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Anonymous

some thinking....
    #2208614 - 12/29/03 10:58 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

less than a year ago, there were millions of people worldwide taking the time out of their schedules to march in protest of the impending US military campaign in iraq. untold amounts of human energy were spent in this effort. i believe that if questioned today, most of these demonstrators would stand by their feelings about the war before it began.

fast forward to this week in iran. in a recent earthquake, thousands have been killed (2-3 times as many civilians died in the US campaign against hussein), thousands injured, and thousands homeless. how many people worldwide are sending donations, care packages, etc? of the westerners who went to iraq to act as "human sheilds", how many are now in iran helping clean up after this much greater catastrophe? how does the outpouring of human effort to help these people compare to the effort expended protesting the US invasion of iraq?

is it possible... that just maybe, alot of that protesting had more to do with a simple disdain for america than real concern for human life??? where is the support for the iranians?

just a thought...


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Invisiblemantis
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2208806 - 12/30/03 12:49 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well, there are volunteers and aid coming from all sorts of countries around the world (including the United States) and the United Nations is coordinating a good chunk of the humanitarian effort:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/27/iran.quake/

I'm sure there are pro-war and anti-war people donating, it's not like donating is a highly publicized event.

How does somebody being opposed to preemptive war equate to disdain for the country itself? I don't support the occupation because I don't belive our govenrment has pure intentions. We've been friends with Saddam in the past, yet it becomes a simple matter of good vs. evil when he's misbehaving. I think it's great that Saddam is out of power and everything. On the other hand, I don't think it is our job to take over countries until we prove they are a true, imminent threat. So why the hell are we over there? I though the purpose of the US military was to defend the country from an imminent foreign threat.

It's also interesting how the primary focus of it shifted as the war progressed. I'm sure they had these all in mind before hand, but the general mood from the United States government (aka the media lol) went from:

weapons of mass destruction to

removal of Saddam Hussein from power to

liberation of the Iraqi people...

You know-- those Iraqis that everyone in America has been so concerned about since Saddam took power :rolleyes: The majority of the people I'd talked to in the past hated Iraqis because of the Gulf War. In a way, I suppose the war had a positive effect on their view of Iraq; Blind compassion sure beats blind hatred! :grin:

I'm not saying there aren't positive effects from the war, but I have a hard time trusting politicians and (I certainly hope) most people do as well. Questioning the government promotes the very idea of democracy. Although, we don't live in a democracy... We just pretend like we do =) America is a Constitution-based federal republic with "strong democratic tradition"


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2208840 - 12/30/03 01:09 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think it all boils down to the fact that protesters were doing so in the hopes of preventing a war...Nobody to my knowledge has gotten very far protesting natural disasters.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: Rono]
    #2208850 - 12/30/03 01:15 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
I think it all boils down to the fact that protesters were doing so in the hopes of preventing a war...Nobody to my knowledge has gotten very far protesting natural disasters.




hehe nice


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Invisiblemantis
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: Rono]
    #2208851 - 12/30/03 01:15 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

NO EARTHQUAKES FOR OIL  :thumbup:


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InvisibleHanky
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2208899 - 12/30/03 01:50 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

oh look...it's the old "you protested against this,but why didn't you do anything about that"
some people are soooooooooo stupid.

what RONO said summed it up beautifuly.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2209459 - 12/30/03 08:16 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

is it possible... that just maybe, alot of that protesting had more to do with a simple disdain for america than real concern for human life



It's not only possible, it's probable.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: some thinking.... [Re: Rono]
    #2210618 - 12/30/03 10:31 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think it all boils down to the fact that protesters were doing so in the hopes of preventing a war...Nobody to my knowledge has gotten very far protesting natural disasters.

that's kindof my point. when *helping people* means you get to march in the street protesting america, millions clammor at the chance... even when at that point it is still uncertain whether their efforts will even do any good.... and possible that they may do harm.

when *helping people* means providing actual aid to thousands of actual survivors of an actual devastating earthquake, the turnout is, to say the least, considerably less.

let's say you were an all-powerful being of some sort and you could change past events. which one would you reverse... the earthquake or the war (assuming for the sake of argument that you could only pick one of them)?


Edited by Anonymous (12/30/03 11:34 PM)


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2210742 - 12/31/03 12:00 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I got 500 bucks that says we've killed fewer Iraqis than Saddam did

Where the fuck were all the protesters yelling "NO BLOOD FOR OIL" when it was Saddam killing for oil, and not us? Oh that's right. Jerkin off to the Sears catalog completely unaware that anyone other than the US could ever cause anything bad to happen. Ever.

And on that same damned point that I'll hump like a piano with one key, why weren't they protesting France? France wanted to perpetuate Saddam's horrible bloody control why? Because they were making money off of it. OH MY GOD isn't America the only nation who hides monetary concerns behind humanitarian concerns?


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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Anonymous

Re: some thinking.... [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2210834 - 12/31/03 12:49 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I got 500 bucks that says we've killed fewer Iraqis than Saddam did

absolutely. i'd even bet that we killed less in the 10 months we've spent eliminating his regime than he killed during an average 10 months while in power.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2211173 - 12/31/03 05:01 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'd take you up on that bet.

Wonder how Bush and the neocon crazies are feeling now after branding Iran "evil".


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2211320 - 12/31/03 09:08 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

that's kindof my point. when *helping people* means you get to march in the street protesting america, millions clammor at the chance... even when at that point it is still uncertain whether their efforts will even do any good.... and possible that they may do harm.

The war/invasion was a deliberate and planned operation to which there was widespread opposition. Obviously quite a few people were going to want to protest over something we could all see coming, and that was in many eyes preventable (war, death, destruction etc...).

when *helping people* means providing actual aid to thousands of actual survivors of an actual devastating earthquake, the turnout is, to say the least, considerably less.


Do you have any figures at all to support this? Check the BBC for some recent info:

Teams from 40 countries are helping thousands of residents in the city of Bam who are spending a sixth day outside in harsh conditions.
...
Tons of humanitarian aid have been pouring into Iran, and there have been pledges of $500m in aid from the international community.

Planeloads of tents, blankets, tarpaulins, building materials, medicine, water and food are being stockpiled at Bam's small airport, said UN co-ordinator Ted Pearn.

Most international rescuers in Bam have now abandoned their search for survivors and the focus of the humanitarian effort is being switched towards providing longer-term relief.


As already mentioned by others, I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2211614 - 12/31/03 01:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This post assumes that protestors are doing so because they are trying to "help people". This assumption is flawed. Yes they are trying to help people, but it is themselves they are trying to help.

There are no truly altruistic acts...People who protest are doing it for various reasons. Some want to feel a part of something larger than themselves. Many want to identify with a counter-culter and therefore find some purpose. Others are interested in saving themselves from the horror of going to war. Still others are looking for ways to make a buck from it. None of these reasons make it any more or less noble. This is the reality...to believe otherwise is to believe in fairy-tales...

Now, certainly there are plenty of people helping iran with its current problem in many ways. None of those are altruistic either, but the things that motivate people to help others in annonymous ways are different that the things that motivate people to do things that will get them on the news. It is not my place to say whether it makes one group of people better than another...

To wonder why the people protesting arent helping iran is making many assumptions. First, it is applying a set of values to a group of people without having any information or evidence that those values are even prevalent in the group. Second, it is assuming that this set of values would force a person to send aid to iran. Third, it is assuming that you would be notified if this aid was, in fact, sent.

I don't know who is sending what to Iran. I just know what I have done.


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Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish

Ellis Dee said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"

akira_akuma said, "fuck the freedom to speech, it's all crap"


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: Edame]
    #2211634 - 12/31/03 01:22 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
when *helping people* means providing actual aid to thousands of actual survivors of an actual devastating earthquake, the turnout is, to say the least, considerably less.


Do you have any figures at all to support this? Check the BBC for some recent info:

Teams from 40 countries are helping thousands of residents in the city of Bam who are spending a sixth day outside in harsh conditions.
...
Tons of humanitarian aid have been pouring into Iran, and there have been pledges of $500m in aid from the international community.

Planeloads of tents, blankets, tarpaulins, building materials, medicine, water and food are being stockpiled at Bam's small airport, said UN co-ordinator Ted Pearn.

Most international rescuers in Bam have now abandoned their search for survivors and the focus of the humanitarian effort is being switched towards providing longer-term relief.


As already mentioned by others, I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges.



Gotta love it when people's assumptions are turned flat on their face.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: some thinking.... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2211658 - 12/31/03 01:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Gotta love it when people's assumptions are turned flat on their face.

i am aware of efforts to aid iran, and i still believe that more human effort was expended protesting the US action in iraq than aiding earthquake survivors in iran. i forget... how many million people protested worldwide again?


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Anonymous

Re: some thinking.... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2211672 - 12/31/03 01:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'd take you up on that bet.

the estimates i've seen of civilian casualties inflicted by US forces are around 9000.

the ones of civilians killed by hussein's regime range from 300,000 to 1,000,000.

we've been there for ten months.

hussein was in power for about 22 years.

do the math.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2211674 - 12/31/03 01:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

like has already been said...apples and oranges. Just because an individual feels that protesting a preventable war is the right thing to do..it doesn't mean that said individual is obliged to help every time something bad happens. Sometimes you gotta pick your battles...no real mystery there.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2211676 - 12/31/03 01:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You're forgetting the vast bulk of his killing was done in the 80's and putting down the rebellions post 1991. Both done with the approval of the US.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: ]
    #2211683 - 12/31/03 01:58 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You have a point...we have only killed an average of 900 a month...that is much better than the 1200 a month average when saddam was in power....I have changed my mind...

We are just and right to be in Iraq...900/month is a fair amount of civilian murders...

now...if we start getting over 1k/month, then I might have to change my mind...


--------------------
Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish

Ellis Dee said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"

akira_akuma said, "fuck the freedom to speech, it's all crap"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: some thinking.... [Re: Enlil]
    #2211692 - 12/31/03 02:03 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Actually the last casualty figure I saw for Iraq was 40,000 dead. 4000 a month.


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