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Invisibleamp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #22843674 - 01/30/16 06:17 PM (8 years, 20 hours ago)

I agree with everything above. The thing is, health care and education wouldn't be so expensive if our currency was managed correctly and the health care market was more competitive and free.

All the corporate welfare you speak of is terrible and in my opinion fraudulent. Corporations and gov't officials are corroborating to achieve a "legal" form of tax evasion. Once again, the answer isn't socialism, it is a return to constitutional conservatism. When the government regulates interstate commerce in the interest of the consumer and isn't in bed with corporations, the people win. You are 100% correct in that the U.S. has become a quasi-socialistic form of government, and I don't think its doing us any good. More socialism to fix the problems socialism created isn't going to work. 

As far as education, I want the gov't as far out of that as possible. They are already managing the perception of the masses via the mainstream media. Once you let them start indoctrinating us at the tender ages of 5 and 6, you end up having a population in support of socialism. Our educational system has gotten much worse since the gov't came in and tried to address the problems (over 50% of our country's graduating PhD's are foreign born). Our country is being intentionally dumbed down to foster a naïve and complacent populous who can be manipulated easily with propaganda or distracted by the next Kardashian switching her ass across the screen.

It would be so great if everyone in the country understood and gave a fuck about monetary policy. These bankers and politicians would be axed so fucking quickly for what they do to the common man behind the scenes.

The Icelandic Revolution of 2008-2009 was a great example of what could be done. Those guys did the exact opposite of us during the financial crisis. We bailed our banks out, and didn't jail anybody. The people responsible for the collapse are still working in the financial industry! The Icelandic people, however, realized that their debt was not incurred by them, it was incurred by fraudulent bankers and gov't officials acting against their will. They showed up with pots and pans to their gov't buildings and forced the gov't to resign. They put out arrest warrants for bankers and jailed those who had not yet fled the country. They also turned around to countries in the EU and told them to go fuck themselves. They set up a committee to draft an entirely new constitution and every meeting was streamed live online for the entire country to take part in and give feedback.

Unfortunately our country is far too polarized to ever come together to achieve something like this. Its not that we are all so different, its that the media is telling us to be afraid of one another. Blacks don't trust whites and vice versa. Citizens and cops, Muslims and Christians, men and women, Northerners vs anyone who wants to fly a rebel flag. Everytime you turn the news on, you will see something highlighting and strengthening these divides. Its funny that 99% of people in this country had no idea Iceland threw out their gov't and rewrote their constitution. Funny, a European country has a revolution and our media doesn't think its important enough to inform the American public. Hmmmm? I wonder why?


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (01/31/16 12:34 AM)


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Invisibleamp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244] * 1
    #22844929 - 01/31/16 12:43 AM (8 years, 13 hours ago)



Just look at this shit. Although the cops in the U.S. would have been moving at the crowd and fucking people up...


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244] * 1
    #22845244 - 01/31/16 03:07 AM (8 years, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
Sanders' policies, and the policies of the Democratic party in general, are heavily rooted in Socialist/Communist principles.

His agenda includes a government-run health-care program that covers every American, expanding Social Security and making tuition free at public colleges.

Quote:

Ok so the government owns and runs the health-care program and you get to use it if and when need be. Communism.




Ok, so all of Europe and Australia is Communist... :lolsy::asianofapproval:

Quote:

It will be funded by taxpayer money (ie: the portion of the citizenry who pay more than they take from the government). Socialism. There is no incentive to ever get off welfare if your quality of life doesn't change at all once you break that threshold.




There is more to life than money. Tesla was probably the greatest contributor to modern technological advancement since Newton, and he died penniless. He could have been filthy fucking rich. Money was not his motivator.

Quote:

And what about this expanded social security? Are we talking about a one time juicing so that it is properly funded? Or are we simply talking about expanding the Ponzi scheme that is SS? You see, the problem with socialism is, eventually you run out of other people's money. Once we're all on welfare and every multi-national corporation has left the U.S., who will fund our "entitlements"?




Except that's not a problem in Democratic Socialist countries, like Sweden and Denmark.

Quote:

Free tuition at public colleges? Certainly sounds like a laudable proposal, however socialistic it may be. Colleges are super expensive now, but capitalism and the free markets didn't cause this. My grandfather paid for my father's education at the University of Maryland with pocket change. My other grandfather pre-paid for my education when I was a toddler in '90 for $15,000. That was good for a 4 year degree from James Madison University. If you want to pre-pay for a 4 year college degree in Virginia for a child born today. You would be paying $85,000 in one lump sum. There is something else that is causing this problem and it can be fixed without socialism. Something tells me it might have something to do with monetary policy at the Fed but lets not open that can of worms again...




No, let's open that can of worms, if it somehow supports your point. The reason tuition has gone up so much is obvious: Government backed student loans, and greed on behalf of both banks, and colleges.

Colleges know that students have access to enormous sums of money, regardless of their credit, and they know that education is necessary to attain any semblance of the "American dream". It's an easy sell. Banks expect to get their money and interest, because you can't file bankruptcy, and if you have any success in life, you will be forced to pay that loan back.

Bernie is advocating free public 4 year colleges. It's not a novel idea, and it works just fine everywhere it's been tried, that I know of.

Quote:

Sometimes it seems as if Democrats are willing to destroy the entire economy, so long as it lessens the income disparity. You need to look passed the 'What a beautiful world it would be if college was free and everyone had healthcare' and examine the long term and secondary consequences of these proposals.




Sometimes it seems as if Republicans are wiling to destroy the economy, as long as it enriches billionaires... The recession comes to mind.

I will say this again, because a lot of people don't seem to understand that: TRICKLE DOWN DOESN'T FUCKING WORK!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleAstral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22845815 - 01/31/16 09:24 AM (8 years, 5 hours ago)

REPORTER: DOJ, FBI “SUPER PISSED OFF” at Obama White House Over Clinton Investigation

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/reporter-doj-fbi-super-pissed-off-at-obama-white-house-over-clinton-investigation-video/

Quote:


On Friday White Press Secretary Josh Earnest told reporters some officials at the FBI have said Hillary Clinton is not a target of the current investigation.
Hillary Clinton Classified Mediaite

These latest comments by the Obama White House reportedly have FBI and Justice Department officials “Super Pissed Off.”

Catherine Herridge reported:

    That statement by Josh Earnest has got the back up of our contacts at the FBI and Justice Department for two reasons… They are SUPER PISSED OFF to use a technical term. Number one, Josh Earnest has absolutely no clearance or visibility in the FBI investigation. Number two, they say it really seems part of a troubling pattern from the White House because the president earlier said he did not see any national security implications to the Clinton emails and then we found out he had never been briefed.








http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/30/us/politics/22-clinton-emails-deemed-too-classified-to-be-made-public.html

Quote:

The department announced that 18 emails exchanged between Mrs. Clinton and President Obama would also be withheld, citing the longstanding practice of preserving presidential communications for future release. The department’s spokesman, John Kirby, said that exchanges did not involve classified information.




Older story

President Obama discovered Hillary Clinton's personal email use through news reports


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/obama-learned-hillary-clinton-email-news-article-1.2141378

He never knew until the media reported it?



--------------------
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out"               
                -Bill Hicks-

__


Edited by Astral Pain (01/31/16 11:00 AM)


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OfflineWebster10
Up like Trump
Male

Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 9,966
Loc: Strawberry Fields Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Astral Pain]
    #22845986 - 01/31/16 10:32 AM (8 years, 3 hours ago)

Anyone who votes for Hillary isn't a serious voter.


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:leaf: :usa:


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InvisibleAstral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Webster10]
    #22846088 - 01/31/16 11:16 AM (8 years, 3 hours ago)

Bill sounded like he was breaking into a song when he started talking. He's losing it.



--------------------
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out"               
                -Bill Hicks-

__


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Invisibleamp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #22846526 - 01/31/16 01:12 PM (8 years, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

amp244 said:
Sanders' policies, and the policies of the Democratic party in general, are heavily rooted in Socialist/Communist principles.

His agenda includes a government-run health-care program that covers every American, expanding Social Security and making tuition free at public colleges.

Quote:

Ok so the government owns and runs the health-care program and you get to use it if and when need be. Communism.




Ok, so all of Europe and Australia is Communist... :lolsy::asianofapproval:




Hmm, I don't seem to remember saying that all the U.S. is completely communist, where's Falcon? If you fail to see the communism in a government owned and operated universal healthcare system I can't help you... Australia and all of Europe do adopt socialistic principals in certain aspects of their government. If I were to set up a government I would also incorporate aspects of socialism into parts of society. My contention is that this should not be the philosophy by which you mold your government. Socialism is bad, but necessary in the case of welfare for people who are needy. But welfare should be minimized to the greatest extent possible. You guys are all crying for wealth redistribution and you don't realize that all this redistribution will be in the form of entitlements and increased welfare programs, like healthcare. So the middle class wont be helped, its only the poor, furthering the incentive to stay on welfare forever, and further defining the line separating the classes. You'll either be wealthy, or on welfare. A master, or a dependent.

Quote:

Quote:

It will be funded by taxpayer money (ie: the portion of the citizenry who pay more than they take from the government). Socialism. There is no incentive to ever get off welfare if your quality of life doesn't change at all once you break that threshold.




There is more to life than money. Tesla was probably the greatest contributor to modern technological advancement since Newton, and he died penniless. He could have been filthy fucking rich. Money was not his motivator.



Its not about money, its about power and influence over your environment. Its about self-reliance, freewill, and self preservation. Money just happens to be the vehicle for exchange in an advanced economy and therefore is of utmost importance when dealing with issues of wealth and power. As a matter of fact, its THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

Tesla is a hero of mine. He very well may have developed zero point energy and we were never told. Tesla was a threat to the establishment and was therefore censored. He was getting funding up and until the point that energy companies realized they couldn't put a meter on free energy. You might not care about money, but your masters do.

Quote:

Quote:

And what about this expanded social security? Are we talking about a one time juicing so that it is properly funded? Or are we simply talking about expanding the Ponzi scheme that is SS? You see, the problem with socialism is, eventually you run out of other people's money. Once we're all on welfare and every multi-national corporation has left the U.S., who will fund our "entitlements"?




Except that's not a problem in Democratic Socialist countries, like Sweden and Denmark.



Hahaha, Denmark and Sweeden are #10 and 11 in the world respectfully on debt per capita. In Denmark every citizen represents $101,084 of debt. In the U.S. its a lot less at $58,255 (which is still fucking terrible). If you want that expressed as % of GDP; Den 180, Swe 187, USA 103. They've already run out of other people's money.

Quote:

Quote:

Free tuition at public colleges? Certainly sounds like a laudable proposal, however socialistic it may be. Colleges are super expensive now, but capitalism and the free markets didn't cause this. My grandfather paid for my father's education at the University of Maryland with pocket change. My other grandfather pre-paid for my education when I was a toddler in '90 for $15,000. That was good for a 4 year degree from James Madison University. If you want to pre-pay for a 4 year college degree in Virginia for a child born today. You would be paying $85,000 in one lump sum. There is something else that is causing this problem and it can be fixed without socialism. Something tells me it might have something to do with monetary policy at the Fed but lets not open that can of worms again...




No, let's open that can of worms, if it somehow supports your point. The reason tuition has gone up so much is obvious: Government backed student loans, and greed on behalf of both banks, and colleges.

Colleges know that students have access to enormous sums of money, regardless of their credit, and they know that education is necessary to attain any semblance of the "American dream". It's an easy sell. Banks expect to get their money and interest, because you can't file bankruptcy, and if you have any success in life, you will be forced to pay that loan back.

Bernie is advocating free public 4 year colleges. It's not a novel idea, and it works just fine everywhere it's been tried, that I know of.



You got me here. I hadn't even thought about it but that sounds like the typical banker scheme, getting the taxpayer to cover it. I agree with everything you and Bernie say about how its an injustice. You found the problem, now its time to go about discussing how to solve it, lets not just jump to socialism because Bernie Sanders is identifying the same problem as us. And lets take a step back and look at what you are actually saying here: the gov't is causing the problem, so more gov't intervention is needed...typical. That being said, the argument can be made that an investment in the education of citizens will pay dividends in the future, and for this reason alone, "free" college is something I could get along just fine with. So long as the colleges are operating in a Non-profit manner *cough cough* and aren't raping the fucking gov't ie: the taxpayer like they do with healthcare.

The fucking government should not be involved in the economy to the extent they are. Price fixes, tariffs, gov't assured loans, etc, are bad. They should be avoided whenever possible. You are simply taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. If the case must be made for gov't intervention, it should be temporary. You don't need fucking socialism and welfare to turn this shit around. Progress can be achieved much faster with free markets where resources and money are allocated to where they are needed most.

Quote:

Sometimes it seems as if Democrats are willing to destroy the entire economy, so long as it lessens the income disparity. You need to look passed the 'What a beautiful world it would be if college was free and everyone had healthcare' and examine the long term and secondary consequences of these proposals.




Sometimes it seems as if Republicans are wiling to destroy the economy, as long as it enriches billionaires... The recession comes to mind.

I will say this again, because a lot of people don't seem to understand that: TRICKLE DOWN DOESN'T FUCKING WORK!



I get you man. Im not a republican, I don't like income inequality just as much as you. Its big gov't that's hindering the economy from actually functioning like it should. You are blaming capitalism and the free markets, but they are being restricted. The FED sets the fucking interest rate for crying out loud, this is in no way capitalism or a free market. Blaming capitalism and suggesting a need for socialism is like putting a bigger motor in your car and shooting all the tires out. Then turning around and saying, "look this motor didn't make me go any faster, we need a different one!" The motor is working fine, that's not the problem, so lets not fix it.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (01/31/16 02:31 PM)


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OfflineBigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 55 minutes, 28 seconds
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Astral Pain]
    #22846567 - 01/31/16 01:22 PM (8 years, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Astral Pain said:
Bill sounded like he was breaking into a song when he started talking. He's losing it.






I think Bill has some sort of illness. He seems more and more decrepit every time I see him. Bernie is in better shape than Bill Clinton lol!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleAstral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22846639 - 01/31/16 01:54 PM (8 years, 36 minutes ago)

It look as if he's wearing a mouth piece. Snorting all that yayo with underaged girls back in the day rotted his teeth out.



He's got a popeye elbow thing going on with the muscle mass of a 90 year old woman. He looks like Bea Arthur for christ's sake. With HIV. I've heard this is what happens over time after getting a vasectomy.



--------------------
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out"               
                -Bill Hicks-

__


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OfflineBigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs
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Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
    #22846656 - 01/31/16 01:59 PM (8 years, 31 minutes ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

amp244 said:
Sanders' policies, and the policies of the Democratic party in general, are heavily rooted in Socialist/Communist principles.

His agenda includes a government-run health-care program that covers every American, expanding Social Security and making tuition free at public colleges.

Quote:

Ok so the government owns and runs the health-care program and you get to use it if and when need be. Communism.




Ok, so all of Europe and Australia is Communist... :lolsy::asianofapproval:




Hmm, I don't seem to remember saying that all the U.S. is completely communist, where's Falcon? If you fail to see the communism in a government owned and operated universal healthcare system I can't help you... Australia and all of Europe do adopt socialistic principals in certain aspects of their government. If I were to set up a government I would also incorporate aspects of socialism into parts of society. My contention is that this should not be the philosophy by which you mold your government. Socialism is bad, but necessary in the case of welfare for people who are needy. But welfare should be minimized to the greatest extent possible. You guys are all crying for wealth redistribution and you don't realize that all this redistribution will be in the form of entitlements and increased welfare programs, like healthcare. So the middle class wont be helped, its only the poor, furthering the incentive to stay on welfare forever, and further defining the line separating the classes. You'll either be wealthy, or on welfare. A master, or a dependent.




I believe that our middle class will be strengthened in a variety of ways. The money that goes to the bottom slowly rises to the top (and passes through the middle in that process). I disagree with you, unless entitlements are equivalent to middle-class incomes of today, in which case, I don't see a problem.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It will be funded by taxpayer money (ie: the portion of the citizenry who pay more than they take from the government). Socialism. There is no incentive to ever get off welfare if your quality of life doesn't change at all once you break that threshold.




There is more to life than money. Tesla was probably the greatest contributor to modern technological advancement since Newton, and he died penniless. He could have been filthy fucking rich. Money was not his motivator.



Its not about money, its about power and influence over your environment. Its about self-reliance, freewill, and self preservation. Money just happens to be the vehicle for exchange in an advanced economy and therefore is of utmost importance when dealing with issues of wealth and power. As a matter of fact, its THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

Tesla is a hero of mine. He very well may have developed zero point energy and we were never told. Tesla was a threat to the establishment and was therefore censored. He was getting funding up and until the point that energy companies realized they couldn't put a meter on free energy. You might not care about money, but your masters do.




Exactly. Capitalism killed Tesla's dream.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

And what about this expanded social security? Are we talking about a one time juicing so that it is properly funded? Or are we simply talking about expanding the Ponzi scheme that is SS? You see, the problem with socialism is, eventually you run out of other people's money. Once we're all on welfare and every multi-national corporation has left the U.S., who will fund our "entitlements"?




Except that's not a problem in Democratic Socialist countries, like Sweden and Denmark.



Hahaha, Denmark and Sweeden are #10 and 11 in the world respectfully on debt per capita. In Denmark every citizen represents $101,084 of debt. In the U.S. its a lot less at $58,255 (which is still fucking terrible). If you want that expressed as % of GDP; Den 180, Swe 187, USA 103. They've already run out of other people money.




As of 2014, Denmark's debt to GDP was 45.6%, Finland 55.6%, and Sweden 44.9%. I think debt to GDP is a much more important marker than debt per capita. These countries have higher tax rates also, so debt to GDP is even more relative, because more of that GDP goes to paying that debt.

If you want to talk about debt per capita, let's look at household debt comparisons, because that's where the rubber hits the road here.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=ds22a34krhq5p_&met_y=gd_pc_gdp&idim=country:dk:se:fi&hl=en&dl=en

This is the average household debt:
Quote:

Debt is an unwelcome guest at the table in many American households. The average U.S. household with debt carries $15,355 in credit card debt and $129,579 in total debt.




http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-data/average-credit-card-debt-household/

This is much higher than the average 'debt per capita' as far as state debt, for these socialist countries. If you add the debt per capita to household debt, American debt would surely be higher.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Free tuition at public colleges? Certainly sounds like a laudable proposal, however socialistic it may be. Colleges are super expensive now, but capitalism and the free markets didn't cause this. My grandfather paid for my father's education at the University of Maryland with pocket change. My other grandfather pre-paid for my education when I was a toddler in '90 for $15,000. That was good for a 4 year degree from James Madison University. If you want to pre-pay for a 4 year college degree in Virginia for a child born today. You would be paying $85,000 in one lump sum. There is something else that is causing this problem and it can be fixed without socialism. Something tells me it might have something to do with monetary policy at the Fed but lets not open that can of worms again...




No, let's open that can of worms, if it somehow supports your point. The reason tuition has gone up so much is obvious: Government backed student loans, and greed on behalf of both banks, and colleges.

Colleges know that students have access to enormous sums of money, regardless of their credit, and they know that education is necessary to attain any semblance of the "American dream". It's an easy sell. Banks expect to get their money and interest, because you can't file bankruptcy, and if you have any success in life, you will be forced to pay that loan back.

Bernie is advocating free public 4 year colleges. It's not a novel idea, and it works just fine everywhere it's been tried, that I know of.



You got me here. I hadn't even thought about it but that sounds like the typical banker scheme and get the taxpayer to cover it. I agree with everything you and Bernie say about how its an injustice. You found the problem, now its time to go about discussing how to solve it, lets not just jump to socialism because Bernie Sanders is identifying the same problem as us. And lets take a step back and look at what you are actually saying here: the gov't is causing the problem, so more gov't intervention is needed...typical.




That's not what I'm saying. This isn't a 'more government' or 'less government' issue. In fact, those terms don't apply to any issue. It's more complicated than 'bigger' or 'smaller' government. Government backed loans benefit banks and colleges. Free tuition would not. The key here is 'different government'.

You don't just throw he baby out with the bathwater. Our government is owned by wealthy interests. We need to take it back for the people. It works very well for the people that created it, and it can work very well for us if we 're-create' it.

Quote:

That being said, the argument can be made that an investment in the education of citizens will pay dividends in the future, and for this reason alone, "free" college is something I could get along just fine with. So long as the colleges are operating in a Non-profit manner *cough cough* and aren't raping the fucking gov't ie: the taxpayer like they do with healthcare.




That is another issue, and no doubt a good point.

Quote:

The fucking government should not be involved in the economy to the extent they are. Price fixes, tariffs, gov't assured loans, etc, are bad. They should be avoided whenever possible. You are simply taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. If the case must be made for gov't intervention, it should be temporary. You don't need fucking socialism and welfare to turn this shit around. Progress can be achieved much faster with free markets where resources and money are allocated to where they are needed most.




I disagree. Free markets do not foster progress. They foster greed and corruption, which is why so many markets are not what you might call 'free markets' anymore. The monopolistic capitalists wanted government intervention to enrich them, and they paid for it. They bought our government. Capitalism promotes the kind of consolidation of wealth that is capable of buying the government.

Quote:

Quote:

Sometimes it seems as if Democrats are willing to destroy the entire economy, so long as it lessens the income disparity. You need to look passed the 'What a beautiful world it would be if college was free and everyone had healthcare' and examine the long term and secondary consequences of these proposals.




Sometimes it seems as if Republicans are wiling to destroy the economy, as long as it enriches billionaires... The recession comes to mind.

I will say this again, because a lot of people don't seem to understand that: TRICKLE DOWN DOESN'T FUCKING WORK!



I get you man. Im not a republican, I don't like income inequality just as much as you. Its big gov't that's hindering the economy from actually functioning like it should.




On some level, I agree with you. It is the Fascist component of government. There is no doubt that government has played a role in the massive consolidation of wealth in this country. However, compounding of wealth is a core component of Capitalism. Capitalists Capitalize on Capital. It 'takes money to make money', and all that jazz. Wealth grows exponentially.

Quote:

You are blaming capitalism and the free markets, but they are being restricted.




I would argue that the 'restrictions' on those markets are a direct result of the free market system you speak of. At a certain level, it becomes easier to rig the game, than to try to remain competitive.

Quote:

The FED sets the fucking interest rate for crying out loud, this is in no way capitalism or a free market. Blaming capitalism and suggesting a need for socialism is like putting a bigger motor in your car and shooting all the tires out. Then turning around and saying, "look this motor didn't make me go any faster!" The motor is working fine, that's not the problem, so lets not fix it.




I disagree with your assertion. However, I think a true socialist movement has to work from the ground up, and not the other way around. I would like to see a government that promoted the creation of worker cooperatives and unions, instead of trying to orchestrate Socialism itself. If you want the people to govern themselves, they have to be involved in the process.


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Invisibleamp244
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22847744 - 01/31/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Exactly. Capitalism killed Tesla's dream.



An unfortunate truth. But like I said, I am not against gov't programs in certain instances. Scientific research being one of them.


Quote:


If you want to talk about debt per capita, let's look at household debt comparisons, because that's where the rubber hits the road here.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=ds22a34krhq5p_&met_y=gd_pc_gdp&idim=country:dk:se:fi&hl=en&dl=en

This is the average household debt:
Quote:

Debt is an unwelcome guest at the table in many American households. The average U.S. household with debt carries $15,355 in credit card debt and $129,579 in total debt.




http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-data/average-credit-card-debt-household/

This is much higher than the average 'debt per capita' as far as state debt, for these socialist countries. If you add the debt per capita to household debt, American debt would surely be higher.



You should read that carefully again. "The average U.S. household with debt..." So they are disregarding the households without debt... I would hazard a guess that the average U.S. household is doing much better.

Quote:

Quote:


You got me here. I hadn't even thought about it but that sounds like the typical banker scheme and get the taxpayer to cover it. I agree with everything you and Bernie say about how its an injustice. You found the problem, now its time to go about discussing how to solve it, lets not just jump to socialism because Bernie Sanders is identifying the same problem as us. And lets take a step back and look at what you are actually saying here: the gov't is causing the problem, so more gov't intervention is needed...typical.




That's not what I'm saying. This isn't a 'more government' or 'less government' issue. In fact, those terms don't apply to any issue. It's more complicated than 'bigger' or 'smaller' government. Government backed loans benefit banks and colleges. Free tuition would not. The key here is 'different government.



You will have to elaborate on what you mean by free tuition. Who will own the universities and how will they be funded?


Quote:

You don't just throw he baby out with the bathwater. Our government is owned by wealthy interests. We need to take it back for the people. It works very well for the people that created it, and it can work very well for us if we 're-create' it.



amen brother.

Quote:


Quote:

The fucking government should not be involved in the economy to the extent they are. Price fixes, tariffs, gov't assured loans, etc, are bad. They should be avoided whenever possible. You are simply taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. If the case must be made for gov't intervention, it should be temporary. You don't need fucking socialism and welfare to turn this shit around. Progress can be achieved much faster with free markets where resources and money are allocated to where they are needed most.




I disagree. Free markets do not foster progress. They foster greed and corruption, which is why so many markets are not what you might call 'free markets' anymore. The monopolistic capitalists wanted government intervention to enrich them, and they paid for it. They bought our government. Capitalism promotes the kind of consolidation of wealth that is capable of buying the government.



There are ways to address issues that may be prevalent in a capitalist society. Anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws must be enforced. The SEC needs to do its job. Capitalism would work within the confines of a honest government much better than socialism will work in the hands of our current government. Like I said before, I'm advocating a balance of philosophies, depending upon the particular situation.. I agree that our constitution needs to be updated or re-written to address the corporate influence. And for God sake people need to be held accountable when they do commit crimes. We really need an Icelandic revolution. 

Quote:

Quote:



I get you man. Im not a republican, I don't like income inequality just as much as you. Its big gov't that's hindering the economy from actually functioning like it should.




On some level, I agree with you. It is the Fascist component of government. There is no doubt that government has played a role in the massive consolidation of wealth in this country. However, compounding of wealth is a core component of Capitalism. Capitalists Capitalize on Capital. It 'takes money to make money', and all that jazz. Wealth grows exponentially.



And the average citizen would enjoy this exponential growth if he weren't preyed upon by criminals.

Quote:

Quote:

You are blaming capitalism and the free markets, but they are being restricted.




I would argue that the 'restrictions' on those markets are a direct result of the free market system you speak of. At a certain level, it becomes easier to rig the game, than to try to remain competitive.



Exactly, this rigging you speak of is illegal... The laws need to be enforced if you want things to work correctly. These restrictions are a result of heavy lobbying from special interests. Lobbying is a major fail point of our system of gov't. Once again, its not the motor... 


Quote:

I think a true socialist movement has to work from the ground up, and not the other way around. I would like to see a government that promoted the creation of worker cooperatives and unions, instead of trying to orchestrate Socialism itself. If you want the people to govern themselves, they have to be involved in the process.



Worker coops and Unions are fine, so long as they keep their money out of the government as well. You have to watch corruption on all levels because it permeates society. Unions fit just as well in capitalism as they do with any other system.


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How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (01/31/16 07:58 PM)


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Invisibleamp244
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Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22847811 - 01/31/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

If I were to set up a government I would also incorporate aspects of socialism into parts of society. My contention is that this should not be the philosophy by which you mold your government. Socialism is bad, but necessary in the case of welfare for people who are needy. But welfare should be minimized to the greatest extent possible. You guys are all crying for wealth redistribution and you don't realize that all this redistribution will be in the form of entitlements and increased welfare programs, like healthcare. So the middle class wont be helped, its only the poor, furthering the incentive to stay on welfare forever, and further defining the line separating the classes. You'll either be wealthy, or on welfare. A master, or a dependent.




I believe that our middle class will be strengthened in a variety of ways. The money that goes to the bottom slowly rises to the top (and passes through the middle in that process). I disagree with you, unless entitlements are equivalent to middle-class incomes of today, in which case, I don't see a problem.



1.) I don't see how money could possibly go from the bottom and rise through the middle on its way to the top. The money going to the bottom is going to satisfy basic needs, or be squandered away via materialism. Those disciplined enough to save will see their saving confiscated via inflation. Small businesses would either need to be subsidized, or wall-mart and other established corporations would take over every facet of society the gov't wasn't already running.

2.)I'd see a big problem if entitlements were as high as middle class incomes. As I stated before, I am here concerned with personal liberties and freedoms, and the ability for every able bodied man and woman to achieve complete self-reliance and financial stability with modest effort. Its not about the money, its about people having the ability, tools, and power to look after themselves.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (01/31/16 08:04 PM)


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InvisibleAstral Pain
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Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
    #22861792 - 02/03/16 10:25 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

This has nothing to do with emails, but has relevance rgarding indictments of Hillary.

Feds fight disclosure of Hillary Clinton Whitewater indictment drafts

http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2016/02/feds-fight-disclosure-of-hillary-clinton-whitewater-indictment-drafts-218681

Quote:

The National Archives is fighting a lawsuit trying to force disclosure of several draft indictments of Hillary Clinton prepared by a Whitewater prosecutor in the 1990s.





The Politico article never went into speculation as to the specifics of the requested drafts, but perjury seems to be the culprit per Tom Fitton in a Breitbart article from October of last year.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/26/judicial-watch-uncovers-draft-hillary-clinton-whitewater-indictment/

Quote:

If one wants context on how to judge Hillary Clinton’s testimony before the Benghazi Select Committee, it helps to know history. Hillary Clinton has a history of lying under oath.

Recently, we filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit against the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) in the U.S. District Court for District of Columbia seeking access to draft indictments of Hillary Clinton in the Whitewater scandal. The National Archives confirmed that draft indictments of Mrs. Clinton exist but refused to release the records, evidently in order to protect Mrs. Clinton’s alleged privacy in these law enforcement records. I suspect you agree with us that Hillary Clinton’s “privacy” trumps your right to know.




Wait...






Here's some further detail shedding light on the discovery of the indictment drafts after reading some links in the article above. Jesus christ, how many lives does this woman have left to spare at this point. If these indictments would have been followed through(in 1996) and stuck, Hillary would have never served a single day in any office. The more I read, the more infuriating this rabbit hole gets.   

From 1999 :mad2:

http://nypost.com/1999/03/19/hillarys-close-escape-indictment-was-drafted/

Quote:


One of Kenneth Starr’s prosecutors testified yesterday that he drafted – but never sought – a Whitewater indictment of First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Prosecutor Hickman Ewing’s revelation in the Susan McDougal trial in Little Rock could haunt the First Lady if she decides to run for the Senate in New York.

Ewing said he “had problems” with some of her statements to investigators in April 1995 and drafted an indictment shortly after September 1996. He said he showed it to other prosecutors in Starr’s office but went no further.




                             


--------------------
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out"               
                -Bill Hicks-

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,368
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Astral Pain]
    #22863196 - 02/04/16 11:04 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

^ ok trey gowdy calm the fuck down.

She's not gonna be indicted.


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OfflineWebster10
Up like Trump
Male


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Loc: Strawberry Fields Flag
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22863479 - 02/04/16 12:16 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
^ ok trey gowdy calm the fuck down.

She's not gonna be indicted.



You better pray to God she isn't.

Does associating those factual articles with the name trey gowdy make them less valid IYO?

It would really suck if your prized horse was punished for her illegal actions wouldnt it


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Offlinesweeper54
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Registered: 11/07/12
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Webster10]
    #22864197 - 02/04/16 03:25 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Webster10 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
^ ok trey gowdy calm the fuck down.

She's not gonna be indicted.



You better pray to God she isn't.

Does associating those factual articles with the name trey gowdy make them less valid IYO?

It would really suck if your prized horse was punished for her illegal actions wouldnt it





Not my fuck prized horse, nag yes. But I'd love to see her get the D nod and Cruz get the R nod, then have her indicted and Cruz throw out for being born in Canada

That would stir the pot of shit. Fuck'm ALL!

GO BERNIE!


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Posts: 33,368
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Webster10]
    #22864279 - 02/04/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Webster10 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
^ ok trey gowdy calm the fuck down.

She's not gonna be indicted.



You better pray to God she isn't.

Does associating those factual articles with the name trey gowdy make them less valid IYO?

It would really suck if your prized horse was punished for her illegal actions wouldnt it




> atheist
> im associating OP with trey gowdy, not the articles, because all he posts are negative Clinton comments.
> not my prized horse
> itd be great if she were indicted because itd help my horse


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OfflineWebster10
Up like Trump
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22864375 - 02/04/16 04:20 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

But if hillary gets the nod, you will indeed vote for her, right?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Webster10]
    #22864951 - 02/04/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

I will not.

If you had asked me a year ago i wouldve said yes, but the way she and the establishment have not only steered this race in her favor, but slandered Bernie in the process, that woman doesnt deserve my vote.

I'll vote 3rd party or write in Sanders.

Maybe four years of Trump or Cruz will teach the DNC they cant ignore the progressive wing, or continue to take working class and minority votes for granted.


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InvisibleAstral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22865354 - 02/04/16 08:45 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

> im associating OP with trey gowdy, not the articles, because all he posts are negative Clinton comments.




Positive comments about Hillary are nonexistent. Hillary is, and always has been, a disingenuous disgrace of a human being. She's an unaccomplished coattail rider who believes she deserves to be handed the presidency. Everyone knows this. I'd rather post the the unbelievable shit that's happening than watch this history making train wreck in silence. It's like cheering for the house to win by not trashing her.


--------------------
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out"               
                -Bill Hicks-

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