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Kosky
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Removing caps from clusters
#22085367 - 08/13/15 08:47 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've got about 5 fruits coming from the same cluster on a brf cake, 3 have broken their veils and 2 have not. I read that removing the caps from the mature fruits will eliminate any spore problems, but I am wondering how they should be removed. They are on the small-medium side and have not opened up enough to get a blade close to where the cap connects with the rest of the stem. Any harm in cutting it high up on the stem and leaving a bit attached to the cap?
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taGyo
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: Kosky]
#22085413 - 08/13/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Don't remove the cap.
If the veil tears that means they've reached peak psychoactivity. From there the caps will open, drop spores and curl and the mushrooms will begin to deteriorate. Just pull them as the veil is tearing, no need to harvest all at once just the ones that are ready.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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Kosky
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: taGyo]
#22085423 - 08/13/15 09:04 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
taGyo said: Don't remove the cap.
If the veil tears that means they've reached peak psychoactivity. From there the caps will open, drop spores and curl and the mushrooms will begin to deteriorate. Just pull them as the veil is tearing, no need to harvest all at once just the ones that are ready.
I heard that removing the mature caps and leaving the stems will keep the growing ones undamaged long enough for them to develop. Are you saying I should just try to break the mature fruits from the rest of the cluster?
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taGyo
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: Kosky]
#22085433 - 08/13/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Pics.
I think I get your problem a little more now. What is your drying method? I wouldn't cut off the cap, that might send the wrong signal to the myc and the growing mushrooms will just put on a little water weight before starting to deteriorate. You may get 35 gram mushroom that peaked at 20 gram so your mushroom will be weak for it's size.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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Kosky
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: taGyo]
#22085860 - 08/13/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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How do I remove the mature fruit without damaging the rest?
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taGyo
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: Kosky]
#22085868 - 08/13/15 10:35 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would cut it with a scalpel. Sometimes you can peel one or two away. Are you sure those little ones aren't ready? They look like they're expanding and showing their veil.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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tahoe
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: taGyo]
#22086543 - 08/13/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
taGyo said: Don't remove the cap.
If the veil tears that means they've reached peak psychoactivity. From there the caps will open, drop spores and curl and the mushrooms will begin to deteriorate. Just pull them as the veil is tearing, no need to harvest all at once just the ones that are ready.
There is no evidence that a mushroom reaches its peak right before or during the veil breaking. Bad info. There always seems to be a few mushrooms that are a day or two ahead of the others. If picking them means damaging immature mushrooms next to them, I will cut the caps off. I will print the cap while waiting for the others to catch up.
-------------------- Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.
My Legacy https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987 Teh=The I need to proofread
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taGyo
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: tahoe]
#22086847 - 08/13/15 12:58 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
tahoe said:
Quote:
taGyo said: Don't remove the cap.
If the veil tears that means they've reached peak psychoactivity. From there the caps will open, drop spores and curl and the mushrooms will begin to deteriorate. Just pull them as the veil is tearing, no need to harvest all at once just the ones that are ready.
There is no evidence that a mushroom reaches its peak right before or during the veil breaking. Bad info. There always seems to be a few mushrooms that are a day or two ahead of the others. If picking them means damaging immature mushrooms next to them, I will cut the caps off. I will print the cap while waiting for the others to catch up.
Lol,
You should argue this with others, I'm just passing on what's common info 
And with that theory I'd just let them keep growing way past veil tearing and just cut off the caps to all of my mushrooms.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
Edited by taGyo (08/13/15 01:00 PM)
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Stropharis



Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 1,854
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: taGyo]
#22086970 - 08/13/15 01:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I personally would just let them finish up as a cluster, as soon I see the larger mushrooms begin to drop spores, I would harvest the entire cluster at once. They have a tendency to even out towards the end as well, the larger ones slow down and the little guys pick up speed in the maturing process, not perfect but always surprising to me. Either it be harvesting singles, harvesting early, cutting caps, waiting, we are splitting hairs here and it's all a matter of taste if you ask me.
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taGyo
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: Stropharis]
#22087065 - 08/13/15 01:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: taGyo]
#22087525 - 08/13/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I feel like every time you cut the big ones so the others can catch up they just end up maturing right away anyway, just harvest the whole thing.
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tahoe
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: bodhisatta]
#22087850 - 08/13/15 03:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Like usual here, a lot of common info is bad info. I would imagine that a very mature and dying mushroom would start losing potency. The reason behind picking mushrooms before the veil opens is spore load. Same goes with Portobello's and oyster. They taste better when young.
-------------------- Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.
My Legacy https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987 Teh=The I need to proofread
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taGyo
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: tahoe]
#22087860 - 08/13/15 03:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I mean you kind of implied that if I let it continue to grow I could get more actives out of it. Most of those look like the veil is showing period, he could harvest the whole thing like Bod said.
But okay
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niclovinz10
MC

Registered: 09/03/14
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: tahoe]
#22087878 - 08/13/15 03:46 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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When you go to harvest clusters you have to be sure to damage surrounding mushies. I normally harvest the whole cluster as to not worry about rot.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: niclovinz10]
#22087899 - 08/13/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
niclovinz10 said: When you go to harvest clusters you have to be sure to damage surrounding mushies. I normally harvest the whole cluster as to not worry about rot.
?????????
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taGyo
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: Mad Season]
#22087907 - 08/13/15 03:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Typo.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: taGyo]
#22087918 - 08/13/15 03:54 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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there's some evidence not directly related to cubensis but other species with indole alkaloids that are used by the mycelium for spore pigmentation. when the cubensis matures and forms spores not only are the cells engorging with water but some of those alkaloids are being broken down endogenously to carry out end of life reproductive tasks. this is common in some other species and it's not too far off to expect something similar happening in cubensis.
which would mean that as spores form your % potency goes down, this would be super minimal compared to your genetics playing a role, and your drying and storage.
if you have a pin just about to mature weighs 100g you may assume it dries to about 10g when cracker dry if you took that same pin and let it mature till it weighed 115g you might assume it would dry to about 11.5g but it will actually dry up to about 10g. if you were to eat them fresh the fully mature shrooms may appear less potent, if you dry them to cracker dry it should all even out anyway.
it's anecdotal evidence but with the wealth of studies of similar but non active mushrooms the theory is strongly supported, I would love to see some evidence to the contrary though.
just because you don't know evidence exists doesn't mean you can go around saying there's no evidence. that's called politics
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: taGyo]
#22087933 - 08/13/15 03:58 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I figured lol. I was more so like what are you talking about rot? I've never seen a mushroom rot. They turn black if you leave them too long, but that is still mycelium, and it will turn to white myc after awhile. It would surely take longer to "rot", than it would for those mushrooms to mature.
I put rot in quotes because mushrooms are rot.
Edited by Mad Season (08/13/15 03:59 PM)
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taGyo
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: bodhisatta]
#22087934 - 08/13/15 03:58 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: there's some evidence not directly related to cubensis but other species with indole alkaloids that are used by the mycelium for spore pigmentation. when the cubensis matures and forms spores not only are the cells engorging with water but some of those alkaloids are being broken down endogenously to carry out end of life reproductive tasks. this is common in some other species and it's not too far off to expect something similar happening in cubensis.
which would mean that as spores form your % potency goes down, this would be super minimal compared to your genetics playing a role, and your drying and storage.
if you have a pin just about to mature weighs 100g you may assume it dries to about 10g when cracker dry if you took that same pin and let it mature till it weighed 115g you might assume it would dry to about 11.5g but it will actually dry up to about 10g. if you were to eat them fresh the fully mature shrooms may appear less potent, if you dry them to cracker dry it should all even out anyway.
it's anecdotal evidence but with the wealth of studies of similar but non active mushrooms the theory is strongly supported, I would love to see some evidence to the contrary though.
just because you don't know evidence exists doesn't mean you can go around saying there's no evidence. that's called politics
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Removing caps from clusters [Re: taGyo]
#22087991 - 08/13/15 04:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC120793/
Quote:
Kizzle said: I know this threads getting old but I found some interesting information.
A couple quotes from this paper:
Quote:
Secondary metabolism is commonly associated with sporulation processes in microorganisms (56, 77, 113), including fungi (21, 103). Secondary metabolites associated with sporulation can be placed into three broad categories: (i) metabolites that activate sporulation (for example, the linoleic acid-derived compounds produced by A. nidulans [23, 26, 27, 79]), (ii) pigments required for sporulation structures (for example melanins required for the formation or integrity of both sexual and asexual spores and overwintering bodies [6, 63]), and (iii) toxic metabolites secreted by growing colonies at the approximate time of sporulation (for example the biosynthesis of some deleterious natural products, such as mycotoxins [55, 120]).
Quote:
Some fungal pigments are natural products associated with developmental structures, the most common being melanins. Melanins are generally dark brown pigments formed by oxidative polymerization of phenolic compounds and are synthesized during spore formation for deposition in the cell wall. Melanin biosynthesis has been well studied in pathogenic fungi, where the pigment not only contributes to the survival of the fungal spore by protecting against damaging UV light but is also an important virulence factor.
You can even see some similarities in the likely psilocin oxidation products and the compounds used for melanin production:


Regardless of whether melanin is an actual chemical being produced it's obvious that oxidizing psilocin produces very strongly colored pigments where a very small amount produces a very strong coloring effect. Maybe they're used, possibly by being altered into other related pigments, in coloring the spores. Even then there could be other functions as well. I mean a compound with many uses is just that much more beneficial.
Quote:
Kizzle said:
I have a hypothesis that some of the psilocybin/psilocin is consumed during spore production since it's oxidation products can be polymerized into pigments and that's similar to methods used by other fungi to pigmentize their spores and/or caps.
If it's true the apparent decreased spore production that occurs in darkness could possibly lead to more psilocybin or psilocin accumulating in the fruit body.
Quote:
Kizzle said: It seems like a lot albinos develop a little green/blue tint to the cap. You could call it bruising but it's pigmentation nonetheless.
The fact that there are red spore producing strains of Cubensis might suggest the violet spore color is the result of both a red pigment and a blue pigment.
I have seen an enormous amount of anecdotal evidence supporting the maturation vs potency debate
I have seen an enormous amount of evidence in fungi in general that a similar mechanism is highly likely in cubensis. though you can only correlate the evidence and correlation is a weak link in science the phenomenon of pigmentation in fungi and relating to alkaloids it's pretty ubiquitous
Tahoe what evidence do you have that calls BS on that theory? I have only seen people calling it BS with nothing to back it up
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