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Trumps Bone Spurs Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 13,347 Last seen: 1 hour, 49 minutes |
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Quote: The funny thing about starfire's 'filter process' is that the money lost in the 'government filter' is 'lost' paying government employees lmao! We've spent decades trying out Republican horse shit policy, and it has been a disaster. Its time to do what has worked in the past, and give up on this trickle down horse shit. We Americans are not beggers pleading with companies to stay here, and desperate to please them. That's not why they do business here. -------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/26/15 12:26 AM)
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Sporocarp Stretching Registered: 08/05/08 Posts: 1,336 |
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Quote: Do you contend that these people are simply hoarding large lumps of cash and bathing in it? Perhaps they are living lavish and luxurious lifestyles but that money spent is still employing people, nobody just hoards their money. I think the phrase "money hoarder" is an oxymoron. If you hoard your money, it inflates away in a fractional reserve fiat system. People with excess money invest it into the economy, where it is funneled to the people who need it for capital expenditure. This is done through loans/bonds, stock investment, or business ventures. Such is the point of bond and stock markets. It brings lenders and borrowers together. Those who need money for capital investment have a market in which they can obtain this money from those who have stagnant cash and want to make a return. The private sector will always facilitate this exchange more efficiently than the government, for the sole reason that the private sector investors are using THEIR money, whereas the government is using money either printed out of thin air, or raised through taxes from the private sector. When the government comes in and extends credit in places that the private sector would not, it is engaging in risky business that was turned down by those being prudent with their own money. Now I do sympathize with the sentiment that Mega banks are simply not making loans to small borrowers with profit margins so low given current interest rates. This is a problem and is a harsh reality of Keynesian economics. Sanders is critical of these big banks and his concerns are shared by me. I think that some of these "Too Big to Fail" banks need to be broken up. Anti-trust laws, anti monopoly laws, and propositions such as the Paul Volker rule must be tailored to address such issues. -------------------- "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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Trumps Bone Spurs Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 13,347 Last seen: 1 hour, 49 minutes |
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Trickle down doesn't work, bruh.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
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Stranger Registered: 04/22/15 Posts: 277 Loc: EuroZone Victim Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Wall Street doesn't care who wins the election, they pull the strings of whoever ends up in office. The courts assured that last year by stating that politicians have NO Obligation to stand by the electoral promises, in other words what they promise to do if elected! The system has cleared itself of all responsibility and anyone who doesn't realize not one promise Obama made was actually done, he actually did the opposite which is worse than doing nothing! To blame an elected official or expect him/her to DO something for the PEOPLE is a joke, the entire system is for SHOW for the people (real Reality TV) The ones running the country have been in the elected peoples circle for the past 50 yrs, the same people regardless of which party you elect(they own them both) To Blame the president for anything is the same as blaming RONALD MCDONALD for a bad hamburger, its F-cking pointless, he's only the face on the package to help sell it! He has no real say or power... They will use his legal knowledge to work around the constitution just like they used Bush's stupidity to create the 9/11 scandal and go to war ... for 14 years and counting.. The Health ins scam was to take from the tax payers and give to the 1%. the wars (spreading american democracy)is to take from the tax payers and give to the 1% (artillery, construction, military costs blah blah)and the bonus is the things they steal from those countries and extort for years after to maintain the safety/freedom... Doesn't that sound familiar, the mafia would rob you then charge to protect you (extortion) from the thieves... Wall street is just the casino for the wealthy, except when they lose, we (tax payers) get the bill ... A vote for any of these puppets is basically supporting this corrupt criminal enterprise of epic proportions.. If any of the puppets had true intentions of standing up for THE PEOPLE they would free themselves from the two party system we have and go independent and I doubt that would matter because if they couldn't be bought/forced to do as told the NSA has the dirt on them, either financial/sexual or whatever, if all else fails they will JFK him!!! (J.F.Kennedy/Just F-cking Kill) same meaning.
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Sporocarp Stretching Registered: 08/05/08 Posts: 1,336 |
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Quote: I'm certainly not advocating tax breaks for wealthy people. Im also not advocating ridiculous tax increases that will not only drive money away, but serve as a disincentive for any foreign investment. The real problem here is government policy. The real problem is a terribly mismanaged fiat currency and fractional reserve banking. The government is responsible for the income disparity, things like obamacare and bailout packages accelerate such disparities by reallocating wealth away from the collective little man, and transferring it to the top tier. When the bailout plan was executed, loads of money was created out of nothing and given to failing banks and mortgage institutions. The money wasn't given to the homeowners, it was given to the Mega institutions that were too big to fail. When such an immense increase in the money supply takes place without a corresponding increase in wealth or any "real" value, inflation occurs. In the case of these sizable increases, the term hyper-inflation applies. So the same amount of wealth, yet more monetary units, which are given solely to giant banks, means that the wealth pie has been recut, and the little man has a smaller slice. Sure he didn't lose any money, but his money is worth less. He has less wealth. Same situation with the stimulus package and Quantitative Easing. Quantitative Easing is the single most devastating rip off of the American public ever conceived. The Fed announced that it would be buying Treasury bonds on the open market thereby loaning money to the U.S. government. They did this by extending credit to private banks (JP Morgan, Citi Group, Goldman, etc) at NEAR ZERO interest rates, so that they may in turn buy the Government bonds on the open market. The catch here is that the Treasury Bills carry around a 3% interest rate on them, which is paid to the private bank by the tax payer. The bank then turns around and pays the loan back to the Federal Reserve at a NEAR ZERO interest rate. These banks are getting money for practically free, and investing it into interest bearing government bonds assured by the taxpaying American. They are robbing you, me, and all the good people in this country, of our wealth. Not only from the interest on the treasury bills, but also through the mechanism of inflation that I described above. Wealth is being transferred from the American people, to the largest institutions in the world. The loans may temporarily bolster the economy and make things appear peachy on the surface, but the leach is steady sucking and getting fat. Call it the Devil's-cut. This is the problem! You are merely describing the symptoms of this deeply rooted problem, and not the problem itself. You are proposing a course of action that will treat these symptoms, but not the problem. Until the banking cartel is exposed and its schemes destroyed, you will not be able to stop the subservience that the system has created. Socialism and a Welfare state will only worsen these matters. A return to a national central bank and a gold standard are invaluable aspects of the necessary course of action that will restore true liberty and prosperity to the hard working people of this country. Until the Federal Reserve Act is repealed, nothing we propose will work. Not trickle down economics, not Keynesian economics, not socialism, and not capitalism. None of it will help this country if these bankers continue to leach its wealth. These Dem/Rep "Presidents" we have are pawns in the scheme. That's why they tell you they have the working man and the consumer in mind, yet try to fast track the TPP through congress. That's why they stand by idly while the federal reserve banking system robs the American people in broad daylight. They aren't working for us, they serve the banking elite. There is a reason Andrew Jackson fought so hard to defeat a private central banking system. There is a reason Lincoln described the bankers as a more dangerous foe than the confederacy during the civil war. These people were REAL Presidents, and they understood what was going on. Jackson survived assassination attempts and we know what happened to Lincoln, such is par for the course for those decrying the private central banking system throughout U.S. history. Our economy does not function as the capitalist system our founding fathers dedicated their lives to create should. These people understood who the real criminals were, and sought to protect the American people from them. Unfortunately the bankers never went away, and after the Federal Reserve act was passed in 1913, this country has been circling the drain slowly but surely. Now we have a situation where presidents are elected who's sole purpose is to trample the constitution and completely destroy what was a free country. It makes me sick. Im sorry for this incredible rant but I had to get it out of my system. I apologize for being so cynical when it comes to politics, but the majority of these people really don't give a shit about us and are actively taking part in destroying a country that has the potential to be the greatest, most beautiful, and free country the world has ever seen. -------------------- "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith Edited by amp244 (10/26/15 02:24 AM)
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Sporocarp Stretching Registered: 08/05/08 Posts: 1,336 |
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Quote: Preach it my friend. I 100% agree. Wholeheartedly. +5 for you. -------------------- "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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Stranger Registered: 04/22/15 Posts: 277 Loc: EuroZone Victim Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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A real issue that is not being addressed is the dramatic growth of Gov expense/reliance. We expanded gov at levels that became insane, if you take all Fed,State,County,City, courts,law enforcement(18,000 agencies alone)all the gov types of welfare/food stamps everyone/ANYONE relying on funds from the Govt to live/support there funding and look at whats left, its next to nothing, we have set ourselves up for utter failure by looking the other way for to long. The Gov is "ours" to protect us from "them" How come we allowed our Gov to become "them" They are supposed to fear the people(not re electing) Not make the people Fear them ! The same group creating this mess is the group profiting from it, from the war on drugs to every country that has been bombed (to bring them "our" Democracy) Which by the way we NO LONGER HAVE! Its all for the 1%, war on drugs feeds the prison industrial complex and big pharma, wall street ponzi scheme/casino is for the bankers Obamacare is for the ins/medical industry and the wars we are in going on 15 yrs straight feeds the whole machine to continue this global ponzi scheme because they cannot get enough from there own citizens to support its greed, so now the rest will slowly be exterminated like bugs (starved out over time, incarcerated,homeless and no health care) It has to be done this way because they can no longer support the people (to many that need) If the New Orleans Fiasco (letting them all die) didn't show the long term goal, nothing else will. If the same flooding happened in Beverly hills or Palm beach island or the Hamptons they wouldnt have lost a soul! BIG GOVT would have been right there
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: This may have been true 30-40 years ago ... but it isn't true now and YES, a small percentage of people are hoarding enormous sums of money that isn't getting into the real economy anymore. That money is, instead, often "invested" (if you can call it that) into highly leveraged schemes that create more "profit" out of debt via the magic of our financial system. That money is also converted into jobs OVERSEAS so it is in essence extracted from the US economy. Add to that the globalism that takes money from local communities to pay people all over the world and doesn't return much of it at all back to the local communities where it came from. The game, at the top, is how to convert all of this easily available debt into private profits. The "jobs" this creates are exactly the kind of jobs that are destroying our economy. The answer IS NOT more "government" as you put it ... it's more policy to get more Americans, the wealthiest Americans, investing in projects and companies that do business IN AMERICA. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 4 months, 22 days |
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Quote: Perhaps an example makes this easier to understand. Let's say I own a restaurant. What's better for my business, to live in a town of two super wealthy people where everyone else is too poor to go out, or to live in a town where no one is wealthy but everyone is middle class? Quote: Agreed, and KauaiOrca just did a nice job answering that. Quote: -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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From 7/14-7/15 S&P 500 companies have spent over 555 BILLION in stock repurchases instead of expanding and building their businesses here in the US. The bulk of that repurchasing is done with BORROWED money at extremely cheap rates. What does this do? It reduces the amount of shares of that stock in the market which has the impact of raising the share price and EPS ... which excites Wall Street.
Companies are not, by and large, expanding the way they used to and if they are, it is often through investments in other countries ... much of the money that they make goes into financial engineering and dividends that are often reinvested in buying more stock ... http://www.thestreet.com/story/1 This has been going on for several years. This is what happens when rates are so low that companies simply make money off of transactional schemes instead of truly investing in the growing their business here in America. Then, of course, we have the whole matter of derivatives ... 850 TRILLION of them floating around being converted into cash that is often hoarded away with the risk pushed to the taxpayer when it occasionally collapses. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Edward Lear Registered: 03/31/14 Posts: 1,888 |
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Quote: Nailed it. -------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 4 months, 22 days |
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Quote: That's not why the Fed extended credit to the banks - they did it so the banks had more money to loan to business. Whether the banks buy Government bonds, or other entities buy Government bonds, the taxpayer is on the hook for the interest just the same. Quote: The Fed targets an inflation rate of about a 3% rate per year; a fact well known by everyone. How much has inflation been lately? Quote: The alternative was a great depression. Far worse for the American people. Quote: The problem isn't the Federal Reserve. The problem is a congress who is bought and paid for by big business and big banks. If we elect the right people, money can be redirected back to the people, and not the corporations. What needs to be reversed is Citizens United. -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ QFT .... This is the problem. Corporations control our political process from start to finish ... They are writing policy, funding campaigns, employing the political class and brainwashing the public with corporate controlled media. As much as I'd like to believe this will change, it seems to be getting worse every year. If we get Hillary as our next President, it will get much worse. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Trumps Bone Spurs Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 13,347 Last seen: 1 hour, 49 minutes |
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Are you a Libertarian?
The Federal Reserve has actually served to balance the bipolar swings of capitalism. Before we had reserve banking the US had a monumental crash every 10-15 years. I agree on the bailouts. They should have bailed out the people, like they did during the great depression. We needed a new New Deal. We need a new Glass Steagal. If that money had been used to bail out the people, instead of the banks, we would have recovered spectacularly, but that would be SOCIALISM! The real solution, honestly, is to separate financial interests from political candidates. To stem legal bribery. That is the only way to get the ball rolling on any sort of solution. Otherwise the system will continue to be rigged by those who paid for it. -------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
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Alt Center Registered: 06/20/04 Posts: 14,850 Loc: S.E. |
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I keep hearing variations of the old liberal "soak the rich" scheme. As amp and others said, that will simply drive the money and jobs offshore. You people have this image of scrooge mcduck in a swimming pool of money and not willing to give a dime. Rich people have their money invested in business by and large. Even money in the bank gets recirculated in the form of loans.
Rich people are the goose laying the golden egg. Fal, you and the other extreme left wingers want to drive away the goose by confiscating all its gold. Rich people aren't stupid, if they see any profits made in usa get taxed at some ridiculous rate, they invest overseas and do not bring the money back. This is already happening and it will get worse if Bernie gets in. It will get much worse if the bitch gets in. -------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/
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Edward Lear Registered: 03/31/14 Posts: 1,888 |
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If they're laying the golden egg why is income inequality at an all time high? And why are socialist countries considered more 'business friendly'? Why are jobs already going overseas?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: LMAO ... the uber wealthy (We're talking billionaires, here) are the ones eating the eggs, for the most part ... It's our education system + innovative companies that create products with American employees + infrastructure + legal system that is the golden goose. The "eggs," more and more, are being hoarded away in accounts that don't add anything to the American economy and are being hatched overseas in the cheapest labor markets that offer near slave labor conditions for extreme profits. An increasing percentage of what you call "investing" is simply speculation, much of it extremely fast paced (HFT) that SCALPS money out of the real economy. You're describing American in the 50's - early 80's ... things have changed. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Edward Lear Registered: 03/31/14 Posts: 1,888 |
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Don't forget about security.
We have the largest military on the planet protecting those assets. Who pays for that? Oh right... -------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: One again, privatizing the profits and socializing the risks/costs. That's America today. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Sporocarp Stretching Registered: 08/05/08 Posts: 1,336 |
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Orca you make some good points about everything your saying, but you must realize this is what takes place when these Keynesian economics have been allowed to create such ridiculously huge asset bubbles and low interest rates. There is NO incentive to loan money, which serves as a perfect time for share repurchase. The policy is to blame, not the wealthy people reacting to the policy. We need to incentivize business growth.
BigBadWolf, I am not calling for no central bank, we need a lender of last resort. It just need not operate in complete secrecy and be owned, through stock ownership, by all of its PRIVATE member banks. These guys are setting the policy for themselves. This is a complete and utter conflict of interest! Secondly, what makes you think a national central bank could not do an adequate job? What makes you think that these private bankers are better suited to regulate the private banking industry? And to Falcon, I don't think you know very much about Quantitative Easing, which they have been "tapering" off of for some time now. Secondly the great depression happened just under 20 years after the Federal Reserve took over, so I don't understand your "the alternative is a great depression" statement. Thirdly, when you say that the target rate of inflation is 3%, you are speaking about inflation as measured by the CPI. Consumer prices are one aspect of the overall economy. All of this inflation that I am speaking of is creating massive asset bubbles that will pop. And when that happens, then you will see all the backed up inflation reflected in the CPI. Lastly, the Federal Reserve is run by the Mega Banks. To say that the problem is the mega institutions and not the Fed is contradictory. I'll source that one so I don't get called out. From the Federal Reserve's own webpage: http://www.federalreserve.gov/fa "The 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by the Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized similarly to private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year." Well look at that, they even get 6% dividends every year! I do also sympathize with many libertarian points of view, particularly on the economy. I think we need to return to a gold standard at some point. BBW, the economy is supposed to have bear and bull markets. There are supposed to be correction periods, these frequent and small downturns keep the gigantic ones from happening. With current economic policy, the day must be saved by printing more money, because the guys before fucked shit up so bad saving the day printing more money. If the bubble were to pop today all hell would break loose, so they print in an effort to create pseudo-demand. People fail to see that the long term effects of printing that money today will amplify the same problem and simply push it further down the road. You are trading future cataclysm for a little temporary relief. I take moral exception to this ideology. -------------------- "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith Edited by amp244 (10/26/15 11:04 AM)
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