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Offlineqman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22257325 - 09/18/15 06:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

Because Wall Street caused a global financial meltdown?




:lolwut:  What does that have to do with the economic malaise that has infected Europe the past 15 years? 

Their debt continues to explode higher, the current economic socialist model is not sustainable in its current form.

Wall Street is responsible for a lot of problems, but the current economic issues in the EU isn't one of them.




Immigration is not responsible for the current problems in the EU. They have the exact same problems that we had with the housing market bubbles, and banking speculation, which caused their economies to crash. I don't know how you can witness the exact same phenomena in two different regions of the world, and blame two separate causes.

The truth is, Capitalism has destroyed most of the world. The European countries which embraced Socialist principles, like Germany, didn't feel the effects of the global financial crisis on nearly the same scale as the more Capitalist countries, like America.




To be fair, globalization has also fucked up most European nations just like the US, the influx of immigrants just compounds the problem, just like here in the US.

In fact, I would bet that our illegal immigrants are 5 times less detrimental than the scum that enters the EU, Europe can't afford them.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman] * 1
    #22257337 - 09/18/15 06:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Again, your argument boils down to "socialism is gonna fail because brown people."




It wouldn't matter if they were purple, bringing in unproductive people from a foreign land that can't read or speak the native language is a disaster for any country.

Who feels good about having your tax money going to support people that invaded your homeland?  No one, and then the resentment builds.




I think you're mischaracterizing immigrants. I have not found them to be lazy or unproductive. They work hard for lower wages, and bloat the labor market, sure. This is why we need to have strong unions, tarrifs, and a high minimum wage. They are not anymore lazy than anyone else. The Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashians of the world soaking up resources and giving nothing back are fucking lazy.

Some of them are incredibly educated. For instance, a very significant portion of NASA employees are Indian, though they make up less than 5% of the population. It's called 'Brain Draining', and America does this more than anyone. Smart educated people from other countries flock to America.

Our companies outsource jobs to Mexico. They are not lazy, they do the same work for lower wages. That's the problem with immigration. There aren't enough good jobs in the world for everyone to have one, and free trade allows companies to give them to the lowest bidder. Gradually all of our wealth will be sucked out of our economy and we will be left with an uneducated, inexperienced, destitute workforce. We need to get a handle on these things before we don't have options.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlineqman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22257339 - 09/18/15 06:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The EU countries having the most problems are the ones most reliant on tourism.  This is directly related to the crash.




The deterioration of economic activity is the reason why tourism is not as strong as it could be, the 2008 crash is old news.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22257369 - 09/18/15 06:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Again, your argument boils down to "socialism is gonna fail because brown people."




It wouldn't matter if they were purple, bringing in unproductive people from a foreign land that can't read or speak the native language is a disaster for any country.

Who feels good about having your tax money going to support people that invaded your homeland?  No one, and then the resentment builds.




I think you're mischaracterizing immigrants. I have not found them to be lazy or unproductive. They work hard for lower wages, and bloat the labor market, sure. This is why we need to have strong unions, tarrifs, and a high minimum wage. They are not anymore lazy than anyone else. The Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashians of the world soaking up resources and giving nothing back are fucking lazy.

Some of them are incredibly educated. For instance, a very significant portion of NASA employees are Indian, though they make up less than 5% of the population. It's called 'Brain Draining', and America does this more than anyone. Smart educated people from other countries flock to America.

Our companies outsource jobs to Mexico. They are not lazy, they do the same work for lower wages. That's the problem with immigration. There aren't enough good jobs in the world for everyone to have one, and free trade allows companies to give them to the lowest bidder. Gradually all of our wealth will be sucked out of our economy and we will be left with an uneducated, inexperienced, destitute workforce. We need to get a handle on these things before we don't have options.




It doesn't matter, we have too many available workers relative to demand. Guess what happens when they don't have a job?  They need public assistance!!! If they don't have a job, who pays for their health care, education for their children, and prisons for their criminal acts? You and me!!

So it's not so much about work ETHIC, it's about the availability of jobs to support themselves and pay for all of their social services.  Those jobs DON'T exist, and even if they did we have 50 million Americans who need them before someone who invaded the US!!


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman] * 1
    #22257380 - 09/18/15 06:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You're suggesting 2008 isn't still having repercussions?

The Scandinavian countries are doing fine by the way.  So socialism == more debt doesn't fly.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlineqman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22257424 - 09/18/15 06:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
You're suggesting 2008 isn't still having repercussions?

The Scandinavian countries are doing fine by the way.  So socialism == more debt doesn't fly.




Socialism doesn't have to = more debt, but the cherry picking of the Scandinavian countries does very little for this debate. The consumer debt is off the charts, it can't last forever.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-13/nordic-crisis-waiting-to-happen-puzzles-krugman-assessing-debts


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22257432 - 09/18/15 06:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
It doesn't matter, we have too many available workers relative to demand. Guess what happens when they don't have a job?  They need public assistance!!! If they don't have a job, who pays for their health care, education for their children, and prisons for their criminal acts? You and me!!

So it's not so much about work ETHIC, it's about the availability of jobs to support themselves and pay for all of their social services.  Those jobs DON'T exist, and even if they did we have 50 million Americans who need them before someone who invaded the US!!




I was just arguing with your premise that they are lazy and uneducated. A lot of the time immigrants take American jobs, and Americans go on welfare programs. I am not pro-immigration. I just don't despise immigrants. From an economic perspective, they are bad, but only if the labor market is already saturated. In really high end NASA jobs, there is usually room for highly educated immigrants.

This has nothing to do with whether or not Socialism will work. It hurts Capitalist and Socialist countries, though I think Socialist countries are more capable of coping.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22257439 - 09/18/15 06:39 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
You're suggesting 2008 isn't still having repercussions?

The Scandinavian countries are doing fine by the way.  So socialism == more debt doesn't fly.




Socialism doesn't have to = more debt, but the cherry picking of the Scandinavian countries does very little for this debate. The consumer debt is off the charts, it can't last forever.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-13/nordic-crisis-waiting-to-happen-puzzles-krugman-assessing-debts




Consumer debt is off the charts in Scandinavia lmao. It's off the charts in EVERY industrialized country. Tell me a Capitalist country that doesn't have consumer debt off the charts?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22257444 - 09/18/15 06:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Again, your argument boils down to "socialism is gonna fail because brown people."




It wouldn't matter if they were purple, bringing in unproductive people from a foreign land that can't read or speak the native language is a disaster for any country.

Who feels good about having your tax money going to support people that invaded your homeland?  No one, and then the resentment builds.




Then why didn't America crumble during the Potato Famine?


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22257536 - 09/18/15 06:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
It doesn't matter, we have too many available workers relative to demand. Guess what happens when they don't have a job?  They need public assistance!!! If they don't have a job, who pays for their health care, education for their children, and prisons for their criminal acts? You and me!!

So it's not so much about work ETHIC, it's about the availability of jobs to support themselves and pay for all of their social services.  Those jobs DON'T exist, and even if they did we have 50 million Americans who need them before someone who invaded the US!!




I was just arguing with your premise that they are lazy and uneducated. A lot of the time immigrants take American jobs, and Americans go on welfare programs. I am not pro-immigration. I just don't despise immigrants. From an economic perspective, they are bad, but only if the labor market is already saturated. In really high end NASA jobs, there is usually room for highly educated immigrants.

This has nothing to do with whether or not Socialism will work. It hurts Capitalist and Socialist countries, though I think Socialist countries are more capable of coping.




The very large majority are uneducated, stop cherry picking the success stories, we are not talking about the top 1%, we are talking about the 99%!!

"I think Socialist countries are more capable of coping"

If you call giving unproductive leeches free social services "coping", so be it.  It's still a shitty way of going about business and it's not sustainable in the longer term.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22257554 - 09/18/15 07:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

What nation is $18 trillion in debt?

Oh the capitalist one?

I'm sure it's the leeches' fault.


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22257566 - 09/18/15 07:02 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Again, your argument boils down to "socialism is gonna fail because brown people."




It wouldn't matter if they were purple, bringing in unproductive people from a foreign land that can't read or speak the native language is a disaster for any country.

Who feels good about having your tax money going to support people that invaded your homeland?  No one, and then the resentment builds.




Then why didn't America crumble during the Potato Famine?




Do you have a point to that question?


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22257584 - 09/18/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What nation is $18 trillion in debt?

Oh the capitalist one?

I'm sure it's the leeches' fault.




There's a lot of faults to go around, why should the US embrace more of something it can't afford?

"the capitalist one?"

The days of capitalism left the room decades ago.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22257606 - 09/18/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Again, your argument boils down to "socialism is gonna fail because brown people."




It wouldn't matter if they were purple, bringing in unproductive people from a foreign land that can't read or speak the native language is a disaster for any country.

Who feels good about having your tax money going to support people that invaded your homeland?  No one, and then the resentment builds.




Then why didn't America crumble during the Potato Famine?




Do you have a point to that question?




Yeah I thought it was pretty obvious:

A shit ton of uneducated, illiterate Irish flooded to America and somehow society didn't collapse. It improved.


--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22257617 - 09/18/15 07:13 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What nation is $18 trillion in debt?

Oh the capitalist one?

I'm sure it's the leeches' fault.




There's a lot of faults to go around, why should the US embrace more of something it can't afford?

"the capitalist one?"

The days of capitalism left the room decades ago.




Like back when Rockefeller was having the military massacre workers striking for a liveable wage?

I too long for the Gilded Age.


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22257656 - 09/18/15 07:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Again, your argument boils down to "socialism is gonna fail because brown people."




It wouldn't matter if they were purple, bringing in unproductive people from a foreign land that can't read or speak the native language is a disaster for any country.

Who feels good about having your tax money going to support people that invaded your homeland?  No one, and then the resentment builds.




Then why didn't America crumble during the Potato Famine?




Do you have a point to that question?




Yeah I thought it was pretty obvious:

A shit ton of uneducated, illiterate Irish flooded to America and somehow society didn't collapse. It improved.





The labor markets and economy during that time period were just a little different than current day, why are you comparing apples to oranges?

Also, the Irish had a common culture and heritage with the native population, that can't be said today.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22257675 - 09/18/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What nation is $18 trillion in debt?

Oh the capitalist one?

I'm sure it's the leeches' fault.




There's a lot of faults to go around, why should the US embrace more of something it can't afford?

"the capitalist one?"

The days of capitalism left the room decades ago.




Like back when Rockefeller was having the military massacre workers striking for a live able wage?

I too long for the Gilded Age.




If you read my posts earlier in the thread you would realize that I'm not against socialist programs, my point is they don't work when the country is littered with illegals and dysfunctional cultures.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Posts: 33,368
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22257688 - 09/18/15 07:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
You're suggesting 2008 isn't still having repercussions?

The Scandinavian countries are doing fine by the way.  So socialism == more debt doesn't fly.




Socialism doesn't have to = more debt, but the cherry picking of the Scandinavian countries does very little for this debate. The consumer debt is off the charts, it can't last forever.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-13/nordic-crisis-waiting-to-happen-puzzles-krugman-assessing-debts




Let's list the capitalist nations and the socialist ones and see which side has more total public debt.

Actually, let's not, because anyone with a brain knows the answer to that.


--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,368
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22257697 - 09/18/15 07:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What nation is $18 trillion in debt?

Oh the capitalist one?

I'm sure it's the leeches' fault.




There's a lot of faults to go around, why should the US embrace more of something it can't afford?

"the capitalist one?"

The days of capitalism left the room decades ago.




Like back when Rockefeller was having the military massacre workers striking for a live able wage?

I too long for the Gilded Age.




If you read my posts earlier in the thread you would realize that I'm not against socialist programs, my point is they don't work when the country is littered with illegals and dysfunctional cultures.




So you're advocating socialism, and simply denouncing illegal immigration?

I'll remember that.


--------------------


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22257712 - 09/18/15 07:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The labor markets and economy during that time period were just a little different than current day, why are you comparing apples to oranges?

Also, the Irish had a common culture and heritage with the native population, that can't be said today.




I would argue that Mexicans have more of a common culture/heritage with Americans than the Irish. Mexicans and Americans both emerged via conquest from European nations. Irish culture is very dissimilar to American culture, which is evidenced by the clear racism (culturism?) against the Irish at the time. You're saying they weren't brown. Big fucking deal. I think we can get over that little hurdle with a bit of education down South ;-)


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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