]
    #22092301 - 08/14/15 06:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

They must love humans


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: MajickMuffin]
    #22092431 - 08/14/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

How many? I can't think of any blue poisonous species off hand :tongue:




The poisonous dart frogs come to mind but normally bright reds/yellows/oranges are more common.

For example leucocoprinus birnbaumii's neon yellow color is caused by the birbaumin toxins.

Definitely isnt a deterent to most humans but i doubt cows or pigs would eat many mushrooms after being dosed up real good :lol: that would be a weird sight.


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22099423 - 08/16/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Remember that Cubensis and many other Psilocybes are dung lovers, I believe someone found the spores are more likely to germinate after passing through the digestive tract of cows.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Feelers]
    #22099539 - 08/16/15 05:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Feelers said:
Remember that Cubensis and many other Psilocybes are dung lovers, I believe someone found the spores are more likely to germinate after passing through the digestive tract of cows.



I haven't seen any actually evidence of that. Which kind of sucks because I'm curious if it's true.


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Feelers]
    #22101002 - 08/16/15 11:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Spores sometimes stick to moist grass but dont germinate, the cow eats the grass and the conditions of the cow's guts help prepare the spores for germination.

Cows are surprisingly good at avoiding food that makes them sick. They take awhile to figure out what is making them sick but when they finally do they avoid it completely.

Some species like us will ingest and spread it and others will avoid it. The california buckeye is spread and eaten by the california ground squirrel, but to every other species of mammals/insects/birds/reptiles it is horribly toxic.

Regardless of whether it is a deterrent or alluring the bluing establishes its role in relationship to other species. It tells other species "im psilocybin, act accordingly" :wink:


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22104246 - 08/17/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I think this is kind of interesting. Certain wavelength of light can be harmful towards various bacteria and fungi including Pseudomonas aeruginosa which is commonly found in mushroom microflora. Where's the relevance?

Here you can see several blue dyes were able to deactivate Bacillus spores. I know that doesn't prove anything but it makes me wonder if the degradation products of psilocin might act as a photosensitizer and have some kind of antimicrobial property against certain pathogens.


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Kizzle]
    #22104584 - 08/17/15 09:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Awesome info kizzle! That might be a good explanation for the bluing.

It would be cool to add oxidized psilocybin products to agar and see if it helps prevent contamination compared to control plates.

Nobody knows what the compound is so it is really hard to say what it is specifically for. Heres an interesting thread on what other's speculate the products are:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3121442#3121442

Psilocin is slightly antibiotic by itself before oxidizing.

Aspects of secondary metabolism in basidiomycetes: I. biological and biochemical studies on Psilocybe cubensis II. a survey of phenol-o-methyltransferase in species of Lentinus and Lentinellus

Author: Wang, Wei-Wei


Quote:

Psilocin has very slight antibiotic activity against Candida albicans whereas psilocybin has none.





Couldn't pull up the entire article but the abstract did mention it. :shrug:


Edited by Toadstool5 (08/17/15 10:55 PM)


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Offlinekeeno
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22105486 - 08/18/15 06:08 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

In my opinion, these chemicals exist because nature wants us to have these revalations, however it doesn't want us to be in this state all the time.
basic needs such as eating, defending yourself against attack, not falling off a cliff etc. are better handled when sober.

however, 'higher' states allow the participating species insights for short periods of time which facilitate communication between the Earth/ Gaia, and her babies/ us. So mushrooms are a handy 'switch' to go between sobriety and contact with the source/ Nature.

The fact that we don't understand it doesn't make it just a recreational thing, there's thousands of processes going on in my body, most of which are induced with external nutrients/ food, and they're all essential to life.
psilocybin is a few steps 'higher' than ingesting food, and perhaps not essential, but I'd say most people would be happy they've tried it. A few might not, but then I believe they did them wrong. wrong time, wrong amount, wrong headspace, wrong mates

:mindexpanding:

I think we're part of nature, and nature has a higher purpose, even if it's just to work out that the meaning to life, the universe and everything, is 42 :laugh:


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: keeno]
    #22106517 - 08/18/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

So the evolutionary advantage is... nature wants us to have revelations?
:goodluckwiththat2:


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Offlinekeeno
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Kizzle]
    #22107230 - 08/18/15 03:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'd like to think so :laugh:

if a man can discover the double helix nature of DNA whilst on acid, then I'm sure there's plenty more out there to discover

http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/francis_crick_dna_lsd.html

even if it's just "hey it's cool to try and love everyone, I don't have to be afraid"


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Offlinekmetric
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: Kizzle]
    #22124701 - 08/21/15 09:48 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
I think this is kind of interesting. Certain wavelength of light can be harmful towards various bacteria and fungi including Pseudomonas aeruginosa which is commonly found in mushroom microflora. Where's the relevance?

Here you can see several blue dyes were able to deactivate Bacillus spores. I know that doesn't prove anything but it makes me wonder if the degradation products of psilocin might act as a photosensitizer and have some kind of antimicrobial property against certain pathogens.




Very, very cool. So an animal steps on a mushroom and breaks it in half. Top cells blue, killing off bacterial spores that may land while it's vulnerable and recovering. That's certainly sounds like an evolutionary advantage.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Evolution and selection of the Psilocybin gene? [Re: kmetric]
    #22125255 - 08/22/15 12:49 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I was reading earlier about S. commune which is another mushroom species that creates similar pigments. In fact one of the metabolites it can produce is the chemical indigo although that particular compound is only produced in significant amounts by certain mutant strains. Anyway, the pigments are produced in large amounts when it comes into contact with certain competing mold or bacteria.


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