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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22454360 - 10/30/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Thought some of you guys might appreciate this.  It's an interview with Sheldon Wolin, a political philosopher.

Can Capitalism and Democracy Coexist?

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12550


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22454367 - 10/30/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
No fight.

Just pointing out you say things you won't back up.

Just pointing out your erections are income dependent.

Though watching you attempting to pat yourself on the back is pretty entertaining.




I can honestly say, after being on and off Shroomery for about 7 years and having seen a lot of threads and posts, the only person I've seen talk repeatedly about erections and dick size is you ... and you do it over and over and over.  And even more odd in a political discussion forum.

It's just strange, that's all ... It's even in the quote by your avatar.  It's obviously an issue for you as you keep bringing it up.




As it's a very old saying that's apt for many discussions, I'll keep using it.

Clearly it's spot on. Why do you equate penis size/manhood with income?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22454412 - 10/30/15 04:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting that you prefer to take the high road and not respond to stupid posts, when you seem to be responsible for the recent slew of probably the stupidest posts on this thread.

Maybe we can just drop it... Like it's hot...

It's a saying.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Posts: 13,337
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22454423 - 10/30/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Thought some of you guys might appreciate this.  It's an interview with Sheldon Wolin, a political philosopher.

Can Capitalism and Democracy Coexist?

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12550




Capitalism and democracy can only coexist when democracy is also practiced within the workplace. If a Capitalist society is comprised of German worker-council style businesses or worker cooperatives, then Democracy will be prevalent in society.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22454460 - 10/30/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So basically to the extent that it's socialist?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22454526 - 10/30/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Thought some of you guys might appreciate this.  It's an interview with Sheldon Wolin, a political philosopher.

Can Capitalism and Democracy Coexist?

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12550




Very interesting interview.  I think without some kind of democratic element in business that applies pressure toward wages fairness, then that "energy" gets placed into the political sphere.  Right now, we have EXTREME wage control by corporations allowing one employee to make 300-500 times more than another with really minimal recourse  for the low paid employee (of course they can quit, but that doesn't help them much short term) so we the voters are asking government to intervene.

If a tax policy really encouraged less wage gaps and you combine that with the German model of labor being equally represented in the boardroom, then it takes less pressure off the government to fix it. 

What we're finding out for sure, is that the big corporations would be even happier if that pay gap was 3,000 X ... there is no limit to how high they would like it to go.  And, in fact when you look at wages paid in the cheapest labor markets as in a company like Nike or apple, the pay gap, may indeed, be well in to the thousands by now.

This breeds populism that doesn't always give us great leaders.  Trump is shouting that with better trade deals this will solve itself while Sanders claims we need more aggressive tax policy which feels more "direct" as a cure.  The unintended consequences of both of these approaches are really not thought through much by the voter, but are by corporations who will fight both of them tooth and nail to eliminate their remedies.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22454566 - 10/30/15 05:34 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
So basically to the extent that it's socialist?




Pretty much. Socialism is all about worker empowerment. That is it's goal. Capitalism is about Capitalist empowerment. That is it's goal.

When you concentrate power you have corruption. Plain and simple.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22454591 - 10/30/15 05:40 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

When you concentrate power you have corruption. Plain and simple.




THIS right here, cuts to the very heart of it.  Democracy is designed to de-centralize power and level the playing field for the less wealthy.  It is the very essence of Democracy.

When you concentrate wealth and resources into fewer hands, more corruption, collusion, exploitation, manipulation all INCREASE. 

America is healthier with a bigger, more successful middle class and a much smaller gap with the wealth/ruling class.  Lots of ideas on how to get there but clearly the path we are on now is a real threat to the future of the country.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22454679 - 10/30/15 06:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

When you concentrate power you have corruption. Plain and simple.




THIS right here, cuts to the very heart of it.  Democracy is designed to de-centralize power and level the playing field for the less wealthy.  It is the very essence of Democracy.

When you concentrate wealth and resources into fewer hands, more corruption, collusion, exploitation, manipulation all INCREASE. 

America is healthier with a bigger, more successful middle class and a much smaller gap with the wealth/ruling class.  Lots of ideas on how to get there but clearly the path we are on now is a real threat to the future of the country.




Right. I think it is pertinent to respect the actual goals of an economic system also.

The goal of Socialism is to create an economic system in which the laborers hold the power. The goal of Capitalism is to create a system in which Capitalists are empowered. The nature of Capitalism is to concentrate wealth. This is why I have always said that Capitalism is great for emerging economies, but over time it is necessarily warped into a concentrated power structure by means of the compounding of Capital.

I think that beyond labels such as 'Socialism, Capitalism, Fascism, etc', we as a society need to focus on the decentralization of power wherever possible. This includes financial power and governmental power. Probably the saving grace of America to this point has been the system of 'checks and balances'. I think it would be good to expand upon that, and bring that ideology into the business world also.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22454769 - 10/30/15 06:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

When you concentrate power you have corruption. Plain and simple.




THIS right here, cuts to the very heart of it.  Democracy is designed to de-centralize power and level the playing field for the less wealthy.  It is the very essence of Democracy.

When you concentrate wealth and resources into fewer hands, more corruption, collusion, exploitation, manipulation all INCREASE. 

America is healthier with a bigger, more successful middle class and a much smaller gap with the wealth/ruling class.  Lots of ideas on how to get there but clearly the path we are on now is a real threat to the future of the country.




Right. I think it is pertinent to respect the actual goals of an economic system also.

The goal of Socialism is to create an economic system in which the laborers hold the power. The goal of Capitalism is to create a system in which Capitalists are empowered. The nature of Capitalism is to concentrate wealth. This is why I have always said that Capitalism is great for emerging economies, but over time it is necessarily warped into a concentrated power structure by means of the compounding of Capital.

I think that beyond labels such as 'Socialism, Capitalism, Fascism, etc', we as a society need to focus on the decentralization of power wherever possible. This includes financial power and governmental power. Probably the saving grace of America to this point has been the system of 'checks and balances'. I think it would be good to expand upon that, and bring that ideology into the business world also.




The way I see it, corporations, as they are today, are another form of "government" the average person has to deal with.  Although is is true "you can always quit and work somewhere else" it's not really that easy.  When benefits, retirement plans, and years of investment moving up are taken into account, it's hard to leave good jobs at corporations.  Corporations have far more rules about behavior and what you can and can't do than the government does and that's all fine, except corporations themselves have grown so big and powerful that they are, in essence, a form of government that needs to be reformed.  Not with tax policy alone, although that's part of it ... but how labor participates in decision making, how profits are shared, how problems are resolved and the mandate that corporations MUST OPERATE IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE PUBLIC as they were intended to be back in the late 1700's. 

The power of corporations with their profits and free cash flow is simply unlike anything our world has ever seen before.  They have so much power to do good and create and spread prosperity and so much power to exploit and manipulate.  Corporations are literally purchasing our government.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22454804 - 10/30/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Another example is that... If you are educated in say the bio-engineering of crops, it is quite likely that the only job you will find is working for Monsanto (This isn't an anti-Monstanto rant btw. I have nothing against them, for the most part). Now lets say you have differences with management, or whatever might happen. You can't just go out and work for another bio-engineering company.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22454936 - 10/30/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Another example is that... If you are educated in say the bio-engineering of crops, it is quite likely that the only job you will find is working for Monsanto (This isn't an anti-Monstanto rant btw. I have nothing against them, for the most part). Now lets say you have differences with management, or whatever might happen. You can't just go out and work for another bio-engineering company.




When a corporation gets to the size of say, a billion in revenues, they really need to be looked at the way we look at government so that they're encouraged to "voluntarily" break up into smaller units or agree with their bigger size comes more intrusive "democracy" into the way that corporation governs itself.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 1 hour, 11 minutes
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22454994 - 10/30/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Another example is that... If you are educated in say the bio-engineering of crops, it is quite likely that the only job you will find is working for Monsanto (This isn't an anti-Monstanto rant btw. I have nothing against them, for the most part). Now lets say you have differences with management, or whatever might happen. You can't just go out and work for another bio-engineering company.




When a corporation gets to the size of say, a billion in revenues, they really need to be looked at the way we look at government so that they're encouraged to "voluntarily" break up into smaller units or agree with their bigger size comes more intrusive "democracy" into the way that corporation governs itself.




Exactly! Which is why the German worker councils only apply to large companies. It's like 49% of of the corporate decisions are made by elected representatives in companies with 500+ employees, and in companies with less it's only 30%. Smaller companies have no worker participation.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22455411 - 10/30/15 08:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Another example is that... If you are educated in say the bio-engineering of crops, it is quite likely that the only job you will find is working for Monsanto (This isn't an anti-Monstanto rant btw. I have nothing against them, for the most part). Now lets say you have differences with management, or whatever might happen. You can't just go out and work for another bio-engineering company.




When a corporation gets to the size of say, a billion in revenues, they really need to be looked at the way we look at government so that they're encouraged to "voluntarily" break up into smaller units or agree with their bigger size comes more intrusive "democracy" into the way that corporation governs itself.




then why don't you look at breaking up the federal govt the same way? giving more power to the states instead of the central authority?


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22455670 - 10/30/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
You can of course show me where I said you lied? While you're at it, show me where I called you a moocher.

I'll wait. :popcorn:



Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Too many spoiled little pukes with an over-inflated sense of entitlement.

Don't like what the upper class does? become one. Make the changes you seek in your company. Stop dictating what others do.

I am a business owner and have been for decades. Your complaints about a belief system are laughable to one who has been there/done that.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 1 hour, 11 minutes
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22455974 - 10/30/15 10:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Another example is that... If you are educated in say the bio-engineering of crops, it is quite likely that the only job you will find is working for Monsanto (This isn't an anti-Monstanto rant btw. I have nothing against them, for the most part). Now lets say you have differences with management, or whatever might happen. You can't just go out and work for another bio-engineering company.




When a corporation gets to the size of say, a billion in revenues, they really need to be looked at the way we look at government so that they're encouraged to "voluntarily" break up into smaller units or agree with their bigger size comes more intrusive "democracy" into the way that corporation governs itself.




then why don't you look at breaking up the federal govt the same way? giving more power to the states instead of the central authority?




I don't have a problem giving more power to the states. In fact, I like that Bernie said he would let the states themselves how to use the federal money for infrastructure projects.

Socialism is not about centralizing power, contrary to right-wing believe. Socialism is about empowering workers. That is it's goal. It is a labor movement.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinestarfire_xes
I Am 'They'
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22456095 - 10/30/15 11:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Yeah... just a chubby..





why? Bernie giving a speech tonight?


--------------------


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OfflineBigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs
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Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22456264 - 10/31/15 12:43 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Yeah... just a chubby..





why? Bernie giving a speech tonight?




I said a chub... not a raging fucking hardon..


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22456714 - 10/31/15 07:43 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
You can of course show me where I said you lied? While you're at it, show me where I called you a moocher.

I'll wait. :popcorn:



Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Too many spoiled little pukes with an over-inflated sense of entitlement.

Don't like what the upper class does? become one. Make the changes you seek in your company. Stop dictating what others do.

I am a business owner and have been for decades. Your complaints about a belief system are laughable to one who has been there/done that.







Really? You consider that an accusation of lying?  :lmafo:  So I can go on waiting.

:dudewtf:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22456750 - 10/31/15 07:56 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

then why don't you look at breaking up the federal govt the same way? giving more power to the states instead of the central authority?




As I told you before, I am not only FOR more decentralizing of power away from the Federal Government, I'm for a regional breakup of America into 4-5 regions giving the federal government the sole responsibility of national security and nothing else.

Each Region would then pursue goals of energy, food, manufacturing and employment INDEPENDENCE so the entire country would become more resilient, diversified and resistant to the damage of globalization.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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