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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22438421 - 10/27/15 12:08 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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amp244 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Why don't YOU tell us what you found in any of the videos showing the Fed is bad?
Go back and watch the video again. He is making the point that she, as the inspector general, doesn't know a god damn thing that goes on in the fed. I was making the point that your so called oversight amounts to absolutely nothing when it comes to an informed congress. The Fed's balance sheet grew by over $1 trillion, and 8 months later, she can't tell the congress anything specific about it.
That's not really honest. She didn't know the answer to a specific question, and with hindsight it makes sense why she seemed a little perplexed:
Alan - Are you telling me that nobody at the Federal Reserve is keeping track on a regular basis of the losses that it incurs on what is now a $2 trillion portfolio? Elizabeth - I don't know if... you're telling me that there's losses... I'm just saying that we're not... until we actually look at the program and have the information, we're not in a position to say whether there are losses or to respond in any other way to that particular question"
It turns out the Fed didn't incur any losses, so the question was a bit (mis)leading.
Again, my question to you is "what exactly did the Fed do wrong?"
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amp244 said: Im getting quite tired of this back and fourth with you falcon. Why don't you ask Big Bad Wolf, or some of the other intelligent people in this thread, what they find disheartening about the videos. Grayson is making the point that nobody knows, not even the Inspector General, what is going on at the Fed.
Again, I think you're misrepresenting the video. It shows what the inspector general did NOT know, not what she DID know. But I agree, let's ask smarter people, like Wooof and Orca, if I'm out of line.
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amp244 said: If you are cool with private bankers acting in secret and extending over $1 trillion in credit to God knows who, then I suppose you are a lost cause.
Are you talking about the private banks that sold the securities to the Fed, or about the Fed? I'm not ok with the Fed acting in total secret, but the private banks (whom I dislike) can do what they want with the money they got from selling securities to the Fed.
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amp244 said: I made an assertion that the Fed was owned and operated by private bankers, I provided a link to the Fed website saying exactly that. You countered with the same link, that says that there is an oversight board approved by congress, and according to you, this negates the fact that it is owned and operated by private bankers. I countered with multiple videos showing how completely inept and ineffectual this oversight board is. Do I really need to break it down to this extent for you? I feel like you are arguing for the sake of arguing and don't understand exactly what you are arguing about.
Not being able to answer the question about an investigation that was in progress is not the same as not knowing anything. I think you're being disingenuous. 
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amp244 said: Falcon we've been over this before. The overwhelming majority of price fluctuations regarding gold are fluctuations in the value of the dollar, not the value of gold. You are confusing the word "price" with the word "value". I have showed you, though my efforts proved futile, that the VALUE of gold is much more stable than the VALUE of the dollar.
You've showed me that value of gold against oil is more stable than the value of the dollar against oil, and I didn't dispute that because you backed it up. But you're the one who fails to understand that if the PRICE of food is more stable against the dollar than it is against gold, then the VALUE of the dollar is also more stable relative to food. And the PRICE of food has been more stable relative to the dollar than to gold.
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amp244 said: I don't want to be mean bro, but I think a lot of these concepts are going over your head.
Once again, here's where we should ask the smarter people.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22439121 - 10/27/15 07:09 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
Let's not forget the tarrif free trade deals. Lets not forget the TPP; literally written by banks and wall street interests.
Don't forget this was implemented by libs, you know, the people you seem to think are infallible
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: hostileuniverse] 1
#22439162 - 10/27/15 07:40 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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hostileuniverse said:
Don't forget this was implemented by libs, you know, the people you seem to think are infallible
What is with your odd obsession of pinning every problem on democrats?
Bad trade deals have been pushed with AT LEAST as much enthusiasm by Republicans as Democrats. Gingrich was a NAFTA CHEERLEADER ...
The most liberal Democrats have been AGAINST every trade deal ever done. It's the moderate democrats that vote for trade deals. Look at voting history in Congress on all the trade deals and I think the evidence is quite clear that Republicans are far more enthusiastic about them than Democrats.
Your hardon for democrats is weird, bud.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22439176 - 10/27/15 07:47 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
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hostileuniverse said:
Don't forget this was implemented by libs, you know, the people you seem to think are infallible
What is with your odd obsession of pinning every problem on democrats?
Bad trade deals have been pushed with AT LEAST as much enthusiasm by Republicans as Democrats. Gingrich was a NAFTA CHEERLEADER ...
The most liberal Democrats have been AGAINST every trade deal ever done. It's the moderate democrats that vote for trade deals. Look at voting history in Congress on all the trade deals and I think the evidence is quite clear that Republicans are far more enthusiastic about them than Democrats.
Your hardon for democrats is weird, bud.
The fact you think about me having a hardon is wierd
All these horrible trade deals are instituted by democrats, how you pin them on the GOP is beyond me, maybe you're just a partisan, maybe you're just in denial
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22439212 - 10/27/15 08:08 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
All these horrible trade deals are instituted by democrats, how you pin them on the GOP is beyond me, maybe you're just a partisan, maybe you're just in denial
I'm not pinning them on anyone ... I'm very clear that both parties have pushed bad trade deals on America ... BOTH Parties. Blaming them on Democrats is idiotic, given they tend to vote against them more than Republicans do, based on voting records in Congress.
If there's one thing both parties have screwed America with, it's trade policy.
You have a very strange obsession with contorting an argument to blame virtually every problem on democrats.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22439243 - 10/27/15 08:29 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: ... I'm very clear that both parties have pushed bad trade deals on America ... BOTH Parties. Blaming them on Democrats is idiotic, given they tend to vote against them more than Republicans do, based on voting records in Congress.
Exactly.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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qman
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22439280 - 10/27/15 08:44 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said:
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amp244 said:
You should all do yourselves a favor and read this essay by Alan Greenspan written way back in 1966 arguing a link between a gold standard and economic freedom. I think this will do a lot to help you all truly understand the argument for a gold standard.
http://www.321gold.com/fed/greenspan/1966.html
That ship sailed a long time ago ... we are not going to any gold standard now or in the future. That's not to say that a competing commodities backed currency won't be introduced, because it might ...
The world was a different place in 1966 ... no personal computers ... no online trading ... Currency trading was nothing like it is today ... The global trade situation had hardly gotten started in terms of what we have today.
We live in an era of options ... currencies, stocks, bonds, derivatives, commodities, PM's and internet based currencies ... Gold's importance has gone down, now up.
Gold's importance has stayed the same, no less, no more.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22439286 - 10/27/15 08:47 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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>I feel like you are arguing for the sake of arguing and don't understand exactly what you are arguing about.
I get that same impression, when fal knows he is wrong he never admits it he tries to change the subject and bring in irrelevant junk. He is slipperier than a bag of greased up eels but will not debate honestly. He probably thinks he is honest but constantly goes off on tangents and brings in red herrings.
If the director of the fed can't answer basic questions then there is no real oversight. Why are the politicians so against auditing the fed? what are they afraid we will find?
Also, gold was trading at around 300 in 2000, now over 1100. That is more than a 366% increase in 15 years. How has the value of the dollar been? Not so good, it buys less now than in 2000
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22439293 - 10/27/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Let's not forget the tarrif free trade deals. Lets not forget the TPP; literally written by banks and wall street interests.
Don't forget this was implemented by libs, you know, the people you seem to think are infallible
You're wasting your breath harping on the "both sides are bad" line.
We know.
--------------------
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Stonehenge]
#22439305 - 10/27/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Also, gold was trading at around 300 in 2000, now over 1100. That is more than a 366% increase in 15 years. How has the value of the dollar been? Not so good, it buys less now than in 2000
I'll take the performance of stocks over the last 75 years over PM's. Much more fun to invest in ... more challenging in terms of researching companies ...
As Buffett has said ... "we use near slave labor to dig up shiny rocks from the ground, melt them into bars, the stick them back into the ground again (in vaults) and guard them ... "
No dividend, not profits, no earnings ... just speculation, hoarding and massive manipulation. Gold is really, at this point, a fringe currency. No doubt money will be made and lost on it and I own a pound of coins I keep hidden away just in case ... but that's about it.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Stonehenge]
#22439386 - 10/27/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: I get that same impression, when fal knows he is wrong he never admits it he tries to change the subject and bring in irrelevant junk. He is slipperier than a bag of greased up eels but will not debate honestly. He probably thinks he is honest but constantly goes off on tangents and brings in red herrings.
I wished you would be specific so I knew what you're talking about, but you just repeat the same thing over and over without supporting it.
Quote:
Stonehenge said: If the director of the fed can't answer basic questions then there is no real oversight.
I already addressed that above; the information wasn't available at the time (but it is now). Either discuss what I say, or stop asking the same question.
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Stonehenge said: Why are the politicians so against auditing the fed? what are they afraid we will find?
It's because once politicians learn more about it, they realize there's no real issue. No one here has yet answered my question about what the Fed did wrong during the crisis.
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Also, gold was trading at around 300 in 2000, now over 1100. That is more than a 366% increase in 15 years. How has the value of the dollar been? Not so good, it buys less now than in 2000
Didn't you just accuse me of cherry picking data? Anyone can pick a date that works well or one that that doesn't work well.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Stonehenge]
#22439407 - 10/27/15 09:29 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
If the director of the fed can't answer basic questions then there is no real oversight. Why are the politicians so against auditing the fed? what are they afraid we will find?
I would guess the main reason the FED keeps it's books closed to Congress is because of the exposure it would cause for publicly traded banks ... Some are probably much more fragile than the public is aware and the FED protects them somewhat. By making Congress aware of this, it creates all kinds of leaks for predatory inside trading.
I see all kinds of problems with the FED, but the mere thought of having Congress in charge of the nation's money supply when they can't even get a budget done or agree on debt ceiling changes to pay the bills ...
They could use the money supply to punish the other party in power ... No Thanks!
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stonehenge
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22439426 - 10/27/15 09:35 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I lol'ed at this one. Classic fal
>>Stonehenge said: Why are the politicians so against auditing the fed? what are they afraid we will find?
>It's because once politicians learn more about it, they realize there's no real issue
If that was true, there would be no problem auditing it. Politicians don't know whats going on, maybe the billionaires who pull the strings of the politicians know but its all a big secret. A can of worms perhaps.
>Didn't you just accuse me of cherry picking data? Anyone can pick a date that works well or one that that doesn't work well.
You did cherry pick shamelessly using the last 2 years. Anyway, we were talking about the future and you changed the subject again. You said you wanted examples, there is one for you. But it will go right over your head or else you will refuse to acknowledge anything. As usual.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Stonehenge]
#22439445 - 10/27/15 09:39 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said:
If that was true, there would be no problem auditing it. Politicians don't know whats going on, maybe the billionaires who pull the strings of the politicians know but its all a big secret. A can of worms perhaps.
Most elected politicians don't have frigging clue about banking, lending, etc.
The people on the key banking committees generally do and they, along with Treasury, know a lot about the FED. The question is do we want to make all that data public?
I think the FED realizes there is a lot of risk in doing that. Not to them, but to large financial institutions and their shareholders.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stonehenge
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22439482 - 10/27/15 09:51 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hell yes we should make the data public. We could compromise on a few things that are not important to the big picture and which might be sensitive. One thing we do know is that when politicians act in secret, they are up to no good.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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qman
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22439516 - 10/27/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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"no one here has yet answered my question what the Fed did wrong during the crisis."
I did.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Stonehenge]
#22439522 - 10/27/15 10:06 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Hell yes we should make the data public. We could compromise on a few things that are not important to the big picture and which might be sensitive. One thing we do know is that when politicians act in secret, they are up to no good.
When congress regulated the money supply, which they did for many years between 1780-1913, it did not go well. There are problems with a central bank, but the problems with elected officials directly deciding on the money supply are much greater which is why so few countries even consider it.
The FED discloses a lot of information to the Treasury and the banking committees. If you want full and complete access to their balance sheet, that's not going to happen. That's information we probably don't want to get out to other central banks we compete with ...
Monetary policy and currency valuations are, to some extent, national defense issues.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22439577 - 10/27/15 10:19 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: qman]
#22439584 - 10/27/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: no one here has yet answered my question what the Fed did wrong during the crisis.
I did.
My apologies. What did you say the Fed did wrong?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22439585 - 10/27/15 10:21 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Also, gold was trading at around 300 in 2000, now over 1100. That is more than a 366% increase in 15 years. How has the value of the dollar been? Not so good, it buys less now than in 2000
I'll take the performance of stocks over the last 75 years over PM's. Much more fun to invest in ... more challenging in terms of researching companies ...
As Buffett has said ... "we use near slave labor to dig up shiny rocks from the ground, melt them into bars, the stick them back into the ground again (in vaults) and guard them ... "
No dividend, not profits, no earnings ... just speculation, hoarding and massive manipulation. Gold is really, at this point, a fringe currency. No doubt money will be made and lost on it and I own a pound of coins I keep hidden away just in case ... but that's about it.
Gold is not a currency anymore, and even on the most recent "gold-standards" it was held in reserves and the bank notes were tied to it indirectly. This is what kept the currency stable, the fact that you could take your bills to the bank and receive silver/gold for them. If other countries had the same system, then trade between nations was seamless.
Now, it is merely an investment instrument, but nobody invests in gold for a return. They invest in it as a store of wealth. If you want a return, hit the stock and bond markets. Stocks are much more intricate and in some instances, pay dividends, as you have noted. There are also some tax advantages of stocks over gold. But the advantage gold has over stocks is its value stability. No matter what happens to the dollar, to the stock market, or to the bond market, gold will always have value. So long as there is trade within an economy, gold will have value.
The bank of England knows this...
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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