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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22433127 - 10/25/15 06:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
I read something about Hillary not wanting to provide protection because she was trying to save face... somehow. Apparently she was very involved in Libya. I don't know all the details.
I have a hard time believing the Sec'y of State is really all that involved in military oriented defense decisions and logistics. What credentials, really, do people like Hillary, Kerry, or Condi Rice or Madelyn Albright have to make the kind of military/defense decisions needed in hostile environments? They probably get some big picture reports and might intervene when a budget issue is involved, but I've gotta believe that military experts handle the nitty gritty of what goes on in these kinds of locations.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: sweeper54] 1
#22433472 - 10/25/15 07:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Its no coincidence all of these countries who don't have central banks controlled by Europeans need to be liberated from their "vicious dictators", or stopped from producing their "weapons of mass destruction".
Gadhafi was pursuing a policy that would create a United Africa with a single currency backed by gold. He was going to be empowering his people, his country, and his continent, while threatening western hegemony. Gadhafi's plan would not accept the U.S dollar for oil, he would instead accept gold, cutting the U.S. dollar out completely. Next thing you know, there are "rebels" running through Libya with weapons sufficient enough to amount to a formidable opposition of Gadhafi's National Army. Of course the U.S. and NATO provided air support until Gadhafi was eliminated, because - of course - of the innocent civilians, as if they actually give a fuck about Libyan prosperity and liberty. So in the aftermath, the Libyan dinar is another fiat currency, and Libya still trades oil for U.S. dollars.
Same basic story with Iraq, Saddam stopped accepting U.S. dollars for oil. So some bs was made about weapons of mass destruction that intelligence knew didn't exist, and NATO bombed the fuck out of Bagdad and took over their country. Then a "democracy" was set up, and monetary policy conformed to that of the west. The offensive was called "operation Iraqi freedom", again as if they actually give a fuck about the Iraqi people.
I don't know why you people continue to argue in support of DEM/REPs. Both parties are highly compromised and pander to the Wall Street elite, regardless of what they say to the American public.
Quote:
sweeper54 said:
Said hello to Madam President.
This woman does not give a flying fuck about the American people. This woman will continue to do what Obama has done, telling the American people one thing, and then siding with wall street at every convenience. Dismantling the constitution, stripping you of your freedoms and lobbying for more military intervention across the world. It blows my mind how much support these snakes are capable of garnering. If there is one thing I admire about these "Presidents" as of late, its that they can sure spin shit anyway they choose and have people believe it.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22433502 - 10/25/15 07:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said: I don't know why you people continue to argue in support of DEM/REPs. Both parties are highly compromised and pander to the Wall Street elite, regardless of what they say to the American public.
A lot of us agree, and that's why some of us support Bernie Sanders. But he'll never get elected because Wall St won't let it happen.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22433543 - 10/25/15 07:57 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said: Its no coincidence all of these countries who don't have central banks controlled by Europeans need to be liberated from their "vicious dictators", or stopped from producing their "weapons of mass destruction".
Gadhafi was pursuing a policy that would create a United Africa with a single currency backed by gold. He was going to be empowering his people, his country, and his continent, while threatening western hegemony. Gadhafi's plan would not accept the U.S dollar for oil, he would instead accept gold, cutting the U.S. dollar out completely. Next thing you know, there are "rebels" running through Libya with weapons sufficient enough to amount to a formidable opposition of Gadhafi's National Army. Of course the U.S. and NATO provided air support until Gadhafi was eliminated, because - of course - of the innocent civilians, as if they actually give a fuck about Libyan prosperity and liberty. So in the aftermath, the Libyan dinar is another fiat currency, and Libya still trades oil for U.S. dollars.
Same basic story with Iraq, Saddam stopped accepting U.S. dollars for oil. So some bs was made about weapons of mass destruction that intelligence knew didn't exist, and NATO bombed the fuck out of Bagdad and took over their country. Then a "democracy" was set up, and monetary policy conformed to that of the west. The offensive was called "operation Iraqi freedom", again as if they actually give a fuck about the Iraqi people.
I don't know why you people continue to argue in support of DEM/REPs. Both parties are highly compromised and pander to the Wall Street elite, regardless of what they say to the American public.
Quote:
sweeper54 said:
Said hello to Madam President.
This woman does not give a flying fuck about the American people. This woman will continue to do what Obama has done, telling the American people one thing, and then siding with wall street at every convenience. Dismantling the constitution, stripping you of your freedoms and lobbying for more military intervention across the world. It blows my mind how much support these snakes are capable of garnering. If there is one thing I admire about these "Presidents" as of late, its that they can sure spin shit anyway they choose and have people believe it.
Best post of the day!
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22433572 - 10/25/15 08:05 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
amp244 said: I don't know why you people continue to argue in support of DEM/REPs. Both parties are highly compromised and pander to the Wall Street elite, regardless of what they say to the American public.
A lot of us agree, and that's why some of us support Bernie Sanders. But he'll never get elected because Wall St won't let it happen.
I'm not totally sold on Sanders either, especially after he let Hilary of the hook with his "damn emails" stunt. If he was really trying get the nomination, he would have just kept his mouth shut and let her take all of the negative publicity she could get. Instead he threw her a life saver and pretty much sealed her fate as the Dem nominee. Its hard for me to wrap my head around that one. Its like when Romney was going up against Obama and chose not to mention the "Fast and the Furious" scandal. He wasn't genuinely trying to win in my opinion. I get a similar feeling about Sanders after that stunt.
Either way I agree that Sanders will never get a Dem nomination with all his anti-wall street proclamations.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22433591 - 10/25/15 08:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said: I'm not totally sold on Sanders either, especially after he let Hilary of the hook with his "damn emails" stunt. If he was really trying get the nomination, he would have just kept his mouth shut and let her take all of the negative publicity she could get. Instead he threw her a life saver and pretty much sealed her fate as the Dem nominee.
Perhaps that was the outcome, but I don't think it was his intent. He got a lot of good publicity out of it, and I think that's what he was going for. But unfortunately, it helped Hilary too.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22433613 - 10/25/15 08:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
amp244 said: I'm not totally sold on Sanders either, especially after he let Hilary of the hook with his "damn emails" stunt. If he was really trying get the nomination, he would have just kept his mouth shut and let her take all of the negative publicity she could get. Instead he threw her a life saver and pretty much sealed her fate as the Dem nominee.
Perhaps that was the outcome, but I don't think it was his intent. He got a lot of good publicity out of it, and I think that's what he was going for. But unfortunately, it helped Hilary too.
Bernie wants to run a campaign about issues and integrity. The problem is America's memory only spans into last week, and Hillary's positions mimic Bernies juuust enough that she doesn't look like she's blatantly copying his agenda. Therefore, Bernie has to win the popularity contest, which he probably won't be able to do.
I was pissed when he let her off the hook. Bernie can't attack her, but he can sure as fuck let other people do it. Did you see when they asked Hillary if Bernie was tough enough on guns? She practically jumped off her podium with a quick and emphatic 'NO!', before she had even contemplated why he might be wrong, or soft. She knows she can't attack him unless she's given a question like that.
I hope Bernie learned from this. I hope the other candidates take as many cheap shots as they can next debate, and grill her on the emails. I hope they tell Bernie to sit the fuck down for that portion. There's a lot that needs to be discussed, and Bernie silenced that discussion. I was very disappointed.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/25/15 08:25 PM)
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22434021 - 10/25/15 10:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I also don't agree with Bernie's massive government spending and public sector growing. I think there is a logical fallacy imbedded within the idea that Keynesian economics and growing the public sector create jobs, production, economic growth etc. For every dollar that is spent on growing the public sector, a dollar will have to eventually be paid by the taxpayer, ie: the private sector. And if it will be funded by simply printing money and laying a massive debt burden on our children, then the taxation is effected through inflation. In either event, the private sector shrinks. Money is simply taken out of the countries right hand pocket and placed into its left hand pocket. For every public sector job created through government projects, or every increase in welfare entitlements, a job is lost in the private sector, and its purchasing power diminishes. There is no new value added anywhere in the equation.
I'm not very big on socialism and a ballooning welfare state. I think that it is merely a way to confiscate savings through inflation, as Alan Greenspan articulated so masterfully in 1966 in defense of a gold standard:
"The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.
This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." - Alan Greenspan, Gold and Economic Freedom 1966.
And lets be honest here, what we have is not exactly capitalism. What we have is a little capitalism, mixed in with a little socialism, and a heavy corporate influence (a corporatocracy if you will). This country is no longer a democratic republic, as the Federal Government has completely overstepped its intended boundaries, and I think Sanders socialistic approach will only worsen matters.
I do appreciate one aspect of Bernie and that is his honesty and unwavering ideology. He hasn't changed sides on any issues all throughout his political career, and that says a lot in todays politics. He also raises awareness to problems that are truly besetting our country. He and Ron Paul were championing the Audit the Fed bill through congress, and Bernie was on board at first. But he then watered down his version of the bill in the Senate which really rendered the bill useless. Regardless of the outcome, I do appreciate that he was willing to challenge the Federal Reserve and attempt to expose their clandestine dealings.
To me, Bernie is better than the rest, but still not what this country really needs. I do think he is authentic and is trying to help the common man, and this alone separates him from everyone else. He is a member of a rare breed of honest politicians. However, I still feel as if his massive government spending programs are destructive. But whoever gets the nod in Bernie's stead, will increase the size of the Federal Government anyways, so I suppose I might have to be willing to take the bad with the good.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
Edited by amp244 (10/25/15 11:07 PM)
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 54 minutes, 29 seconds
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22434088 - 10/25/15 10:49 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
amp244 said: I don't know why you people continue to argue in support of DEM/REPs. Both parties are highly compromised and pander to the Wall Street elite, regardless of what they say to the American public.
A lot of us agree, and that's why some of us support Bernie Sanders. But he'll never get elected because Wall St won't let it happen.
I'm not totally sold on Sanders either, especially after he let Hilary of the hook with his "damn emails" stunt. If he was really trying get the nomination, he would have just kept his mouth shut and let her take all of the negative publicity she could get. Instead he threw her a life saver and pretty much sealed her fate as the Dem nominee. Its hard for me to wrap my head around that one. Its like when Romney was going up against Obama and chose not to mention the "Fast and the Furious" scandal. He wasn't genuinely trying to win in my opinion. I get a similar feeling about Sanders after that stunt.
Either way I agree that Sanders will never get a Dem nomination with all his anti-wall street proclamations.
You don't become the "people's candidate" by using smear tactics and playing dirty politics.
--------------------
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22434096 - 10/25/15 10:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree with you 100%. The idea that if you take money out of the private sector and filter it through government, then give what's left to whatever constituency is 'in need' of government money and it will grow the economy and create jobs, is absurd. That little bit of free stuff that is given to poor people is merely scraps thrown to keep the good little puppy dogs wagging their tails and pulling the levers in november.
And the idea that since the government is corrupt and out of control, that we can grow the government and create more rules and regulations and put more government people in charge of things to fix the situation is equally absurd.
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22434097 - 10/25/15 10:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yea but he wasn't the one smearing... He stopped a third party from smearing... There is a huge difference.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22434102 - 10/25/15 10:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
You don't become the "people's candidate" by using smear tactics and playing dirty politics.
Yeah. In this day and age you become the peoples candidate by promising free stuff.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 54 minutes, 29 seconds
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: starfire_xes]
#22434124 - 10/25/15 10:59 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: I agree with you 100%. The idea that if you take money out of the private sector and filter it through government, then give what's left to whatever constituency is 'in need' of government money and it will grow the economy and create jobs, is absurd. That little bit of free stuff that is given to poor people is merely scraps thrown to keep the good little puppy dogs wagging their tails and pulling the levers in november.
And the idea that since the government is corrupt and out of control, that we can grow the government and create more rules and regulations and put more government people in charge of things to fix the situation is equally absurd.
What filter are we talking about?
In the context of single payer, the only filter that exists is the one we remove from the profit oriented health insurance industry. Without billions being made off the backs of sick people, we can help more of them.
--------------------
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: starfire_xes] 1
#22434175 - 10/25/15 11:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
You don't become the "people's candidate" by using smear tactics and playing dirty politics.
Yeah. In this day and age you become the peoples candidate by promising free stuff.
Bernie's campaign is about much more than 'free stuff', and you know it.
Quote:
starfire_xes said: I agree with you 100%. The idea that if you take money out of the private sector and filter it through government, then give what's left to whatever constituency is 'in need' of government money and it will grow the economy and create jobs, is absurd. That little bit of free stuff that is given to poor people is merely scraps thrown to keep the good little puppy dogs wagging their tails and pulling the levers in november.
And the idea that since the government is corrupt and out of control, that we can grow the government and create more rules and regulations and put more government people in charge of things to fix the situation is equally absurd.
The terms 'big government' or 'grow the government' are oversimplifications of the subject, really. You use the term 'grow the government' as a representation for a whole host of things that are much more nuanced and philosophically intricate than just 'grow government'.
This country needs a redistribution of wealth desperately. This has nothing to do with Keynesian economics. It's about creating jobs that the private sector has shipped off, or won't create, thereby tightening the labor market, and forcing wages to rise. We will do this by taxing those that have leached more than their fair share from the economy via casino banking and rigging of the system. Not money printing.
Creating jobs repairing our infrastructure will have a two-fold benefit, and it is NOT a hand-out.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22434189 - 10/25/15 11:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Repairing what infrastructure?
Edited by starfire_xes (10/25/15 11:23 PM)
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22434205 - 10/25/15 11:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said: I agree with you 100%. The idea that if you take money out of the private sector and filter it through government, then give what's left to whatever constituency is 'in need' of government money and it will grow the economy and create jobs, is absurd. That little bit of free stuff that is given to poor people is merely scraps thrown to keep the good little puppy dogs wagging their tails and pulling the levers in november.
And the idea that since the government is corrupt and out of control, that we can grow the government and create more rules and regulations and put more government people in charge of things to fix the situation is equally absurd.
What filter are we talking about?
In the context of single payer, the only filter that exists is the one we remove from the profit oriented health insurance industry. Without billions being made off the backs of sick people, we can help more of them.
Ecstatic, you have to understand that this system is not only securing the profits of the private health insurance industry, but INCREASING them as well. The money is being removed from the private sector at large, and placed into the pockets of the private insurance companies. The government is using its punitive powers to force the taxpayer to fund universal health care. This creates more customers for the health insurance industry and assures its profits. It is reallocating the wealth of the greater population into the hands of fewer individuals. It is adding to the wealth disparity in this country.
Obamacare is not "free" by any means. Every health plan has to be paid for by someone. Just because Johnny doesn't pay anything out of pocket for his plan, doesn't mean that Jill isn't paying way more than she should to make up the difference. It is a law, punishable by fine, that you MUST have health insurance. So not only does the new system allow the "profit oriented health insurance industry" to make money off the backs of sick people, it allows them to make money off the backs of all people.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22434261 - 10/25/15 11:44 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
You don't become the "people's candidate" by using smear tactics and playing dirty politics.
Yeah. In this day and age you become the peoples candidate by promising free stuff.
Bernie's campaign is about much more than 'free stuff', and you know it.
Quote:
starfire_xes said: I agree with you 100%. The idea that if you take money out of the private sector and filter it through government, then give what's left to whatever constituency is 'in need' of government money and it will grow the economy and create jobs, is absurd. That little bit of free stuff that is given to poor people is merely scraps thrown to keep the good little puppy dogs wagging their tails and pulling the levers in november.
And the idea that since the government is corrupt and out of control, that we can grow the government and create more rules and regulations and put more government people in charge of things to fix the situation is equally absurd.
The terms 'big government' or 'grow the government' are oversimplifications of the subject, really. You use the term 'grow the government' as a representation for a whole host of things that are much more nuanced and philosophically intricate than just 'grow government'.
This country needs a redistribution of wealth desperately. This has nothing to do with Keynesian economics. It's about creating jobs that the private sector has shipped off, or won't create, thereby tightening the labor market, and forcing wages to rise. We will do this by taxing those that have leached more than their fair share from the economy via casino banking and rigging of the system. Not money printing.
Creating jobs repairing our infrastructure will have a two-fold benefit, and it is NOT a hand-out.
But the question is, who will pay for it? If you say that it will come from taxing those that have leached more than their fair share, then you will undoubtedly be pushing more money out of the country. Do you honestly expect these people to just roll over and give up all of their money? The more you tax, the more they send money and consequently, jobs, out of the country. You need to grow the private sector, not shrink it. Creating jobs through unnecessary public works programs does nothing but provide temporary employment for one person while simultaneously taking it away from someone else.
Sure, certain public works and projects are necessary to make the country more efficient. I am not concerned with these matters whatsoever. But to simply start building shit with the intention of "creating jobs" when said shit is not needed, you are squandering away what otherwise could have been put to use to satisfy what the market is actually in demand of. I sympathize with your concerns about the outsourcing and income disparity, but perhaps these problems can be addressed by taxing such practices. If you want to make sneakers in china with child labor at 10 cents an hour, then why not impose a tax on sneakers made in this manner. Make it so it is not cost effective to do such things. America is a consumer based economy, the power rests in the consumer. If a pair of sneakers made in china costs less than a pair made in America on the Walmart shelves, people will buy the sneakers from China. However, if the opposite is true then the people will buy those made in America. Having the trusty government waltz in and create shoe factories that will employ thousands and give "free" shoes to everyone at the expense of the taxpayer will do nothing to minimize the income disparity.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
Edited by amp244 (10/25/15 11:50 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22434328 - 10/26/15 12:09 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said: For every public sector job created through government projects, or every increase in welfare entitlements, a job is lost in the private sector
If you tax a wealthy person to pay for a job, no jobs are lost. Wealthy people don't just hire people out of the goodness of their hearts because they have extra money to spend.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: starfire_xes]
#22434337 - 10/26/15 12:12 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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starfire_xes said: The idea that if you take money out of the private sector and filter it through government, then give what's left to whatever constituency is 'in need' of government money and it will grow the economy and create jobs, is absurd.
But that's not what happens. You take money from the rich, and feed it right back into the private sector.
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starfire_xes said: And the idea that since the government is corrupt and out of control, that we can grow the government and create more rules and regulations and put more government people in charge of things to fix the situation is equally absurd.
It is absurd. That's why we need to elect people who aren't corrupt; Bernie Sanders is a good example.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: amp244]
#22434364 - 10/26/15 12:21 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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starfire_xes said: Repairing what infrastructure?
America's crumbling infrastructure. Stay with me bro.
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amp244 said:
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Bigbadwooof said:
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starfire_xes said:
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The Ecstatic said:
You don't become the "people's candidate" by using smear tactics and playing dirty politics.
Yeah. In this day and age you become the peoples candidate by promising free stuff.
Bernie's campaign is about much more than 'free stuff', and you know it.
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starfire_xes said: I agree with you 100%. The idea that if you take money out of the private sector and filter it through government, then give what's left to whatever constituency is 'in need' of government money and it will grow the economy and create jobs, is absurd. That little bit of free stuff that is given to poor people is merely scraps thrown to keep the good little puppy dogs wagging their tails and pulling the levers in november.
And the idea that since the government is corrupt and out of control, that we can grow the government and create more rules and regulations and put more government people in charge of things to fix the situation is equally absurd.
The terms 'big government' or 'grow the government' are oversimplifications of the subject, really. You use the term 'grow the government' as a representation for a whole host of things that are much more nuanced and philosophically intricate than just 'grow government'.
This country needs a redistribution of wealth desperately. This has nothing to do with Keynesian economics. It's about creating jobs that the private sector has shipped off, or won't create, thereby tightening the labor market, and forcing wages to rise. We will do this by taxing those that have leached more than their fair share from the economy via casino banking and rigging of the system. Not money printing.
Creating jobs repairing our infrastructure will have a two-fold benefit, and it is NOT a hand-out.
But the question is, who will pay for it? If you say that it will come from taxing those that have leached more than their fair share, then you will undoubtedly be pushing more money out of the country. Do you honestly expect these people to just roll over and give up all of their money? The more you tax, the more they send money and consequently, jobs, out of the country. You need to grow the private sector, not shrink it. Creating jobs through unnecessary public works programs does nothing but provide temporary employment for one person while simultaneously taking it away from someone else.
Sure, certain public works and projects are necessary to make the country more efficient. I am not concerned with these matters whatsoever. But to simply start building shit with the intention of "creating jobs" when said shit is not needed, you are squandering away what otherwise could have been put to use to satisfy what the market is actually in demand of. I sympathize with your concerns about the outsourcing and income disparity, but perhaps these problems can be addressed by taxing such practices. If you want to make sneakers in china with child labor at 10 cents an hour, then why not impose a tax on sneakers made in this manner. Make it so it is not cost effective to do such things. America is a consumer based economy, the power rests in the consumer. If a pair of sneakers made in china costs less than a pair made in America on the Walmart shelves, people will buy the sneakers from China. However, if the opposite is true then the people will buy those made in America. Having the trusty government waltz in and create shoe factories that will employ thousands and give "free" shoes to everyone at the expense of the taxpayer will do nothing to minimize the income disparity.
I already addressed who would pay for it. Do you honestly think that American citizens will settle for the tax breaks to the wealthiest that we've had for decades indefinitely?
Here's an example of one billionaire's take on the subject:
Another 1%er (Stephen King):
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Tax me for fuck's sake
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/30/stephen-king-tax-me-for-f-s-sake.html
Here's a CEO who took a pay cut to raise all of his employees wages to $70,000/year:
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Gravity Payments, that Seattle credit-card-payments processing company that said all its employees would earn at least $70,000 in three years, is defying the doomsayers.
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Price said he’d make up the extra cost by cutting his own $1.1 million pay.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-70000-minimum-wage-is-paying-off-for-that-seattle-company-2015-10-25
The point is, America can't afford anymore corporate welfare. Trickle down economics doesn't work. The government can take the money and employ people, tightening the labor market, thereby giving wage earners leverage against employers. We can also raise the minimum wage. Single payer is a cheaper and more effective system, as we can clearly see the world over.
People still want to make money in America, and they made plenty of money 50 years ago when tax rates were multiple figures of what they are today. It not only can be done, it has been.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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