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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22464841 - 11/01/15 10:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said: So do you think that the Federal Reserve act was a way to break away from banker control of the government exercised through the issuance of credit? Yes or no question.
Absolutely!
If Government wanted to borrow money before the Fed, say to help a weak economy, or to wage a war, it had to borrow at market rates. If it needed a lot of money, it had to sell a lot of bonds, and interest rates had to be high enough to sell it all to the market, hurting the taxpayer.
By creating its own bank that serves the US Government, Government effectively gave itself the ability to fund itself as needed, and to set its own interest rates. It has far more freedom to borrow when times are tough (or when times aren't so tough, as we've seen since Reagan). The Fed can even create money out of thin air to buy Government bonds when Government really needs money (this also creates a lot of demand for such bonds, reducing interest rates to the taxpayer). Obviously, to prevent hyperinflation, the Fed will sell the bonds and retire that money from the system, or it can increase inflation to slow inflation.
So again, "yes"!
And that's just the benefit of obtaining credit. It also helped stabilize the boom bust cycles that were so damaging to the US economy, and stabilized interest rates so people could better plan for their future.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (11/02/15 12:22 AM)
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22465322 - 11/02/15 04:16 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Absolutely!
If Government wanted to borrow money before the Fed, say to help a weak economy, or to wage a war, it had to borrow at market rates. If it needed a lot of money, it had to sell a lot of bonds, and interest rates had to be high enough to sell it all to the market, hurting the taxpayer.
By creating its own bank that serves the US Government, Government effectively gave itself the ability to fund itself as needed, and to set its own interest rates. It has far more freedom to borrow when times are tough (or when times aren't so tough, as we've seen since Reagan). The Fed can even create money out of thin air to buy Government bonds when Government really needs money (this also creates a lot of demand for such bonds, reducing interest rates to the taxpayer). Obviously, to prevent hyperinflation, the Fed will sell the bonds and retire that money from the system, or it can increase inflation to slow inflation.
So again, "yes"!
And that's just the benefit of obtaining credit. It also helped stabilize the boom bust cycles that were so damaging to the US economy, and stabilized interest rates so people could better plan for their future.
F - I tend to agree with you, although I do think more effective transparency could be introduced to the FED as well. There is no easy alternative to a Central Bank that eliminates more volatile movement of interest rates.
Fractional Reserve Banking is really how all that money gets into the economy and this is the mechanism by which most "money out of thin air" is truly created. If we want to "crack down" on the banking industry, it is through firmer control of fractional reserve banking we can do it. Given how much money is needed now to run our capital markets/economy, I don't really know how you'd do that without causing huge asset losses along the way. It's easy to say ... "hey, we need to man up and take some pain" as a sort of tough love stage, but the reality of the political cycle makes this very difficult to do in a decisive deliberative way. Recessions need to come as "surprises" or "shocks" now and don't see that changing much anytime soon.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22465899 - 11/02/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
amp244 said: So do you think that the Federal Reserve act was a way to break away from banker control of the government exercised through the issuance of credit? Yes or no question.
Absolutely!
If Government wanted to borrow money before the Fed, say to help a weak economy, or to wage a war, it had to borrow at market rates. If it needed a lot of money, it had to sell a lot of bonds, and interest rates had to be high enough to sell it all to the market, hurting the taxpayer.
By creating its own bank that serves the US Government, Government effectively gave itself the ability to fund itself as needed, and to set its own interest rates. It has far more freedom to borrow when times are tough (or when times aren't so tough, as we've seen since Reagan). The Fed can even create money out of thin air to buy Government bonds when Government really needs money (this also creates a lot of demand for such bonds, reducing interest rates to the taxpayer). Obviously, to prevent hyperinflation, the Fed will sell the bonds and retire that money from the system, or it can increase inflation to slow inflation.
"The Fed can create money out of thin air to buy Government bonds when Government really needs money"
Yes, and it's all counterfeiting, why do you think it's so wonderful?
"the Fed will sell the bonds"
When? They don't even talk about that possibility anymore.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22466421 - 11/02/15 12:05 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: Fractional Reserve Banking is really how all that money gets into the economy and this is the mechanism by which most "money out of thin air" is truly created. If we want to "crack down" on the banking industry, it is through firmer control of fractional reserve banking we can do it.
No, that's not correct. Let me explain.
Fractional reserve banking allows money to be created out of thin air through the process of loaning out money that doesn't exist, but surprisingly few people realize that when that money is paid back, it is taken right back out of existence. The fractional reserve system does NOT increase the overall money supply (except temporarily).
The purpose of the fractional reserve system is to make it a lot easier for banks to give loans to both businesses and individuals, and that's a good thing.
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: Recessions need to come as "surprises" or "shocks" now and don't see that changing much anytime soon.
Recessions dont' "need" to come at all anymore; that's why the Fed was created. The Fed's job is to keep the economy stable by preventing both booms and busts.
The last economic crisis was the result of reckless lending by banks to people that couldn't afford it, and the corresponding derivatives that were created to insure such loans. Congress should never have allowed the banks resell their loans, and/or the ratings agencies should never have rated the repackaged mortgages as "good". That's what led the crisis, but fortunately it didn't become a full blown depression because the Fed pumped trillions into the economy to prevent that.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: qman]
#22466435 - 11/02/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The Fed can create money out of thin air to buy Government bonds when Government really needs money
Yes, and it's all counterfeiting, why do you think it's so wonderful?
It's good because it gives the Government the freedom to have extra money in times of need. The Fed only uses quantitative easing in times of need. Again, it's the Fed's job to ensure we never have hyperinflation, and they've been successful at preventing it.
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: the Fed will sell the bonds
When? They don't even talk about that possibility anymore.
When inflation starts to rise and they need to pull money back out of the economy.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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qman
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22466443 - 11/02/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: Fractional Reserve Banking is really how all that money gets into the economy and this is the mechanism by which most "money out of thin air" is truly created. If we want to "crack down" on the banking industry, it is through firmer control of fractional reserve banking we can do it.
No, that's not correct. Let me explain.
Fractional reserve banking allows money to be created out of thin air through the process of loaning out money that doesn't exist, but surprisingly few people realize that when that money is paid back, it is taken right back out of existence. The fractional reserve system does NOT increase the overall money supply (except temporarily).
The purpose of the fractional reserve system is to make it a lot easier for banks to give loans to both businesses and individuals, and that's a good thing.
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: Recessions need to come as "surprises" or "shocks" now and don't see that changing much anytime soon.
Recessions dont' "need" to come at all anymore; that's why the Fed was created. The Fed's job is to keep the economy stable by preventing both booms and busts.
The last economic crisis was the result of reckless lending by banks to people that couldn't afford it, and the corresponding derivatives that were created to insure such loans. Congress should never have allowed the banks resell their loans, and/or the ratings agencies should never have rated the repackaged mortgages as "good". That's what led the crisis, but fortunately it didn't become a full blown depression because the Fed pumped trillions into the economy to prevent that.
"Fed pumped trillions into the economy"
No they didn't, they pumped trillions into the banks, big difference.
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qman
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22466446 - 11/02/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The Fed can create money out of thin air to buy Government bonds when Government really needs money
Yes, and it's all counterfeiting, why do you think it's so wonderful?
It's good because it gives the Government the freedom to have extra money in times of need. The Fed only uses quantitative easing in times of need. Again, it's the Fed's job to ensure we never have hyperinflation, and they've been successful at preventing it.
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: the Fed will sell the bonds
When? They don't even talk about that possibility anymore.
When inflation starts to rise and they need to pull money back out of the economy.
So we won't see it in our lifetimes.
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amp244
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Registered: 08/05/08
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22466459 - 11/02/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said:
I think this is it. The one very inconvenient fact with the entire new world order argument that makes it all fall apart is the Presidency of GHWB. If ever there was a one world order president to usher it all in, surely it was GHWB. A Bush, direct ties to Nazis and banks that funded them, head of the CIA at the height of the cold war AND UFO controversy, VP for 8 years and then he has a very ordinary presidency. No real major legislation passed ... no big economic changes. Loses re-election and becomes an average one termer. He was there man, if there was such a plan and nothing happened.
He signed Executive Order 12803 Infrastructure Privatization.
This allows billionaires to buy America's infrastructure.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: qman]
#22466488 - 11/02/15 12:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Fed pumped trillions into the economy
No they didn't, they pumped trillions into the banks, big difference.
The money "given" to the banks wasn't a gift. The Fed purchased bonds and securities from the banks taking it off their balance sheets and replacing it with cash making it easier for the banks to begin loaning money again.
Edit: Granted, some of the assets the Fed purchased from the banks were toxic assets. The Fed had to save "too big to fail" banks in order to prevent a much greater crisis.
The lesson is that we HAVE to break up 'too big to fail' banks and corporations.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (11/02/15 12:31 PM)
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qman
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22466512 - 11/02/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Fed pumped trillions into the economy
No they didn't, they pumped trillions into the banks, big difference.
The money "given" to the banks wasn't a gift. The Fed purchased bonds and securities from the banks taking it off their balance sheets and replacing it with cash making it easier for the banks to begin loaning money again.
And they never extended the credit into the general economy, but instead pumped it into Wall Street, thanks Mr. Fed!!
We must remember that it took over 20 years before banks extended credit after the Great Depression, we are only 7 years into it today.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: qman]
#22466518 - 11/02/15 12:34 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm not sure why you think banks aren't extending credit. I got a new home loan a few years ago, and corporations are borrowing again.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22466532 - 11/02/15 12:39 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: surprisingly few people realize that when that money is paid back, it is taken right back out of existence. The fractional reserve system does NOT increase the overall money supply (except temporarily).
One of many such articles:
Why Money Disappears When Loans Are Repaid
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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qman
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22466537 - 11/02/15 12:40 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I'm not sure why you think banks aren't extending credit. I got a new home loan a few years ago, and corporations are borrowing again. 
How are small business loans doing? Corporations are borrowing to do what? It's certainly not for cap ex, it's to buy back their own shares of stock, how wonderful!!
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22466556 - 11/02/15 12:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said:
He signed Executive Order 12803 Infrastructure Privatization.
This allows billionaires to buy America's infrastructure.
Would you agree, though, that if ever there was a President to usher in the NWO, it was GHWB and his presidency was pretty inimpressive and "they" couldn't get him re-elected.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: qman]
#22466565 - 11/02/15 12:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I'm not sure why you think banks aren't extending credit. I got a new home loan a few years ago, and corporations are borrowing again. 
How are small business loans doing? Corporations are borrowing to do what? It's certainly not for cap ex, it's to buy back their own shares of stock, how wonderful!!
^^^^^^^^^ This.
But, the interest rate lock down did help quite a few people avoid foreclosure. All in all, though, I think QE has been a pretty solid failure.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: qman]
#22466586 - 11/02/15 12:56 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's quite the exaggeration. I can tell you my own company is borrowing through the roof right now for cap ex.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22466597 - 11/02/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: But, the interest rate lock down did help quite a few people avoid foreclosure. All in all, though, I think QE has been a pretty solid failure.
You seriously don't think a few extra trillion dollars helped the economy? You don't think businesses are doing surprisingly well right now?
I'll certainly agree Main St isn't doing as good as Wall St, but that's not because the economy is awful, it's because Congress isn't helping Main St.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22466654 - 11/02/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: But, the interest rate lock down did help quite a few people avoid foreclosure. All in all, though, I think QE has been a pretty solid failure.
You seriously don't think a few extra trillion dollars helped the economy? You don't think businesses are doing surprisingly well right now?
I'll certainly agree Main St isn't doing as good as Wall St, but that's not because the economy is awful, it's because Congress isn't helping Main St.
True. All of the growth is rising to the top. It doesn't mean there's no growth.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22466674 - 11/02/15 01:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You seriously don't think a few extra trillion dollars helped the economy? You don't think businesses are doing surprisingly well right now?
I'll certainly agree Main St isn't doing as good as Wall St, but that's not because the economy is awful, it's because Congress isn't helping Main St.
It helped, for sure. How much is really hard to say. It absolutely crushed savers that rely on interest rate based dividend income, that's for sure. Double edged sword with interest rates.
I think the big fear, however, was massive loss of real estate values leading to increasing foreclosures and the domino effect of that.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22466690 - 11/02/15 01:39 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You seriously don't think a few extra trillion dollars helped the economy? You don't think businesses are doing surprisingly well right now?
I'll certainly agree Main St isn't doing as good as Wall St, but that's not because the economy is awful, it's because Congress isn't helping Main St.
It helped, for sure. How much is really hard to say. It absolutely crushed savers that rely on interest rate based dividend income, that's for sure. Double edged sword with interest rates.
Exactly this^^^ For a party that always yaps about helping the middle class, they sure have been fucking us over with these interest rates. I would suggest that's part of the plan though, it's common knowledge the democrat party needs a permanent underclass to stay in power...
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