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Offlineqman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22101994 - 08/17/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

One of main problems with CEO pay is how demoralizing it is for the workforce, it clearly shows the worker bees how the system now works and that reality is difficult to digest.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22102007 - 08/17/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
One of main problems with CEO pay is how demoralizing it is for the workforce, it clearly shows the worker bees how the system now works and that reality is difficult to digest.




One of the worst outcomes of these enormous pay gaps is that literally thousands and thousands of our brightest people come to work and think and plan all day long how to cut labor costs so they can increase their own executive bonuses. 

What if the problem was different as in ... coming to work to figure out how EVERYONE in the company can make more money while making a better, more competitive product.  When labor cuts and huge pay gaps benefit less than 1% of the employees, something's wrong.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlineqman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22102033 - 08/17/15 09:43 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:
One of main problems with CEO pay is how demoralizing it is for the workforce, it clearly shows the worker bees how the system now works and that reality is difficult to digest.




One of the worst outcomes of these enormous pay gaps is that literally thousands and thousands of our brightest people come to work and think and plan all day long how to cut labor costs so they can increase their own executive bonuses. 

What if the problem was different as in ... coming to work to figure out how EVERYONE in the company can make more money while making a better, more competitive product.  When labor cuts and huge pay gaps benefit less than 1% of the employees, something's wrong.




Well, this is the part of "capitalism" that most capitalists DON'T want to talk about, 25 years ago it was about reinvesting the profits for growth opportunities, this included expanding the amount of employees and moving people up within the organization.

Today, since companies revenues are relatively flat to slightly higher, it's all about cutting costs and hoarding the profits.

How much executive talent does it take for Apple to manufacture products in Indonesia and China?  Not much.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22102071 - 08/17/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

> What I'd do is offer a corporate tax option (I said option a corporation could freely choose) that would drop the corporate tax rate down to 5% for any company that FREELY CHOOSES to reduce the pay gap from top to bottom to no more than 25X

While lowering the corporate tax rate is a worthwhile endeavor, what about the lost revenue to govt? From 35% down to 5% is not just an incentive, its a tectonic shift from the present system. Corporations would merely dream up more ways to disguise compensation, either deferred until later or perhaps deposited in an untaxed offshore account. Any company that did not grab the 5% would either be a very small one or one soon to go out of business. You can't compete against a tax advantage like that.

If you had said lower it for all companies to max of 30% and 25% for those who follow your scheme, that would call for serious evaluation. This is a non starter. The govt is going deeper in debt by the minute and you want to slash revenue for the sole goal of bringing about a socialistic ideal.

What overriding objective is realized by the govt interference you suggest? You don't want to just raise the min, you want to punish the top executive. They have so many ways to get around it anyhow, they could replace the position of ceo with the board making all decisions and a "caretaker" or some other title who actually makes the decisions and carries them out much like the ceo. They could appoint a committee to take his place with one guy who has more authority than the others, it would be child's play to circumvent your moonbat plan.

Again, I hear nothing about athletes, entertainers, investors, etc making enormous amounts. No doubt they will be in the cross hairs later when the commies get their way with ceo pay. You can't raise up the sheep by striking down those who have done well. Trump didn't make his money as ceo, he made it via investments.

Don't hate those who do better than you, try to be like them.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22102088 - 08/17/15 10:03 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:


Then the board is not doing its job when they set ceo pay and bonuses. Shareholders should vote them out if that is the case. Wage controls as you propose have never worked. Not that I believe your unsupported statement about "research" no doubt done by some ultra left wing group of nutjobs and uni professors.




I'm not suggesting wage controls.  What I'd do is offer a corporate tax option (I said option a corporation could freely choose) that would drop the corporate tax rate down to 5% for any company that FREELY CHOOSES to reduce the pay gap from top to bottom to no more than 25X.  A formula would be produced to convert off shored and outsourced jobs to keep it all honest.  If the company doesn't want and wants a 300X pay gap situation, they pay a higher corporate tax.

There's a big difference between USSR Communism and wage controls than a more reasonable sharing of corporate profits.  Guys like you that see things in black and white rarely see thing clearly.  Great solutions are rarely at the extreme end.




:lmafo:

Too funny. Why do so many think that coming up with a different name for something somehow changes that thing?

A rose by any other name... still smells as sweet.

A company bribed with tax options... still stinks as bad.

What you just described is still wage controls. Do it the way we want... you get the carrot. Do it another way... you get the stick.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22102206 - 08/17/15 10:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:

Don't hate those who do better than you, try to be like them.




S - I think it's hard for you to understand or accept that I've been a business owner my entire adult life.  Started my first company at 22.  Had one failure and two successes, one of them big.  I'm financially well off.  I ran a professional services firm with over 60 employees and my lowest paid person made over $50k a year + great benefits.  I've been in the game as an owner, so I'm not some moocher trying to get stuff other people have earned.  I'm well off enough now that I can invest and do projects here and there that I like but am not dependent on work income anymore. 

Many of my clients were big multi nationals that had completely fucked up relationships with their customers.  We did a lot of analysis, strategy and long term work to fix those problems.  More often than not, the customer problems were a result of one of two things:

1. Mergers and financial engineering that benefitted senior management and shareholders but absolutely screwed the customers with poor service and confusing changes
2. Deep distrust between senior management and front line employees that actually interact with customers (sales, service and tech) brought on, by a large part, by the low wages paid to front line people in comparison to the salaries of the decision makers that fucked things up in the first place. 

I've been around the block with big companies and have been in literally hundreds of board meetings at the highest level and I know exactly what problems are discussed and the cost cutting angle that almost always wins out and results in poorer service and less real compensation to the lower rungs of the company.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22102209 - 08/17/15 10:27 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Anyone can talk lets see some evidence of your claims.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22102219 - 08/17/15 10:29 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:


Then the board is not doing its job when they set ceo pay and bonuses. Shareholders should vote them out if that is the case. Wage controls as you propose have never worked. Not that I believe your unsupported statement about "research" no doubt done by some ultra left wing group of nutjobs and uni professors.




I'm not suggesting wage controls.  What I'd do is offer a corporate tax option (I said option a corporation could freely choose) that would drop the corporate tax rate down to 5% for any company that FREELY CHOOSES to reduce the pay gap from top to bottom to no more than 25X.  A formula would be produced to convert off shored and outsourced jobs to keep it all honest.  If the company doesn't want and wants a 300X pay gap situation, they pay a higher corporate tax.

There's a big difference between USSR Communism and wage controls than a more reasonable sharing of corporate profits.  Guys like you that see things in black and white rarely see thing clearly.  Great solutions are rarely at the extreme end.




:lmafo:

Too funny. Why do so many think that coming up with a different name for something somehow changes that thing?

A rose by any other name... still smells as sweet.

A company bribed with tax options... still stinks as bad.

What you just described is still wage controls. Do it the way we want... you get the carrot. Do it another way... you get the stick.




Tax options are not wage controls.  The company has the freedom to choose their own path.  Government uses tax policy to influence change, what's new about that?  I could give you 1,000 examples many of which you may be taking advantage of yourself through deductions, etc. 

Tax incentives are not price and wage controls.  You're confused if you think this is the case.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22102234 - 08/17/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Anyone can talk lets see some evidence of your claims.




Given the nature of this site and the topics discussed, I certainly am not going to post for you my identify and the name of the most recent company I owned and sold a few years ago.  If you choose to believe I'm making it all up, that's your choice.  Have at it.  You would be wrong but that's how it works.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22102334 - 08/17/15 10:59 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Tax incentives are not price and wage controls.




Of course they are wage controls.


Quote:

You're confused if you think this is the case.




Sorry, you're the one who's confused. It's government attempting to get wages where they want them through use of tax monies. What's not controlling about that?

Do it the way we want... you get the carrot. Do it another way... you get the stick.

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

"not wage controls"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22102418 - 08/17/15 11:28 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>Tax options are not wage controls.

Of course they are wage controls in disguise.

> The company has the freedom to choose their own path

Yeah sure, they can choose to go broke or choose to obey govt. Some choice.

> If you choose to believe I'm making it all up, that's your choice.

Then maybe I own a fortune 500 company. Since no proof needs to be given, it could be. All we know is you talk like a typical ultra leftist who wants govt handouts for many. While I'm in favor of very limited govt assistance for those in dire straights, and some reasonable regulation is needed, what you propose is neither needed nor reasonable. You would drive what businesses we still do have off shore just like obumbles policies that you keep defending.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22102445 - 08/17/15 11:35 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:


Then maybe I own a fortune 500 company. Since no proof needs to be given, it could be. All we know is you talk like a typical ultra leftist who wants govt handouts for many. While I'm in favor of very limited govt assistance for those in dire straights, and some reasonable regulation is needed, what you propose is neither needed nor reasonable. You would drive what businesses we still do have off shore just like obumbles policies that you keep defending.




You've gone off the rails, S.  I"m obviously not an ultra leftist and would bet serious money I'm more fiscally conservative than you on a lot of issues, taxes, military spending and foreign aid for example.  Giving corporations different tax structures to choose from is actually more flexible, not less.  If they prefer the current structure, they keep it, no harm no foul.  If they want to pay even less taxes, they have that option too.  I'd take away all tax free status from churches, unions, non-profits and give them all the same options. 

There's not a single Obama fiscal policy I've defended and have been more critical than anyone in a specific way of his economic policies and results.  So, you're full of shit.  Hey, if you want to be a dick, go for it, it's the anonymous internet ... but you and I both know I haven't defended a single Obama economic policy and I disagree with most of them which I've been very specific about. 

As a business owner, I would have LOVED some more tax options to choose from in terms of what works best for my business.  I guess you're against flexibility and competing tax schemes to see which works best?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22102465 - 08/17/15 11:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>Giving corporations different tax structures to choose from is actually more flexible, not less

You actually think dropping the max tax from 35% down to 5% is just being flexible? This kind of talk is what makes people think you are a little nuts.

>I"m obviously not an ultra leftist and would bet serious money I'm more fiscally conservative than you on a lot of issues, taxes, military spending and foreign aid for example.

Obviously huh? I'm against military spending on obumble's wars, most foreign aid and a lot of things.

>Hey, if you want to be a dick, go for it, it's the anonymous internet

Says the guy who started off today calling me a psychopath. If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen cause i'll give it right back to you. You have your good days and then days you seem to have drunk the whole bottle of left wing hooch.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22102498 - 08/17/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>Giving corporations different tax structures to choose from is actually more flexible, not less

You actually think dropping the max tax from 35% down to 5% is just being flexible? This kind of talk is what makes people think you are a little nuts.

=====
This tax structure would put much more spending power in the consumer's hands which would stimulate the economy, it would lower dependence on government programs as incomes rise and it would generate more income tax revenues as well.  Very few, if any companies actually pay 35% and many huge ones already pay less than 10% when it's really totaled up and you should know that if you are telling the truth that you owned a business.

>Hey, if you want to be a dick, go for it, it's the anonymous internet

Says the guy who started off today calling me a psychopath. If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen cause i'll give it right back to you. You have your good days and then days you seem to have drunk the whole bottle of left wing hooch.

===
LMAO ... Well, you do tend to embrace psychopathic thinking on some issues.  And yet, you can't find a single Obama economic policy I've defended or even agree with (hint, there are none) and I could name 15 that I've been specific about that I oppose.  In other words, you're pretty much full of shit.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22102532 - 08/17/15 12:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Very few, if any companies actually pay 35% and many huge ones already pay less than 10% when it's really totaled up and you should know that if you are telling the truth that you owned a business.






--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22102591 - 08/17/15 12:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Very few, if any companies actually pay 35% and many huge ones already pay less than 10% when it's really totaled up and you should know that if you are telling the truth that you owned a business.









Careful, Stonehenge will accuse you of being a marxist, leftist, money grabbing, mooching, Obama loving, rich hating commie for pointing out the truth about Corporate Tax policy. 

For a lot of large companies. a real, honest 5% tax rate on everything they make with no way out would be a INCREASE in real taxes paid. 

Stonehenge may not have the wattage to figure that out, however.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22102603 - 08/17/15 12:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

oh, stoney's had me ignored for some time now :loldongs:


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Offlineqman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22102727 - 08/17/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The income and wealth inequality is structural in nature, trying to fix it with government policy isn't the best solution, but it might just happen.

Unfortunately, the capitalists only look at the next quarter instead of the next 10-20 years, they are going to ruin it for everyone.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22102997 - 08/17/15 02:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The income and wealth inequality is structural in nature, trying to fix it with government policy isn't the best solution, but it might just happen.

Unfortunately, the capitalists only look at the next quarter instead of the next 10-20 years, they are going to ruin it for everyone.




I agree with the second part of this, but I disagree with the first line. It is structural, and government is the structure. We have to change government to impose structural changes.

However, KO, I have heard your plan before, and one observation that I have about doing things that way is that corporations are legally obligated to do what is best for the shareholders, correct? This would make the tax 'option' no option. Depending on the size of the company, one way would save more money than the other, and they would be legally bound to go that route, due to their obligations to stockholders. I think it would generally work in favor of the workers for highly profitable large corporations, and things wouldn't change for smaller corporations.

Many of them don't pay a red cent in taxes as it is anyway though, so it may not have an impact, or it might just drive CEOs to look for more options to evade taxation altogether, so they could still pay themselves large sums of money.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22103068 - 08/17/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I see the guy who was whining about me talking rough to him after he started in is keeping it up. Nothing like a little hypocrisy, right ko?

>For a lot of large companies. a real, honest 5% tax rate on everything they make with no way out would be a INCREASE in real taxes paid.

Simply because they offshore their profits by merging with a company in a low tax country. They have other tricks too. Your hero obumble could have plugged up those loopholes but he has been silent on the issue because he is in the pockets of the same rich assholes you rant against. You obviously don't have the capacity to see that.

While lowering the corporate tax rate is a good idea, more or less a no brainer, simply dropping it to 5% as you foolishly suggest without plugging any loopholes means even more companies would pay zero tax, not less of them. Even if the min tax was 5%, that would mean less money coming in. Put down the bottle of commie rotgut and try to sober up.

Getting back to Bernie, the topic of this thread as many of you seem to have forgotten, his chances are shooting way up. Not a peep about hitlery's troubles in the paper today, if trump had been in some trouble it would be front page even a rumor of trouble. But the loony left media can't cover for the bitch much longer. If what we were told is true, obumble has decided to give her the knife rather than take a bribe to let her off.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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