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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22254846 - 09/18/15 07:29 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've heard a lot of horror stories about those old facilities. Not saying that our mental health care system now is great but I think a lot of the stigma we face when it comes to mental illness is in part due to how poorly we treated people with mental illness in the past.
Hopefully as we move into the age of psychedelic medicine and people get to directly see the impact of therapy coupled with MDMA attitudes towards mental health care will change. This is just around the corner by the way. Phase two clinical trials are starting all over in large part thanks to the efforts of the non-profit MAPS.
As far as tribalism goes I'd also argue that we've hit a technological evolutionary step that's quite capable of breaking down cultural and communication barriers. Just because something hasn't worked in the past doesn't mean we can't outgrow it.
Finally I'd argue that classism is the biggest barrier to socialism. As long as we have this worker/boss, poor/elite, dichotomy our democracy and social systems will suffer.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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qman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22255289 - 09/18/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I've heard a lot of horror stories about those old facilities. Not saying that our mental health care system now is great but I think a lot of the stigma we face when it comes to mental illness is in part due to how poorly we treated people with mental illness in the past.
Hopefully as we move into the age of psychedelic medicine and people get to directly see the impact of therapy coupled with MDMA attitudes towards mental health care will change. This is just around the corner by the way. Phase two clinical trials are starting all over in large part thanks to the efforts of the non-profit MAPS.
As far as tribalism goes I'd also argue that we've hit a technological evolutionary step that's quite capable of breaking down cultural and communication barriers. Just because something hasn't worked in the past doesn't mean we can't outgrow it.
Finally I'd argue that classism is the biggest barrier to socialism. As long as we have this worker/boss, poor/elite, dichotomy our democracy and social systems will suffer.
"we've hit a technological evolutionary step that's quite capable of breaking down cultural ...barriers"
That's pie in the sky hippy talk.
"classism is the biggest barrier to socialism"
Yet, in homogenous countries where classism certainly did and still does exist, the implementation of socialism was quite successful.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman] 1
#22255407 - 09/18/15 09:51 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I can talk to people on the other side of the globe instantly. We also have access to more information than we've ever had before. I think that's a big deal for communications and cultural understanding 
We have many socialist/capitalist economies working in Europe but have yet to see a fully socialist democratic society as far as I know. In countries with these hybrid economic systems class divisions are less pronounced. In Germany workers sit on the boards of large businesses. In Scandinavian countries the wealth gap is much smaller than it is here and union membership is very high.
The further a country moves away from capitalist models the stronger the democracy and the social systems.
I'll continue to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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qman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22255505 - 09/18/15 10:12 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I can talk to people on the other side of the globe instantly. We also have access to more information than we've ever had before. I think that's a big deal for communications and cultural understanding 
We have many socialist/capitalist economies working in Europe but have yet to see a fully socialist democratic society as far as I know. In countries with these hybrid economic systems class divisions are less pronounced. In Germany workers sit on the boards of large businesses. In Scandinavian countries the wealth gap is much smaller than it is here and union membership is very high.
The further a country moves away from capitalist models the stronger the democracy and the social systems.
I'll continue to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.
That's not what we're discussing, I already acknowledged that socialist works well in homogeneous European countries, it doesn't work in nations littered with "cultural diversity". There's no incentive to "socialize" other cultures within your country with wealth and income.
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Magenta
I care!!


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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
#22255554 - 09/18/15 10:22 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's fascinating to me to see people in this thread discussing the different policies of potential presidential candidates
The fascinating thing to me is the aspect of which of these people will actually get a chance to be a presidential nominee
You might as well just be discussing fairness in a sphere of the world where only the biggest lying assholes will be nominated and voted in
Do continue though. It will fascinate me to see such progress among people to discuss issues intelligently and problem solve policies that clearly no actual politician gives a shit about changing.
Honestly, if everyone was honest about their idea of world industry and implementing well thought out decisions as much as they've been discussed in this thread, we probably wouldn't need politics would we?
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Magenta
I care!!


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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
#22255556 - 09/18/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I can talk to people on the other side of the globe instantly. We also have access to more information than we've ever had before. I think that's a big deal for communications and cultural understanding 
We have many socialist/capitalist economies working in Europe but have yet to see a fully socialist democratic society as far as I know. In countries with these hybrid economic systems class divisions are less pronounced. In Germany workers sit on the boards of large businesses. In Scandinavian countries the wealth gap is much smaller than it is here and union membership is very high.
The further a country moves away from capitalist models the stronger the democracy and the social systems.
I'll continue to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.
That's not what we're discussing, I already acknowledged that socialist works well in homogeneous European countries, it doesn't work in nations littered with "cultural diversity". There's no incentive to "socialize" other cultures within your country with wealth and income.
Then don't vote for Trump
Or Hillary
Matter of fact who can you vote for?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
#22255818 - 09/18/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I can talk to people on the other side of the globe instantly. We also have access to more information than we've ever had before. I think that's a big deal for communications and cultural understanding 
We have many socialist/capitalist economies working in Europe but have yet to see a fully socialist democratic society as far as I know. In countries with these hybrid economic systems class divisions are less pronounced. In Germany workers sit on the boards of large businesses. In Scandinavian countries the wealth gap is much smaller than it is here and union membership is very high.
The further a country moves away from capitalist models the stronger the democracy and the social systems.
I'll continue to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.
That's not what we're discussing, I already acknowledged that socialist works well in homogeneous European countries, it doesn't work in nations littered with "cultural diversity". There's no incentive to "socialize" other cultures within your country with wealth and income.
I disagree on the lack of incentive. Desperate people and those without adequate health care, especially mental health care do desperate things. I also see compassion as an end in and of itself as well as a means of fostering cooperation. Which is possibly our greatest asset as a species.
I also disagree with your supposition that European countries are somehow more homogeneous than we are. 20% of Sweden's citizens are of a foreign background. Same with Germany. They also both support large immigrant populations that aren't included in the above statistics (especially Germany right now but I won't go into that as it's a developing case).
In comparison if we take white vs. minority in the U.S. as almost all of us come from foreign backgrounds we end up with a very similar percentage. 23% of our population is not white.
Now there is evidence that more homogenous cultures, such as Japan for instance, do better when it comes to inequality.
However to quote an article...
Quote:
This contrasts with most of Japan’s previous recorded history, when profound social and economic distinctions were maintained between Japan’s aristocracy and its commoners. Two periods of social upheaval in the modern era did much to soften these class divisions. The first was the push for modernization under the Meiji government at the end of the 19th century; the second was the period of Allied occupation after World War II. Among the most profound of the transformations that took place in the modern era was the empowerment of individuals rather than extended families and family lines as the fundamental units of society. As a result of this change, Japanese men and women experienced greater freedom in making personal decisions, such as choosing a spouse or career.
This sounds to me like it was more the end of classism and authoritarian power structures that helped them create a more egalitarian society. Homogeneity may have helped but it doesn't look like the only or even the primary factor.
The final point I'll make that is that homogeneity isn't a word that applies only to ethnic and cultural backgrounds. We can find homogeneity, or common ground, in other ways and create solidarity in spite of our differences.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter] 1
#22255859 - 09/18/15 11:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by paperbackwriter (09/18/15 11:54 AM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,866
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22256049 - 09/18/15 12:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
Quote:
The "kids for cash" scandal unfolded in 2008 over judicial kickbacks at the Luzerne County Court of Common Pleas in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. Two judges, President Judge Mark Ciavarella and Senior Judge Michael Conahan, were accused (and were eventually convicted) of accepting money from Robert Mericle, builder of two private, for-profit youth centers for the detention of juveniles, in return for contracting with the facilities and imposing harsh adjudications on juveniles brought before their courts to increase the number of residents in the centers.[1][2]
For example, Ciavarella adjudicated children to extended stays in youth centers for offenses as minimal as mocking a principal on Myspace, trespassing in a vacant building, or shoplifting DVDs from Wal-mart.[3] Ciavarella and Conahan pled guilty on February 13, 2009, pursuant to a plea agreement, to federal charges of honest services fraud and conspiracy to defraud the United States (failing to report income to the Internal Revenue Service, known as tax evasion) in connection with receiving $2.6 million in payments from managers at PA Child Care in Pittston Township and its sister company Western PA Child Care in Butler County.[4][5]
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
#22256252 - 09/18/15 01:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I can talk to people on the other side of the globe instantly. We also have access to more information than we've ever had before. I think that's a big deal for communications and cultural understanding 
We have many socialist/capitalist economies working in Europe but have yet to see a fully socialist democratic society as far as I know. In countries with these hybrid economic systems class divisions are less pronounced. In Germany workers sit on the boards of large businesses. In Scandinavian countries the wealth gap is much smaller than it is here and union membership is very high.
The further a country moves away from capitalist models the stronger the democracy and the social systems.
I'll continue to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.
That's not what we're discussing, I already acknowledged that socialist works well in homogeneous European countries, it doesn't work in nations littered with "cultural diversity". There's no incentive to "socialize" other cultures within your country with wealth and income.
You realize nations like Sweden and France and Germany have tons of immigrants, right? Just because their population is vaguely white, doesn't mean they're all Swedish or French or German.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22256262 - 09/18/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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The "socialism can only work in virtually all white societies" is about the most racist ignorant excuse I've heard for why socialism can't work in America.
Might as well cut the shit and just say "it's impossible because of all the lazy brown people we have."
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qman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22256746 - 09/18/15 03:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I can talk to people on the other side of the globe instantly. We also have access to more information than we've ever had before. I think that's a big deal for communications and cultural understanding 
We have many socialist/capitalist economies working in Europe but have yet to see a fully socialist democratic society as far as I know. In countries with these hybrid economic systems class divisions are less pronounced. In Germany workers sit on the boards of large businesses. In Scandinavian countries the wealth gap is much smaller than it is here and union membership is very high.
The further a country moves away from capitalist models the stronger the democracy and the social systems.
I'll continue to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.
That's not what we're discussing, I already acknowledged that socialist works well in homogeneous European countries, it doesn't work in nations littered with "cultural diversity". There's no incentive to "socialize" other cultures within your country with wealth and income.
You realize nations like Sweden and France and Germany have tons of immigrants, right? Just because their population is vaguely white, doesn't mean they're all Swedish or French or German.
Yes, just since the last 15 years immigration into Europe has exploded and it's not the good immigration, it's people from Northern Africa. Why do you think the European economies are going down the shitter? They can't support of bunch of unproductive leeches.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs




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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22256760 - 09/18/15 03:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I can talk to people on the other side of the globe instantly. We also have access to more information than we've ever had before. I think that's a big deal for communications and cultural understanding 
We have many socialist/capitalist economies working in Europe but have yet to see a fully socialist democratic society as far as I know. In countries with these hybrid economic systems class divisions are less pronounced. In Germany workers sit on the boards of large businesses. In Scandinavian countries the wealth gap is much smaller than it is here and union membership is very high.
The further a country moves away from capitalist models the stronger the democracy and the social systems.
I'll continue to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.
I would keep an eye on Cuba in the coming years.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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qman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22256761 - 09/18/15 03:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: The "socialism can only work in virtually all white societies" is about the most racist ignorant excuse I've heard for why socialism can't work in America.
Might as well cut the shit and just say "it's impossible because of all the lazy brown people we have." 
Please explain to everyone how bringing in a bunch of unproductive people from a different culture and language can benefit a European nation? It doesn't, it's a good way to destroy a good culture and a strong economy, mission accomplished!!
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman] 1
#22257218 - 09/18/15 05:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I can talk to people on the other side of the globe instantly. We also have access to more information than we've ever had before. I think that's a big deal for communications and cultural understanding 
We have many socialist/capitalist economies working in Europe but have yet to see a fully socialist democratic society as far as I know. In countries with these hybrid economic systems class divisions are less pronounced. In Germany workers sit on the boards of large businesses. In Scandinavian countries the wealth gap is much smaller than it is here and union membership is very high.
The further a country moves away from capitalist models the stronger the democracy and the social systems.
I'll continue to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.
That's not what we're discussing, I already acknowledged that socialist works well in homogeneous European countries, it doesn't work in nations littered with "cultural diversity". There's no incentive to "socialize" other cultures within your country with wealth and income.
You realize nations like Sweden and France and Germany have tons of immigrants, right? Just because their population is vaguely white, doesn't mean they're all Swedish or French or German.
Yes, just since the last 15 years immigration into Europe has exploded and it's not the good immigration, it's people from Northern Africa. Why do you think the European economies are going down the shitter? They can't support of bunch of unproductive leeches.
Because Wall Street caused a global financial meltdown?
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22257224 - 09/18/15 05:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Again, your argument boils down to "socialism is gonna fail because brown people."
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22257282 - 09/18/15 05:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I can talk to people on the other side of the globe instantly. We also have access to more information than we've ever had before. I think that's a big deal for communications and cultural understanding 
We have many socialist/capitalist economies working in Europe but have yet to see a fully socialist democratic society as far as I know. In countries with these hybrid economic systems class divisions are less pronounced. In Germany workers sit on the boards of large businesses. In Scandinavian countries the wealth gap is much smaller than it is here and union membership is very high.
The further a country moves away from capitalist models the stronger the democracy and the social systems.
I'll continue to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.
That's not what we're discussing, I already acknowledged that socialist works well in homogeneous European countries, it doesn't work in nations littered with "cultural diversity". There's no incentive to "socialize" other cultures within your country with wealth and income.
You realize nations like Sweden and France and Germany have tons of immigrants, right? Just because their population is vaguely white, doesn't mean they're all Swedish or French or German.
Yes, just since the last 15 years immigration into Europe has exploded and it's not the good immigration, it's people from Northern Africa. Why do you think the European economies are going down the shitter? They can't support of bunch of unproductive leeches.
Because Wall Street caused a global financial meltdown?
What does that have to do with the economic malaise that has infected Europe the past 15 years?
Their debt continues to explode higher, the current economic socialist model is not sustainable in its current form.
Wall Street is responsible for a lot of problems, but the current economic issues in the EU isn't one of them.
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22257293 - 09/18/15 06:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Again, your argument boils down to "socialism is gonna fail because brown people."
It wouldn't matter if they were purple, bringing in unproductive people from a foreign land that can't read or speak the native language is a disaster for any country.
Who feels good about having your tax money going to support people that invaded your homeland? No one, and then the resentment builds.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs




Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
#22257298 - 09/18/15 06:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Because Wall Street caused a global financial meltdown?
What does that have to do with the economic malaise that has infected Europe the past 15 years?
Their debt continues to explode higher, the current economic socialist model is not sustainable in its current form.
Wall Street is responsible for a lot of problems, but the current economic issues in the EU isn't one of them.
Immigration is not responsible for the current problems in the EU. They have the exact same problems that we had with the housing market bubbles, and banking speculation, which caused their economies to crash. I don't know how you can witness the exact same phenomena in two different regions of the world, and blame two separate causes.
The truth is, Capitalism has destroyed most of the world. The European countries which embraced Socialist principles, like Germany, didn't feel the effects of the global financial crisis on nearly the same scale as the more Capitalist countries, like America.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22257323 - 09/18/15 06:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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The EU countries having the most problems are the ones most reliant on tourism. This is directly related to the crash.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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