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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Cj-B]
    #22164530 - 08/30/15 12:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

the erosion theory is classed under the 'fringe' theories on dating the sphinx and
while ignoring what we actually know, they tout this crap as if it's an exact
science and even though archeology is a soft science it gives a better explanation
of things because it doesnt rely on one method to determine a date

it goes to show that some people want to believe something other than what we are
seeing, that there's some great conspiracy to conceal the truth by blackballing the
radical theories which must be true because the majority apparently want to
maintain some lie... to these conspiracy theorists it doesnt seem to matter how far
from the truth something is, it's the more believable because the status quo
disagrees with it. this is why retarded shows like ancient aliens have permeated
the mainstream and why retarded fear mongers like Alex Jones have managed to get
rich from the gullibility of others


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22164535 - 08/30/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
To claim that thousands of scientist are in on a giant conspiracy is iffy at best.  What it is is that there are very defined pathways to become a "credible" member of the science community.  The worst thing you can do is to become known or labeled as an outlier.  This is why you'll never see "serious" mainstream scientists do a study on UFO's or on whether Atlantis existed or any other "fringe" theory as they label them.  It's career destroying. 




Maybe it's also because virtually nobody capable of obtaining a PhD and therefore being capable of structured and critical thinking takes fringe science seriously. But please do tell more about how science works, it's interesting to hear your perspective on it.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22164673 - 08/30/15 12:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:


ah yes... the christian destruction conspiracy


wanna give us some details on the ancient civilizations of the pre migration periods?




No conspiracy ... quite well documented.  The Christians/Romans destroyed most of the libraries from the ancient world and/or they were lost for other reasons.  For centuries reading anything other than the bible was outlawed.  The Christians destroyed what they considered to be competing philosophy/ideology from most of the Pagan world.  That's a fact, not a conspiracy.

You might want to dive into some mythology to understand the details of ancient civilizations and how those details all connect to a common master narrative.  You can start with Joseph Campbell and go from there.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleMad_Larkin

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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Cj-B] * 1
    #22164758 - 08/30/15 01:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cj-B said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Mescalean said:
Really because I have numbers of 9000-7000 based off water erosion of limestone at the top of the sphinx. As time goes on more and more archaeologists are starting to accept the theory that the sphinx was built when egypt was more of a tropical humid environment. Leading to the theory that the Egyptians moved in and settled in that land, could they have built the pyramids, sure why not, did they build the sphinx, no.

Literally the scapegoat for the head archaeologist in egypt for the sphinx being older was that this new theory was "jewish propoganda"






hahahaha... this is the evidence?

limestone does not erode at any set rate because it has no specific density or
hardness, it's a sedimentary rock which varies in hardness, the sphinx being
predominantly buried for more than a thousand years left the head exposed which
was subjected to far more than simply erosion from water, there was also abrasion
from sands and other mechanical damage




As strange as it feels to say it, :whathesaid:. Water erosion means nothing. Even carbon dating only gives a range of possible ages, something like erosion that can be affected by any number of environmental factors...VERY questionable methodology. Especially for a historian...




ill date your carbon if youre not careful


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22164770 - 08/30/15 01:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:


ah yes... the christian destruction conspiracy


wanna give us some details on the ancient civilizations of the pre migration periods?




No conspiracy ... quite well documented.  The Christians/Romans destroyed most of the libraries from the ancient world and/or they were lost for other reasons.  For centuries reading anything other than the bible was outlawed.  The Christians destroyed what they considered to be competing philosophy/ideology from most of the Pagan world.  That's a fact, not a conspiracy.

You might want to dive into some mythology to understand the details of ancient civilizations and how those details all connect to a common master narrative.  You can start with Joseph Campbell and go from there.





now it's also the romans, let's not forget about the moors and the thousands of
others that did this very thing in the name of conquest, maybe we shouldnt
discount other acts such as accidental fires.

that still doesnt account for the claims of these pre migration civilizations


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22164923 - 08/30/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:


ah yes... the christian destruction conspiracy


wanna give us some details on the ancient civilizations of the pre migration periods?




No conspiracy ... quite well documented.  The Christians/Romans destroyed most of the libraries from the ancient world and/or they were lost for other reasons.  For centuries reading anything other than the bible was outlawed.  The Christians destroyed what they considered to be competing philosophy/ideology from most of the Pagan world.  That's a fact, not a conspiracy.

You might want to dive into some mythology to understand the details of ancient civilizations and how those details all connect to a common master narrative.  You can start with Joseph Campbell and go from there.





now it's also the romans, let's not forget about the moors and the thousands of
others that did this very thing in the name of conquest, maybe we shouldnt
discount other acts such as accidental fires.

that still doesnt account for the claims of these pre migration civilizations




The Abrahamic religions were pretty tough on the planet's recorded knowledge for an extended period of time.  Luckily, the Renaissance came.

If there was a technologically advanced civilization 12-25,000 years ago or older, it is quite possible that IN ADDITION to the migration from Asia through what is now Alaska there might have been settlements in various places of the Americas that, upon its destruction (increasing evidence of a major global flood event during the last ice age) these settlements were cut off which would account for the remarkably similar creation mythologies we find all over the world. 

Hey, I get that you think it's impossible that there could have been some advanced human civilizations prior to 7,500 BC, but it's naive to say there is no evidence and no clues. 

We haven't even brought up China that has some similar creation myths and this is a culture that had a lot going on well before the Greeks were putting it together.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineMescalean
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22165067 - 08/30/15 02:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Starting to think you and enlil work for the same contractor pris . That's crazy thinking though there's no such thing as shills right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis This is where it says the enclosing walls. Apparently it's not too knew of a theory either and they been arguing about this shit for a while. I personally see the egyptologists as the kind where if something were to change the written history they would fight tooth and nail because it was not what they were taught of what they thing. It's partially and ego thing of being wrong after claiming to be right for so long. Shit like that will make people think twice about your lifes work.


--------------------
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Offlinewhattaf
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Mescalean]
    #22165130 - 08/30/15 03:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)



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OfflineMescalean
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: whattaf]
    #22165136 - 08/30/15 03:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

whattaf said:






one of the, funniest fucking episodes that fucks have written. had me dieing


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22165149 - 08/30/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
The Abrahamic religions were pretty tough on the planet's recorded knowledge for an extended period of time.  Luckily, the Renaissance came.





every culture was, when one civilization conquered another their history was
pretty mush destroyed with their civilization, some survived to some degree
through religious beliefs and customs of the assimilated cultures

Quote:

If there was a technologically advanced civilization 12-25,000 years ago or older, it is quite possible that IN ADDITION to the migration from Asia through what is now Alaska there might have been settlements in various places of the Americas that, upon its destruction (increasing evidence of a major global flood event during the last ice age) these settlements were cut off which would account for the remarkably similar creation mythologies we find all over the world.




once more, this is merely ass talking since the concept of advanced is only
relative to the times, were they advanced by modern standards or merely advanced
by ancient standards, either way, what made these cultures so far advanced from
the others around them 

Quote:

Hey, I get that you think it's impossible that there could have been some advanced human civilizations prior to 7,500 BC, but it's naive to say there is no evidence and no clues. 

We haven't even brought up China that has some similar creation myths and this is a culture that had a lot going on well before the Greeks were putting it together.





what am I supposed to believe when you're presenting ambiguity and vagueness


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22165167 - 08/30/15 03:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

If anyone were to find good archaeological record of an ancient civilization I imagine that the areas that would've once been shoreline but are now underwater due to melting would be a good place to start -

ala:






Especially dat SE asia... so much that is underwater now


--------------------
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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Mescalean]
    #22165172 - 08/30/15 03:13 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mescalean said:
Starting to think you and enlil work for the same contractor pris . That's crazy thinking though there's no such thing as shills right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis This is where it says the enclosing walls. Apparently it's not too knew of a theory either and they been arguing about this shit for a while. I personally see the egyptologists as the kind where if something were to change the written history they would fight tooth and nail because it was not what they were taught of what they thing. It's partially and ego thing of being wrong after claiming to be right for so long. Shit like that will make people think twice about your lifes work.





ok, so the enclosing walls of the sphinx are eroded heavily, the sphinx is not

let's see what OTHER conclusions can be drawn from this

1. the walls are much older than the sphinx
2. the walls were deliberately eroded at some point
3. the walls were mechanically eroded in addition to the natural erosion
4. fookin' aliens man!

did you care to read this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis#Response_of_Egyptologists_and_archaeologists

what about this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis#Response_of_other_geologists

what about this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis#Response_of_climatologists


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: twighead]
    #22165177 - 08/30/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

twighead said:
If anyone were to find good archaeological record of an ancient civilization I imagine that the areas that would've once been shoreline but are now underwater due to melting would be a good place to start -





you're right. let's drain the oceans and start searching


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22165184 - 08/30/15 03:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

We should be living underwater at this point anyway, for no particular reason really other than to live up to the expectations of sci-fi authors past.


--------------------
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OfflineMescalean
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22165196 - 08/30/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Mescalean said:
Starting to think you and enlil work for the same contractor pris . That's crazy thinking though there's no such thing as shills right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis This is where it says the enclosing walls. Apparently it's not too knew of a theory either and they been arguing about this shit for a while. I personally see the egyptologists as the kind where if something were to change the written history they would fight tooth and nail because it was not what they were taught of what they thing. It's partially and ego thing of being wrong after claiming to be right for so long. Shit like that will make people think twice about your lifes work.





ok, so the enclosing walls of the sphinx are eroded heavily, the sphinx is not

let's see what OTHER conclusions can be drawn from this

1. the walls are much older than the sphinx
2. the walls were deliberately eroded at some point
3. the walls were mechanically eroded in addition to the natural erosion
4. fookin' aliens man!

did you care to read this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis#Response_of_Egyptologists_and_archaeologists

what about this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis#Response_of_other_geologists

what about this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis#Response_of_climatologists




Sure did. Bunch of words like "may" and "proposed an alternative theory" Your argument carries as much weight as mine sir. Did you read them?

"Haloclasty is rejected as an explanation for the vertical erosion features by Schoch et al. because it doesn’t explain all the visible evidence, namely that the water erosion features are not evenly distributed, being concentrated in those areas that would have been particularly exposed to running water, whereas the haloclasty process should have operated evenly on all exposed limestone surfaces.[10] Similarly, Schoch points out that the alternative explanations do not account for the absence of similar weathering patterns on other rock surfaces in the Giza pyramid complex which were cut from the same limestone beds."


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Mescalean]
    #22165227 - 08/30/15 03:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mescalean said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Mescalean said:
Starting to think you and enlil work for the same contractor pris . That's crazy thinking though there's no such thing as shills right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis This is where it says the enclosing walls. Apparently it's not too knew of a theory either and they been arguing about this shit for a while. I personally see the egyptologists as the kind where if something were to change the written history they would fight tooth and nail because it was not what they were taught of what they thing. It's partially and ego thing of being wrong after claiming to be right for so long. Shit like that will make people think twice about your lifes work.





ok, so the enclosing walls of the sphinx are eroded heavily, the sphinx is not

let's see what OTHER conclusions can be drawn from this

1. the walls are much older than the sphinx
2. the walls were deliberately eroded at some point
3. the walls were mechanically eroded in addition to the natural erosion
4. fookin' aliens man!

did you care to read this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis#Response_of_Egyptologists_and_archaeologists

what about this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis#Response_of_other_geologists

what about this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis#Response_of_climatologists




Sure did. Bunch of words like "may" and "proposed an alternative theory" Your argument carries as much weight as mine sir. Did you read them?




and you arent seeing that this water erosion theory is merely another alternative theory because it's trying to use one structure to date another with no supporting evidence

Quote:

"Haloclasty is rejected as an explanation for the vertical erosion features by Schoch et al. because it doesn’t explain all the visible evidence, namely that the water erosion features are not evenly distributed, being concentrated in those areas that would have been particularly exposed to running water, whereas the haloclasty process should have operated evenly on all exposed limestone surfaces.[10] Similarly, Schoch points out that the alternative explanations do not account for the absence of similar weathering patterns on other rock surfaces in the Giza pyramid complex which were cut from the same limestone beds."




holoclasty is only one type of erosion within another class of erosion

from your link on the erosion theory
Quote:

geologists and others have rejected the water erosion hypothesis and the idea of an older Sphinx, offering various alternative explanations for the cause and date of the erosion.




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OfflineCj-B
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22165386 - 08/30/15 04:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

koraks said:
Makes perfect sense in fact. Especially since the original face would have been badly eroded 5000 years ago anyway.

Still someone explain to me how the possibility of the sphinx being both 12000 and 4500 years old is evidence of science today being fraudulent or a conspiracy.




To claim that thousands of scientist are in on a giant conspiracy is iffy at best.  What it is is that there are very defined pathways to become a "credible" member of the science community.  The worst thing you can do is to become known or labeled as an outlier.  This is why you'll never see "serious" mainstream scientists do a study on UFO's or on whether Atlantis existed or any other "fringe" theory as they label them.  It's career destroying. 

Funding for science, for the most part, comes from government sources.  Institutions like the Smithsonian do a lot of work at defining what "credible" scientists can and can't study. 

IMHO, more than anything else, the ruins at Puma Punku blows the theory of human migration to the America's completely out of the water.  Yet it's virtually ignored by the scientific community.






It's career destroying because all the people that espouse it have zero hard evidence. Just a bunch of circumstantial bullshit or a bunch of purposefully misinterpreted facts. You don't seem to understand that if someone pulled some sort of Crystal Atlantean tower out of the Mediterranean or found credible artifacts/sites of a precursor civilization or a crashed UFO that that person would never have to worry about finding a job in the field ever again. Historians aren't interested in 'maybe theres were advanced prehistorical civilizations but DA CHRISTIANZ destroyed all evidence even in sites they didn't know existed'. Speculative history like that is worth less then the paper it's written on.


Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku
Quote:

Determining the age of the Pumapunku complex has been a focus of researchers since the discovery of the Tiwanaku site. As noted by Andean specialist, Binghamton University Anthropology professor W. H. Isbell,[2] a radiocarbon date was obtained by Vranich[3] from organic material from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound-fill forming the Pumapunku. This layer was deposited during the first of three construction epochs and dates the initial construction of the Pumapunku to 536–600 AD (1510 ±25 B.P. C14, calibrated date). Since the radiocarbon date came from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound-fill underlying the andesite and sandstone stonework, the stonework must have been constructed sometime after 536–600 AD. The excavation trenches of Vranich show that the clay, sand, and gravel fill of the Pumapunku complex lie directly on the sterile middle Pleistocene sediments. These excavation trenches also demonstrated the lack of any pre-Andean Middle Horizon cultural deposits within the area of the Tiwanaku Site adjacent to the Pumapunku complex.[3]




--------------------
"I have no way of knowing whether you, who eventually will read this record, like stories or not. If you do not, no doubt you have turned these pages without attention. I confess that I love them. Indeed, it often seems to me that of all the good things in the world, the only ones humanity can claim for itself are stories and music; the rest, mercy, beauty, sleep, clean water and hot food (as the Ascian would have said) are all the work of the Increate. Thus, stories are small things indeed in the scheme of the universe, but it is hard not to love best what is our own—hard for me, at least."


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22165391 - 08/30/15 04:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

what am I supposed to believe when you're presenting ambiguity and vagueness




I can't tell you what you're supposed to believe.  If you CHOOSE to believe a modern science narrative of big bang > life springs from lifeless matter > millions of years of ultra slow evolution > Incredible technological leap by humans <10,000 years ago > Sumeria/Egypt/Rome linear story of our history

Have at it.  Love it.  Embrace it. Defend it.  Worship it. 

For me, this story has far too many loose ends and the case for a civilization like Atlantis >14,000 years ago is strong and it ties together a lot of those loose ends.  Most importantly, it provides a plausible explanation for the source of virtually all the creation myths around the globe.  There's no way to prove this to a person like you and that's fine.  You're taking the safe road.  History proves, however, that more truth is found on the road less traveled ... and, institutionally pushed and accepted knowledge about man and our history has nearly always been wrong.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineCj-B
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22165406 - 08/30/15 04:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

what am I supposed to believe when you're presenting ambiguity and vagueness




I can't tell you what you're supposed to believe.  If you CHOOSE to believe a modern science narrative of big bang > life springs from lifeless matter > millions of years of ultra slow evolution > Incredible technological leap by humans <10,000 years ago > Sumeria/Egypt/Rome linear story of our history

Have at it.  Love it.  Embrace it. Defend it.  Worship it. 

For me, this story has far too many loose ends and the case for a civilization like Atlantis >14,000 years ago is strong and it ties together a lot of those loose ends.  Most importantly, it provides a plausible explanation for the source of virtually all the creation myths around the globe.  There's no way to prove this to a person like you and that's fine.  You're taking the safe road.  History proves, however, that more truth is found on the road less traveled ... and, institutionally pushed and accepted knowledge about man and our history has nearly always been wrong.






:lol: No it hasn't you fucking moron. Theres no archaeological evidence of Atlantis, theres no documentation from any other culture about them, just myths and legends. Fuck, we can probably blame Plato for even making people think it existed by using it as an allegorical 'perfect state'. You've provided little to no even vaguely convincing evidence of ANYTHING you've claimed so far while making a lot of assumptions that you can't possibly hope to back up (all creation myths springing from the same source....:lolsy:)


--------------------
"I have no way of knowing whether you, who eventually will read this record, like stories or not. If you do not, no doubt you have turned these pages without attention. I confess that I love them. Indeed, it often seems to me that of all the good things in the world, the only ones humanity can claim for itself are stories and music; the rest, mercy, beauty, sleep, clean water and hot food (as the Ascian would have said) are all the work of the Increate. Thus, stories are small things indeed in the scheme of the universe, but it is hard not to love best what is our own—hard for me, at least."


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: so what do think the pyramids of giza were made for? [Re: Cj-B]
    #22165424 - 08/30/15 04:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cj-B said:

It's career destroying because all the people that espouse it have zero hard evidence. Just a bunch of circumstantial bullshit or a bunch of purposefully misinterpreted facts. You don't seem to understand that if someone pulled some sort of Crystal Atlantean tower out of the Mediterranean or found credible artifacts/sites of a precursor civilization or a crashed UFO that that person would never have to worry about finding a job in the field ever again. Historians aren't interested in 'maybe theres were advanced prehistorical civilizations but DA CHRISTIANZ destroyed all evidence even in sites they didn't know existed'. Speculative history like that is worth less then the paper it's written on.






Given the number of astronauts, military pilots, military leaders and Top Secret UFO files made public from most nations except the US over the last 20 years, there is a fair amount of evidence that the official US story on UFO's is utter and complete bullshit.  The Secretary of Defense from Canada is on the record for saying there's a massive UFO coverup.  Clinton and Reagan were both UFO fanatics.  John Pedestal is the nation's #1 visible leader advocating full disclosure.  The evidence that the truth about UFO's on this planet is a carefully guarded secret is overwhelming.

So, again, your argument falls apart.  It is impossible for a scientist to study this topic scientifically because all the government data and information on it is Top Secret and not available for research.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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