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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: qman]
#22480879 - 11/05/15 12:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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qman said: What about arresting drug users and putting them through the criminal justice system and then incarcerating them for 10 years?
I mean all of that does contribute to GDP, but does it really have any value?
I haven't been following this thread much as a lot of it is over my head.
But isn't value subjective? In this case are we asking if this has a value to society as a whole? Clearly it's valuable to for-profit prison institutions and the politicians/judges/police they employ.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22481143 - 11/05/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
qman said: What about arresting drug users and putting them through the criminal justice system and then incarcerating them for 10 years?
I mean all of that does contribute to GDP, but does it really have any value?
I haven't been following this thread much as a lot of it is over my head.
But isn't value subjective? In this case are we asking if this has a value to society as a whole? Clearly it's valuable to for-profit prison institutions and the politicians/judges/police they employ.
Well, it's the same argument when an illegal comes into the US and then gets arrested and goes through the criminal justice system, YES that adds to GDP and the people that promote this agenda never quantity the quality of this GDP.
I could break the windows of 20 cars tonight and they will all need to be repaired, and that will also add to GDP as well, was any utility created? No.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22481348 - 11/05/15 02:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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amp244 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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amp244 said: I guess you can't blame poor people for being stupid, but lending institutions still thought that the number of defaults would be manageable.
I agree with you here, except the lending institutions offloaded their loans.
understood, but they still would want their product to be marketable. They were still seeking continued operations.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the mortgage backed securities had the names of the originating bank tied to them. I'm not even sure they all came from a single bank; I think they were a mix from many banks.
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amp244 said: I still think too much of the blame is being put on congress. Yes they are the ones in the position of power, yes they are the ones borrowing/spending, but you have to understand who got them there. The congress has no incentive to curtail spending because spending is what the corporate powers that got them there want them to do. If they stop spending, they probably wont be congressmen/women anymore. More wars, more welfare, more debt, its all in the interest of wall street. This isn't a result of some inept congress, that's trying its damnedest. This is a result of the money behind the curtain.
I agree, but even if Congress is mostly controlled by the wealthy (and I agree it is), I still consider it their fault if they make decisions that benefit the wealthy.
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amp244 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't understand how you think smoothing the boom/bust cycles leads to income inequality. I would argue it's irrelevant to income inequality, or even that the opposite is true.
I think its quite clear why it leads to income inequality. There is no de-leveraging taking place to correct the economy. A massive deleveraging would effect everyone, but it would effect the upper 1% the hardest. They have more of their money tied into financial assets. To avoid the market correction, they put more money, and consequently more wealth, into the hands of that upper percentile.
Deleveraging is supposed to take place during the boom cycle, helping the middle class in the process.
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amp244 said: When the same product can be counted 3 times in the GDP, your GDP isn't exactly realistic information.
That's true, but it kind of doesn't matter. Few people care about the actual GDP number (is $16 trillion a good GDP or a bad GDP?) What's relevant is change over time, and as long a good consistent process is used to measure it, we can follow changes and that's what's important. Reducing GDP when home ownership grows doesn't really make sense.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: qman]
#22481367 - 11/05/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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qman said: Fal is against income and wealth inequality, but every time we point out the polices that produce that outcome, he defends it claiming it "saved the economy and avoided a depression". He can't have it both ways, either one supports the policies and their outcomes or they don't.
Not true. I always criticize Congress for not helping Main St as much as Wall St. And saving the economy from a depression does actually help the middle class.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: qman]
#22481419 - 11/05/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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qman said:
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amp244 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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amp244 said: Newly constructed houses are added to GDP when they are built and first sold. The construction costs as well as the gain made on the sale by whatever firm sold it are added to GDP up front. I can understand that interest on the mortgage should be counted as it is paid, but counting the mortgage payments on the principal is double accounting.
GDP should measure goods or services that are produced. An increase in home ownership in and of itself does not necessarily mean anything NEW has been produced. Unless I buy a newly constructed house, nothing, save for the interest on my loan, realty fees, appraisals, etc. should be included into GDP. Houses are not considered consumption goods/services like rent, they are investments. You should not be able to count them over and over again every-time they are sold. Lets say I buy a new house and pay off the mortgage (it has already been doubly accounted for). Then I sell it to Hostile Universe, who took a home loan to buy it. Now his mortgage payments are being used to triply account for the same product! If the house continues to be sold, it could be accounted for even more times!
So to answer your question on whether growing home ownership is good, bad, or neutral on the economy, I would submit a qualified answer. Neutral if the houses are used, good if the houses are new.
I agree with what you're saying; I was just explaining to qman/hostileuniverse why it's done that way.
Yea I was just saying that it shouldn't be done this way. When the same product can be counted 3 times in the GDP, your GDP isn't exactly realistic information.
What about the quality of GDP, is performing a $500k surgery for a unjustified operation on a 80 year old productive?
What about arresting drug users and putting them through the criminal justice system and then incarcerating them for 10 years?
I mean all of that does contribute to GDP, but does it really have any value?
I totally get your point that all of the above isn't really bringing much value to the equation, and it absolutely has an effect on the quality of GDP. But at least these things are services actually rendered and consumed, although it is an interesting and ironic point that things like the prison industrial complex are contributing to the growth of our nation. I just think that subjectively going in and handpicking what specific services to include would be a daunting task.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
Edited by amp244 (11/05/15 02:58 PM)
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: qman]
#22481453 - 11/05/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
qman said: What about arresting drug users and putting them through the criminal justice system and then incarcerating them for 10 years?
I mean all of that does contribute to GDP, but does it really have any value?
I haven't been following this thread much as a lot of it is over my head.
But isn't value subjective? In this case are we asking if this has a value to society as a whole? Clearly it's valuable to for-profit prison institutions and the politicians/judges/police they employ.
Well, it's the same argument when an illegal comes into the US and then gets arrested and goes through the criminal justice system, YES that adds to GDP and the people that promote this agenda never quantity the quality of this GDP.
I could break the windows of 20 cars tonight and they will all need to be repaired, and that will also add to GDP as well, was any utility created? No.
Exactly. In the case of the broken window, you are simply diverting wealth from one area to the other. Sure the window company makes money, but the man who's window you broke can't buy that coat he always wanted and the coat company loses a sale. Some people don't see the logical fallacy in the broken window example, and argue that it stimulates the economy. I find the same to be true in regards to post-war rebuilding. People point to all the houses and infrastructure building that is now putting people to work, but they fail to realize that all of this money could have, and surely would have, been spent elsewhere.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22481458 - 11/05/15 02:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said: In the case of the broken window, you are simply diverting wealth from one area to the other. Sure the window company makes money, but the man who's window you broke can't buy that coat he always wanted and the coat company loses a sale. Some people don't see the logical fallacy in the broken window example, and argue that it stimulates the economy. I find the same to be true in regards to post-war rebuilding. People point to all the houses and infrastructure building that is now putting people to work, but they fail to realize that all of this money could have, and surely would have, been spent elsewhere.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22481682 - 11/05/15 04:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
amp244 said: In the case of the broken window, you are simply diverting wealth from one area to the other. Sure the window company makes money, but the man who's window you broke can't buy that coat he always wanted and the coat company loses a sale. Some people don't see the logical fallacy in the broken window example, and argue that it stimulates the economy. I find the same to be true in regards to post-war rebuilding. People point to all the houses and infrastructure building that is now putting people to work, but they fail to realize that all of this money could have, and surely would have, been spent elsewhere.

This is true, but as technology progresses, we are going to have less and less jobs. At some point we will either have to agree to stop technological progress, kill off a significant portion of society, break windows to make jobs, or embrace Socialism and spread the fruits of our collective progress as a species.
As the labor market loses more and more slack, the middle class and the poor lose their place, and their grip on any meaningful share of tye economic pie.
In fact, I believe that there have been technological advancements which have been stifled in order to preserve the power structure, or even to preserve jobs, as it is. A couple years ago I read about a mouthwash that was in stage 2 clinical trials with the FDA, which would literally eliminate tooth decay by targetting the specific bacteria which cause tooth decay, and allowing benign bacteria to flourish and overtake the habitat (your mouth). As amateur mycologists, I'm sure we all have some level of understanding of how this works. It has been years now, and I have to literally dig deep to even find any information about it anymore. I feel like the American Dental Association killed it, because it was a job killer. Some of the best jobs in the country, I might add.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22481840 - 11/05/15 04:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: ...as technology progresses, we are going to have less and less jobs.
They (whoever 'they' is) have been saying this since the robot 'Elektro' was introduced at the 1939 World Fair. The pitch was that robots would soon cut American's work week in half. Interestingly, people are still working as much today as they ever have. I'm not sure if/when we'll see a loss in jobs due to automation, but to combat this Government would simply need to reduce the work week from 40 hours to a lower number.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22481862 - 11/05/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
amp244 said: In the case of the broken window, you are simply diverting wealth from one area to the other. Sure the window company makes money, but the man who's window you broke can't buy that coat he always wanted and the coat company loses a sale. Some people don't see the logical fallacy in the broken window example, and argue that it stimulates the economy. I find the same to be true in regards to post-war rebuilding. People point to all the houses and infrastructure building that is now putting people to work, but they fail to realize that all of this money could have, and surely would have, been spent elsewhere.

This is true, but as technology progresses, we are going to have less and less jobs. At some point we will either have to agree to stop technological progress, kill off a significant portion of society, break windows to make jobs, or embrace Socialism and spread the fruits of our collective progress as a species.
As the labor market loses more and more slack, the middle class and the poor lose their place, and their grip on any meaningful share of tye economic pie.
In fact, I believe that there have been technological advancements which have been stifled in order to preserve the power structure, or even to preserve jobs, as it is. A couple years ago I read about a mouthwash that was in stage 2 clinical trials with the FDA, which would literally eliminate tooth decay by targetting the specific bacteria which cause tooth decay, and allowing benign bacteria to flourish and overtake the habitat (your mouth). As amateur mycologists, I'm sure we all have some level of understanding of how this works. It has been years now, and I have to literally dig deep to even find any information about it anymore. I feel like the American Dental Association killed it, because it was a job killer. Some of the best jobs in the country, I might add.
I think the notion that technological advancements have a negative effect on net jobs is yet another logical fallacy. This argument has been made all throughout history and been proven false, but has never died. Why should goods be carried from New York to London by cargo ship, when a much greater number of men could be employed transporting it by row-boat? The fallacy lies in simply focusing on the workers within whatever industry that machinery/technology is introduced. You ignore the people who are employed designing and building the new machines. Furthermore you are neglecting to take into account the benefit to COGS that this technology may produce, which in most instances gets transferred to the consumer through lower prices, for he now has more money to spend elsewhere.
But if we suppose that the business owner who employs the new machines/technology choses not to lower his price, and instead collects all the profits for himself, he will still pay it back in a number of ways. He will either use this money to expand his business and buy more machines, invest the money in other industries, or increase his own personal consumption. In any event, for every dollar he has saved directly from laying off his former employees, he pays out indirectly to the wages of the machine/technology producers, the workers of another capital industry, or to finance a new home, car, or other luxury. He indirectly gives as many jobs as he has destroyed directly. The next thing you know, his competitors are buying the new machines/technology as well, employing more people in the nascent machine industry. The competition drives prices down and inevitably the purchasing power gets passed on to the consumers. All other industries are now capable of employing more people than they were capable of previously, because they now have a greater demand for their products.
So while yes, technology can have devastating effects on specific industries, it has no such effect on net-jobs as a whole.
I think the FDA is highly compromised as well, and that story does not surprise me in the least bit. Your example serves as a good way to illustrate my sentiments on the technology issue. Perhaps they were protecting the dental industry as you have noted above. And perhaps the mouthwash would have been devastating to this specific industry. But once again, the indirect benefits to the consumers of the economy, who would then able to save thousands in dental bills, would have offset this loss.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22481873 - 11/05/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Technology has been taking jobs for as long as we've had capitalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22481941 - 11/05/15 04:54 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: ...as technology progresses, we are going to have less and less jobs.
They (whoever 'they' is) have been saying this since the robot 'Elektro' was introduced at the 1939 World Fair. The pitch was that robots would soon cut American's work week in half. Interestingly, people are still working as much today as they ever have. I'm not sure if/when we'll see a loss in jobs due to automation, but to combat this Government would simply need to reduce the work week from 40 hours to a lower number.
Oh man I thought we were about to have a break through moment there fal, haha. I was fist pumping and everything. Then you hit it with that reduced work week...
I don't think reducing the work week will do anything positive for the economy at large. There will be no increase in man-hours or production. As a matter of fact it could be argued that production efficiencies will diminish due to unskilled labor entering the workforce. Total wages/purchasing power will be unchanged. The only thing that will happen is that the workers previously employed will be subsidizing the newly employed workers, and I don't like socialism.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22481960 - 11/05/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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amp244 said: I think the notion that technological advancements have a negative effect on net jobs is yet another logical fallacy.
This is just one view. And yes, it is fallacious.
Quote:
The other premise is that it is possible for long-term difficulty to arise that has nothing to do with any lump of labour. In this view, the amount of work that can exist is infinite, but (1) machines can do most of the "easy" work, (2) the definition of what is "easy" expands as information technology progresses, and (3) the work that lies beyond "easy" (the work that requires more skill, talent, knowledge, and insightful connections between pieces of knowledge) may require greater cognitive faculties than most humans are able to supply, as point 2 continually advances. This latter view is the one supported by most modern advocates of the possibility of long-term, systemic technological unemployment.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22482140 - 11/05/15 05:43 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I'm not sure if/when we'll see a loss in jobs due to automation, but to combat this Government would simply need to reduce the work week from 40 hours to a lower number.
I don't think reducing the work week will do anything positive for the economy at large. There will be no increase in man-hours or production.
Exactly. This solution was specifically to address the unlikely problem of having jobs replaced by automation. If that scenario ever happened, you wouldn't want to increase man-hours.
Quote:
amp244 said: As a matter of fact it could be argued that production efficiencies will diminish due to unskilled labor entering the workforce.
I don't follow this argument at all. Why would reducing people's work week from 40 hours to a lower number (say 30 hours) increase the amount of unskilled labor??? You'd still need both skilled and unskilled labor, just less of each.
Quote:
amp244 said: Total wages/purchasing power will be unchanged.
Agreed.
Quote:
amp244 said: The only thing that will happen is that the workers previously employed will be subsidizing the newly employed workers, and I don't like socialism.
I don't get it again. Are you saying you'd rather have 25% of the existing workforce be unemployed rather than having the existing workforce only working 75% of their current hours? Because... socialism?
I'm probably misinterpreting what you meant, so please clarify.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 2 hours, 4 minutes
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22482172 - 11/05/15 05:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: ...as technology progresses, we are going to have less and less jobs.
They (whoever 'they' is) have been saying this since the robot 'Elektro' was introduced at the 1939 World Fair. The pitch was that robots would soon cut American's work week in half. Interestingly, people are still working as much today as they ever have. I'm not sure if/when we'll see a loss in jobs due to automation, but to combat this Government would simply need to reduce the work week from 40 hours to a lower number.
I've literally watched as Robots replaced high paying welding jobs in the auto industry. When I was 20 years old, I used to operate 3 welders at once that would do the work of 10-15 employees.
Robots are ever growing in their capabilities. Shit, drones are replacing fighter pilots.
It may not have been a reality in the 30's, but we can clearly see that it is on the horizon for us.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (11/05/15 05:51 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22482194 - 11/05/15 05:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Technology has been taking jobs for as long as we've had capitalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment
And technology has been also been creating jobs for as long as we've had capitalism. I work in the semiconductor industry in Silicon Valley, an industry that never even existed 30 years ago. The long term unemployment rate hasn't gone down much as a result of technology yet, though I wouldn't be surprised if it happens someday.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 2 hours, 4 minutes
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22482254 - 11/05/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
amp244 said: In the case of the broken window, you are simply diverting wealth from one area to the other. Sure the window company makes money, but the man who's window you broke can't buy that coat he always wanted and the coat company loses a sale. Some people don't see the logical fallacy in the broken window example, and argue that it stimulates the economy. I find the same to be true in regards to post-war rebuilding. People point to all the houses and infrastructure building that is now putting people to work, but they fail to realize that all of this money could have, and surely would have, been spent elsewhere.

This is true, but as technology progresses, we are going to have less and less jobs. At some point we will either have to agree to stop technological progress, kill off a significant portion of society, break windows to make jobs, or embrace Socialism and spread the fruits of our collective progress as a species.
As the labor market loses more and more slack, the middle class and the poor lose their place, and their grip on any meaningful share of tye economic pie.
In fact, I believe that there have been technological advancements which have been stifled in order to preserve the power structure, or even to preserve jobs, as it is. A couple years ago I read about a mouthwash that was in stage 2 clinical trials with the FDA, which would literally eliminate tooth decay by targetting the specific bacteria which cause tooth decay, and allowing benign bacteria to flourish and overtake the habitat (your mouth). As amateur mycologists, I'm sure we all have some level of understanding of how this works. It has been years now, and I have to literally dig deep to even find any information about it anymore. I feel like the American Dental Association killed it, because it was a job killer. Some of the best jobs in the country, I might add.
I think the notion that technological advancements have a negative effect on net jobs is yet another logical fallacy. This argument has been made all throughout history and been proven false, but has never died. Why should goods be carried from New York to London by cargo ship, when a much greater number of men could be employed transporting it by row-boat? The fallacy lies in simply focusing on the workers within whatever industry that machinery/technology is introduced. You ignore the people who are employed designing and building the new machines. Furthermore you are neglecting to take into account the benefit to COGS that this technology may produce, which in most instances gets transferred to the consumer through lower prices, for he now has more money to spend elsewhere.
This isn't true in the case of the dentist. Lots of good jobs will be lost if tooth decay is a thing of the past. In fact, they're now talking about having the mouthwash be administered by dentists! lol
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But if we suppose that the business owner who employs the new machines/technology choses not to lower his price, and instead collects all the profits for himself, he will still pay it back in a number of ways. He will either use this money to expand his business and buy more machines, invest the money in other industries, or increase his own personal consumption. In any event, for every dollar he has saved directly from laying off his former employees, he pays out indirectly to the wages of the machine/technology producers, the workers of another capital industry, or to finance a new home, car, or other luxury. He indirectly gives as many jobs as he has destroyed directly. The next thing you know, his competitors are buying the new machines/technology as well, employing more people in the nascent machine industry. The competition drives prices down and inevitably the purchasing power gets passed on to the consumers. All other industries are now capable of employing more people than they were capable of previously, because they now have a greater demand for their products.
So you're a proponent of trickle-down economics? I hadn't realized.
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So while yes, technology can have devastating effects on specific industries, it has no such effect on net-jobs as a whole.
I think the FDA is highly compromised as well, and that story does not surprise me in the least bit. Your example serves as a good way to illustrate my sentiments on the technology issue. Perhaps they were protecting the dental industry as you have noted above. And perhaps the mouthwash would have been devastating to this specific industry. But once again, the indirect benefits to the consumers of the economy, who would then able to save thousands in dental bills, would have offset this loss.
I agree that increased consumer spending capacity would make up for the difference, generally speaking. I don't think that the money from this increased consumer spending will necessarily create jobs equivalent to the dental industry. It might create a large quantity of low paying service and manufacturing jobs in their place.
It really is a possibility that the need to work could be eliminated through technological advancement. Do you disagree with that notion? In the process, jobs will gradually be lost, and people will suffer, as all of the wealth and power trickles to the top rung of society.
I am not against technological advancement, mind you. I believe many advancements have been stifled in aims of maintaining the status quo. This may even be part of the reason hemp is illegal.
I believe that a Socialist/Capitalist hybrid is in order, honestly. Capitalism has a tendency to concentrate wealth and power when left unchecked. This is in it's very nature. You don't need a PhD to see that Capitalism favors the Capitalist exponentially, and corporations are the Capitalists that never die.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (11/05/15 06:10 PM)
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22482564 - 11/05/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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amp244 said: As a matter of fact it could be argued that production efficiencies will diminish due to unskilled labor entering the workforce.
I don't follow this argument at all. Why would reducing people's work week from 40 hours to a lower number (say 30 hours) increase the amount of unskilled labor??? You'd still need both skilled and unskilled labor, just less of each.
The same amount of work would need to be done. So by reducing the number of hours each worker can put in each week, you would need to hire more people to satisfy the labor needs. In many cases you would need to hire people who would need to be trained and would not have experience in that particular field, so in the short term, efficiencies would be hindered until the new labor could learn the ropes, so to speak. You would be spreading work that was previously satisfied by trained and skilled laborers, amongst more people. Some of which are not as efficient as the original laborers.
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amp244 said: The only thing that will happen is that the workers previously employed will be subsidizing the newly employed workers, and I don't like socialism.
I don't get it again. Are you saying you'd rather have 25% of the existing workforce be unemployed rather than having the existing workforce only working 75% of their current hours? Because... socialism?
What I am saying is that when you lower the 40 hour work week to say, 30 hours, without reducing the amount of work to be done, you are taking 1/4 of the existing employee's pay check to pay for the new hires. In essence, the previously employed man is subsidizing the new hire. He can only work 30 hours now, therefore his income has been reduced to allow for the existence of the other man's paycheck.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22482651 - 11/05/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think you misunderstood the point I was making. I said that IF automation ever got to the point where there simply wasn't enough work left for people to do anymore, then we should reduce the work week.
All of your responses above don't seem to align with that:
"The same amount of work would need to be done." "when you lower the 40 hour work week to say, 30 hours, without reducing the amount of work to be done..."
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22482845 - 11/05/15 08:06 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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If it were to happen, then I suppose we would be in a pretty dire position. Hopefully by then, we will have discovered how to harness the ambient energy of the magnetic fields and have free energy. Then maybe we could just let robots do all of our work and focus on space exploration.
I think we are in agreeance in that its not happening anytime soon.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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