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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22098922 - 08/16/15 02:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
I'd love to see the CEO's pay package include an aspect that if the CEO of a publicly traded company wants to make more money, then he/she needs to figure out a way to pay everyone more money.  WIN/WIN ... When the CEO makes more money by paying everyone less and figuring out how to move jobs to the cheapest, near slave labor markets, everyone loses ... except the extreme wealth class.  This needs to change. 

Tie CEO pay to the performance of the wages of those he/she employs.  Would be a huge boost for company morale too.




I think if you saw all wages rise with CEO pay, one of two things would happen. Either all wages would go up, or the CEO pay would take a severe cut to keep wages low, because they're responsible to shareholders to make as much money as possible, and frittering it away to workers would get them fired.

I think the German solution, along with indexing CEO pay with workers pay, and killing free trade deals would create a prime atmosphere for economic prosperity. Shit, under those circumstancez, they can take away the minimum wage, for all I care.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22098945 - 08/16/15 02:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Do you people also bitch about entertainers and sports figures making ludicrous amounts of money? I don't recall anyone saying its a crime that they make tens and hundreds of millions of dollars a year and why not give it to the poor working people. All they do is play a game or play music, sing, etc. Which is of entertainment value. The ceo's run a huge business and put in perhaps 80 to 100 hours a week. No, you are only jealous of right wingers who make money.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22099012 - 08/16/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Do you people also bitch about entertainers and sports figures making ludicrous amounts of money? I don't recall anyone saying its a crime that they make tens and hundreds of millions of dollars a year and why not give it to the poor working people. All they do is play a game or play music, sing, etc. Which is of entertainment value. The ceo's run a huge business and put in perhaps 80 to 100 hours a week. No, you are only jealous of right wingers who make money.




First off, entertainers don't generally run multi billion dollar organizations and make decisions on the compensation of thousands and thousands of employees.  Having said that, I'd like the same standards applied to all legal entities in terms of tax incentives to voluntarily shrink the pay gap. 

CEO's of large corporations are pampered from morning till night.  They don't work 100 hours a week and much of the "work" they do is simply being  PR front person and attending a lot of high priced events.  There are the exceptions like Steve Jobs, Elan Musk and Mark Zuckerberg that actually play a huge role in creating the product and really driving the strategy, but most big company CEO's are PR front men playing financial engineering tricks to drive stock value and convert debt into dividends for shareholders.

One of the businesses I owned put me in a lot of corporate boardrooms and I saw first hand what really happens at the CEO level of these huge publicly traded corporations.  Most of them are so far out of touch with their customers, employees and products it's laughable.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22099019 - 08/16/15 02:41 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Do you people also bitch about entertainers and sports figures making ludicrous amounts of money? I don't recall anyone saying its a crime that they make tens and hundreds of millions of dollars a year and why not give it to the poor working people. All they do is play a game or play music, sing, etc. Which is of entertainment value. The ceo's run a huge business and put in perhaps 80 to 100 hours a week. No, you are only jealous of right wingers who make money.




CEO's make money by coercing the political system and using the working class. Entertainers make money directly related to their endeavors. I do have a problem with a guy on vine making 5 second videos for millions of dollars though. Literally 5-7 second videos... the system is broken.

I'm not jealous. The source of my discontent runs far deeper than such a primitive emotional response as jealousy.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22099184 - 08/16/15 03:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The ceo's run a huge business and put in perhaps 80 to 100 hours a week.

This is bullshit for the most part. CEOs spend as much time cultivating business on the golf course as thy do in the boardroom. That's not work. It's not even a sport, IMO.

1. So when the min wage is raised and a business closes shop, citing they can no longer afford to stay in business, why is that? Are they lying? Did they just get tired of running their own business and retire?


Get your facts straight.

Quote:

Between January and December of 2014, while Seatac’s business owners (and their customers) were absorbing the cost of paying minimum wage employees $15, unemployment decreased 17.46%, falling from 6.3% to 5.2%. It turns out that you CAN increase the minimum wage (even in large increments) and increase overall employment at the same time. ~Forbes




Quote:

The claim: Recent Seattle restaurant closures may have been linked to the city’s new $15 minimum wage.

What we found: False. ~Seattle Times




One of the few things Obama said that I agree with is that a person working full-time job should never fall below the poverty line.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22099215 - 08/16/15 03:39 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>First off, entertainers don't generally run multi billion dollar organizations and make decisions on the compensation of thousands and thousands of employees.

Ever heard of oprah or the rolling stones, the beatles, etc?

>Having said that, I'd like the same standards applied to all legal entities in terms of tax incentives to voluntarily shrink the pay gap.

So you want mick jagger to make less money and donate it to the stage hands, technicians and so on who make it possible? How very socialistic of you.

>CEO's of large corporations are pampered from morning till night.  They don't work 100 hours a week and much of the "work" they do is simply being  PR front person and attending a lot of high priced events.

Since you have never having been the ceo of a large corporation, I will take that with a huge grain of salt. I happen to know that upper management puts in long hours. They do not punch a time clock, when they get home, they take calls. If they don't and a big client gets away because the ceo didn't pamper them well enough, he has to answer to the board who ultimately sets his pay. They also don't take the whole weekend off generally. There may be exceptions but if they are on the golf course, which you seem to begrudge them, they are probably entertaining a potential business partner or a huge client.

If the ceo doesn't perform, he/she gets canned. We have seen that in the news a number of times, carly Fiorina just for example. Maybe she only put in 40 to 60 hours and didn't cut the mustard?

> most big company CEO's are PR front men playing financial engineering tricks to drive stock value and convert debt into dividends for shareholders.

That is part of their job too, agreed. However, they have to handle tons of day to day decisions, oversee others making important decisions. If a department fucks up and the ceo didn't know what was going on, he is in big big trouble. Its not an easy job, hence the high pay for top performers.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #22099757 - 08/16/15 06:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'll bet Orca and Bigbad's asses are so lily-white pure and that they are so morally incorruptible that if someone offered them 10 million to run a company they would refuse it and say '500k is enough, more than that is greedy...'

:lolsy:


You guys crack me up.  You are all only one step away from the land of Golden Unicorns sailing across rainbow colored skies...


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22099769 - 08/16/15 06:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I'll bet Orca and Bigbad's asses are so lily-white pure and that they are so morally incorruptible that if someone offered them 10 million to run a company they would refuse it and say '500k is enough, more than that is greedy...'

:lolsy:


You guys crack me up.  You are all only one step away from the land of Golden Unicorns sailing across rainbow colored skies...




LOL, good post. And I suppose if they won the lottery they would say 500k is enough?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #22099949 - 08/16/15 06:48 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I'll bet Orca and Bigbad's asses are so lily-white pure and that they are so morally incorruptible that if someone offered them 10 million to run a company they would refuse it and say '500k is enough, more than that is greedy...'






Hey Dipshit, I've owned and sold 3 companies.  I know the score.  My most recent company had a policy that the highest paid person's (me) compensation was directly tied to the compensation of others.  It was a fantastic policy ... created really positive morale boosting energy, we all made a lot of money and my lowest paid employee made $60,000 a year. 

AS I said many times, I have no problem with people making a lot of money, but a super elite ultra wealth class is dangerous on many levels and more needs to be done to prevent this from happening.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22099951 - 08/16/15 06:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:

LOL, good post. And I suppose if they won the lottery they would say 500k is enough?




Only idiots play the lottery.  I choose to invest money instead of throw it away.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22099973 - 08/16/15 06:57 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I'll bet Orca and Bigbad's asses are so lily-white pure and that they are so morally incorruptible that if someone offered them 10 million to run a company they would refuse it and say '500k is enough, more than that is greedy...'

:lolsy:


You guys crack me up.  You are all only one step away from the land of Golden Unicorns sailing across rainbow colored skies...




It's not unheard of:
http://nypost.com/2015/04/16/ceo-cuts-his-pay-so-every-worker-can-earn-70k/

If you disagree with my stance, take one of your own. Ad Hominems are a worthless waste of energy.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22099991 - 08/16/15 07:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I'll bet Orca and Bigbad's asses are so lily-white pure and that they are so morally incorruptible that if someone offered them 10 million to run a company they would refuse it and say '500k is enough, more than that is greedy...'






Hey Dipshit, I've owned and sold 3 companies.  I know the score.  My most recent company had a policy that the highest paid person's (me) compensation was directly tied to the compensation of others.  It was a fantastic policy ... created really positive morale boosting energy, we all made a lot of money and my lowest paid employee made $60,000 a year. 

AS I said many times, I have no problem with people making a lot of money, but a super elite ultra wealth class is dangerous on many levels and more needs to be done to prevent this from happening.




It's dangerous to the economy as a whole. It's getting to the point where they may actually be hurting themselves.

Nick Hanauer (A venture capitalist billionaire) agrees with me:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (08/16/15 07:03 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22100001 - 08/16/15 07:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The guy who gave everyone 70k is wishing he hadn't done it. People who were making close to that are quitting since low level new people are getting the same.

ko
>Only idiots play the lottery.  I choose to invest money instead of throw it away.

Me too, that is the difference between people who will always be poor and those who will make it. Poor people spend money freely on shit they don't need. Every person who ever worked for me had, I think, a better newer car than I did and a better newer phone. But they are begging me for work.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22100016 - 08/16/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Nick Hanauer (A venture capitalist billionaire) agrees with me:





1,000 Thumbs Up for that video. That guy is 100% right.  The slogan that the wealthy are the job creators is 100% BULLSHIT and always has been.  Spending power creates jobs and the job "creators" are always scheming on how to keep labor costs low and hire as few people as possible.  This guy summed up perfectly shit I've been thinking about and talking about for over a decade. GREAT POST!


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #22100075 - 08/16/15 07:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting perspective on taxes and spending ...



--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22100112 - 08/16/15 07:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Nick Hanauer (A venture capitalist billionaire) agrees with me:





1,000 Thumbs Up for that video. That guy is 100% right.  The slogan that the wealthy are the job creators is 100% BULLSHIT and always has been.  Spending power creates jobs and the job "creators" are always scheming on how to keep labor costs low and hire as few people as possible.  This guy summed up perfectly shit I've been thinking about and talking about for over a decade. GREAT POST!




That is just a snippet of the full Ted talk. I love this guy, he's great.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22100114 - 08/16/15 07:37 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
The guy who gave everyone 70k is wishing he hadn't done it. People who were making close to that are quitting since low level new people are getting the same.




Firstly, I'd like to see evidence of your claim. Second, it doesn't detract in the slightest from my statement. It does happen! ;-)


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22100399 - 08/16/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
The guy who gave everyone 70k is wishing he hadn't done it. People who were making close to that are quitting since low level new people are getting the same.






Seriously, S, you have to be a psychopath to argue that it should be legal for a corporation to pay one employee 300 times as much as another ... In 100 years, our society will look back at these policies and consider them much the way we look back at slavery now and will view the people that stood up for and defended the uber wealth class as, frankly, the dumbest Americans that ever lived.

There's a middle ground.  We need to find it.  Nothing wrong with paying the CEO $500K to a couple million but when you start getting into the $30million+ zone as a reward for cutting labor costs and off shoring jobs, something is wrong.  If he wants to make more money then break away and start his own company and actually do something for a real customer instead of play financial tricks to juice the stock.  The research on CEO pay is crystal clear that there is almost no correlation at all between huge bonuses and long term performance of the company ... the reason they are paid so much is so that they will continue to push the system of globalism and obscene payouts through financial engineering to the ownership class that really could care less about anything more than quarterly returns.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22101894 - 08/17/15 08:46 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I see you are back to your moonbat ranting again.

>you have to be a psychopath to argue that it should be legal for a corporation to pay one employee 300 times as much as another

You want the govt to dictate how much people can be paid. Just like the commissars in old Russia, eh comrade? You have no problem with athletes and entertainers dictating huge salaries but business people, no. Like most of the moonbats you hate anyone in business who is successful.

>There's a middle ground.  We need to find it.

Instead of trying to keep down successful people, you should work on the source of your jealousy.

>The research on CEO pay is crystal clear that there is almost no correlation at all between huge bonuses and long term performance of the company

Then the board is not doing its job when they set ceo pay and bonuses. Shareholders should vote them out if that is the case. Wage controls as you propose have never worked. Not that I believe your unsupported statement about "research" no doubt done by some ultra left wing group of nutjobs and uni professors.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22101928 - 08/17/15 09:03 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:


Then the board is not doing its job when they set ceo pay and bonuses. Shareholders should vote them out if that is the case. Wage controls as you propose have never worked. Not that I believe your unsupported statement about "research" no doubt done by some ultra left wing group of nutjobs and uni professors.




I'm not suggesting wage controls.  What I'd do is offer a corporate tax option (I said option a corporation could freely choose) that would drop the corporate tax rate down to 5% for any company that FREELY CHOOSES to reduce the pay gap from top to bottom to no more than 25X.  A formula would be produced to convert off shored and outsourced jobs to keep it all honest.  If the company doesn't want and wants a 300X pay gap situation, they pay a higher corporate tax.

There's a big difference between USSR Communism and wage controls than a more reasonable sharing of corporate profits.  Guys like you that see things in black and white rarely see thing clearly.  Great solutions are rarely at the extreme end.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

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