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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22130428 - 08/23/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think education is being done in the best possible way and I hear you on unions making it hard to fire teachers.  I also know teachers aren't paid well for the hours they work.  Especially when it comes to pre-higher education.  Many of them take work home with them.  Many spend their own money on supplies for their classrooms.  This is again just early education.

When it comes to state run Universities, Walker cut funding that resulted in 300 professors taking severance at a school that primarily teaches nursing.  The program was already very difficult to get into.  This is a growing field and the last thing we should be doing is cutting funding if we want to see the WI economy grow in a meaningful way.  *edit excuse me that's 325 teachers and staff members, the layoffs haven't happened yet but the school is planning it, and this is just one university amongst many*

And I'm sure we could get more bang for our buck with well thought out education reform.  I don't think Trump and Walkers strategy of cutting funding is the way to go though.  I'd much rather we look at what's successful in other countries and adopt their strategies.  Something funding the Department of Education would be good for.

As far as Bernie goes, he's for immigration reform.  His stance is somewhere in the middle of Obama and Trump.  He's voted for allowing parents of U.S. citizens citizenship but he's also shot down other bills because they would hurt U.S. workers.

Here's his comment on the bill he voted against in spite of its strong democratic support.

Quote:

“What concerns me are provisions in the bill that would bring low-wage workers into this country in order to depress the already declining wages of American workers,” Sanders said in May 2007. “With poverty increasing and the middle-class shrinking, we must not force American workers into even more economic distress.”




*another edit*

And here's an article talking about the school model in Finland.  Basically they make teaching fun and don't force the kids to do a lot of homework.  They take lots of breaks and generally just have a very relaxed attitude towards education.  They have one of the highest ranked education systems in the world.  None of it is privatized.

Yes, countries that use private systems and lots of cramming do well too.  But which school would you prefer to have your kids in?  One that gives them lots of stress or one where they get to actually enjoy going to?  Which would you prefer if the result was nearly equal?

I know which Trump prefers.  But he also thinks stress is good for families and has obviously never had someone close to him take their own life.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (08/23/15 11:25 AM)


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Onlineqman
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22130503 - 08/23/15 11:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I didn't say I want an open border and you know I support trade tariffs Stoney.  I do find the doublethink with 'free markets' on the right amusing though.

Saying immigrants are mostly murderers and rapists, and I'm sure there's good ones too (notice this is an afterthought)...  that's what I have a problem with.  It's tapping into the same mindset Hitler did in Germany and yes I find that disconcerting.

Building a wall and having Mexico pay for it isn't a realistic plan either.  Nor is deporting everyone.  Not without some way to finance it and 'make Mexico pay for it' is a bunch of bullshit.  I imagine the taxpayer would pay for it and Trump's own business would build it.  This reminds me of a lot of the shit Bush/Cheney pulled with Halliburton contracts.

Here's a direct quote on Trump when it comes to education.

Quote:

Department of Education: "You could cut that way, way, way down." -- South Carolina Tea Party Convention, Myrtle Beach, January 2015




His idea for making education better is to put in the private sector and bust up teacher's unions.  He also speaks at length about the dumbing down of our kids yet opposes Common Core (the federal program designed to address this).

Basically it sounds like he wants to do nationally what Walker has done locally in WI.  Strategies that have led to already underfunded schools offering early severance packages to many of their professors.




The deportation of illegals pays for itself, you do recognize they are a huge drain on the entire system?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: qman]
    #22130570 - 08/23/15 11:51 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

According to a study done by FAIR and from what I could find on the estimated cost of deportation you seem to be correct.

However that study has some flaws in it.

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/statistical-hot-air-fair%E2%80%99s-usa-report-lacks-credibility

https://cei.org/sites/default/files/Alex%20Nowrasteh%20-%20WebMemo%20-%20A%20FAIR%20Criticism.pdf


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (08/23/15 11:57 AM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22130746 - 08/23/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Simply changing policies will reverse the inflow and we will see lots of voluntary deportations that cost us nothing. Toss the parents and the anchor brats will go too.

As for education, I don't know why you dragged walker into it and try to say he and trump blah blah. No one is for walker except zappa and he is a well known luddite. You leftists are desperate for an argument that supports your views but I hear a lot of "I think that..." and "probably trump will..." and so on.

Bernie sounds like a great second choice, put him against trump and its win win instead of the usual lose lose proposition we seem to get. You are about the only one who think bitchlary would make a good president. Those who have looked into it disagree.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22130786 - 08/23/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Trump has some stances that I really find scary

Explain.

Hitlery is the worst of the worst.




Aside from Jebb, Hillary is probably the #1 person I dont want in office. Then again, there are many Republicans I don't want... but Hillary is garaunteed corruption. Modt of them are judt garaunteed poor policy. I mean, obviously Chris Christie is just as corrupt, and Marco Rubio would be a terrible president. In fact... where do these shitty choices even come from.

I wish I could at least be torn between two candidates. There's only one I even find acceptible, and its not just his policies, its his character. Bernie has stood by everything he stands for for 40 years. He's he longest serving independent in US history. He's the only candidate not backed by a billionaire. He has the integrity to stay on the issues and not use attack ads or bad mouth anyone!

I wish someone else had his strong history.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22130814 - 08/23/15 12:48 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Demand is what drives immigration more than anything.  Yes building a wall would work as a deterrent.  So will cracking down on employers (such as Trump) that employ illegal immigrants.

I drag Walker into the education debate because Trump's platform is similar to what Walker has been doing in WI.  I'm not suggesting Walker will win.  I'm suggesting that when it comes to education it really doesn't matter which of the two is in the White House.  Aside from the fact that I think Trump is mostly full of hot air.

And yes, I do like to use I think.  It separates my opinion from facts.  Facts such as those I just posted that shows that FAIR's analysis of the economics of illegal immigrants was very liberal with the costs and very conservative with the benefits.

And no, I don't think Hillary will make a good president.  I merely think Trump will be a lot worse.  There's that word again...  well maybe he'll win and prove me wrong.  Again, just an opinion.  But please don't put words in my mouth or conflate my position when it comes to Hillary.

And as BBW said, the only candidate with an ounce of integrity is Bernie.  Trump panders.  Hillary panders.  One panders to the right and one to the left.  I happen to be on the left.  :shrug:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22130841 - 08/23/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
He has the integrity to stay on the issues and not use attack ads or bad mouth anyone!




I quite enjoyed him going off on a reporter that tried to bait him into attacking Hillary.



--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22130856 - 08/23/15 01:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I know, I love it. Unfortunately I cant watch videos on my tablet.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22130990 - 08/23/15 01:44 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Save up, wooofy, and some day you will be able to afford a proper computer.

Bernie is an independent, so how is he running for the dem nomination? I thought you had to be a member of the party to run for it? There was another independent, lieberman but he was no good.

Trump is the only one with enough integrity to tackle the tough issues. They rest just make mealy mouth statements.

How about a trump/sanders ticket? Would any of you bats vote for that?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22131037 - 08/23/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Rand's dad ran as a republican a few cycles ago.  He's was still a libertarian though.  It all comes down to the primaries.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22131072 - 08/23/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Education is and should be a state and local issue.  If there is a role for the Federal Government, it should be pretty simple ... to have a team travel to the best schools and capture the best practices and make those available to the states if they want to take advantage of them.  I think there might be an opportunity for the Federal Government to create maybe 4-5 regional teacher training academies that are "top gun" type training facilities where states can send teachers and principals to learn from the best of the best, but make it intensive training to LEARN HOW TO TEACH. 

If states don't want to take advantage of it, then leave them alone.  But if the academies are so good and the training so valuable, they will and excellence will spread organically.  A giant federal bureaucracy that spreads education money to the states, though, is a waste and has clearly  not worked over the last few decades.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22131091 - 08/23/15 02:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The counter to that argument is that higher education often happens out of state.  Without standardized education programs a kid from one state may start college much less educated than a kid from another.

This is exactly what Common Core is trying to address, in addition to our lagging education in comparison to other countries.

I believe the government is using incentives to promote common core rather than forcing the issue on states, much like Obamacare funding.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22131143 - 08/23/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The counter to that argument is that higher education often happens out of state.  Without standardized education programs a kid from one state may start college much less educated than a kid from another.

This is exactly what Common Core is trying to address, in addition to our lagging education in comparison to other countries.

I believe the government is using incentives to promote common core rather than forcing the issue on states, much like Obamacare funding.




It seems unrealistic to me that a bureau in WDC is gong to be able to do much about education from the standpoint of trying to manage the states or dole our incentive based funding.  Education is an intensely local issue.  It's about parents, teachers and principals really working together. 

My experience with the public education system is that Teachers need A LOT MORE training.  A relatively small percentage of them have mastered the art of teaching.  That's the problem.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22131201 - 08/23/15 02:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Education is and should be a state and local issue.  If there is a role for the Federal Government, it should be pretty simple ... to have a team travel to the best schools and capture the best practices and make those available to the states if they want to take advantage of them.  I think there might be an opportunity for the Federal Government to create maybe 4-5 regional teacher training academies that are "top gun" type training facilities where states can send teachers and principals to learn from the best of the best, but make it intensive training to LEARN HOW TO TEACH. 

If states don't want to take advantage of it, then leave them alone.  But if the academies are so good and the training so valuable, they will and excellence will spread organically.  A giant federal bureaucracy that spreads education money to the states, though, is a waste and has clearly  not worked over the last few decades.




I like this approach, honestly. My only concern is allowing states like Kansas and Texas to be in charge of education. They'll start teaching Bible classes in Texas, and Kansas will get rid of schooling altogether!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22131211 - 08/23/15 02:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Save up, wooofy, and some day you will be able to afford a proper computer.

Bernie is an independent, so how is he running for the dem nomination? I thought you had to be a member of the party to run for it? There was another independent, lieberman but he was no good.

Trump is the only one with enough integrity to tackle the tough issues. They rest just make mealy mouth statements.

How about a trump/sanders ticket? Would any of you bats vote for that?




I have a computer, but my gf was using it, and I generally just use my tablet. I love this thing.

Maybe if I keep making bets with you I'll be able to afford a new laptop though ;-)

As has been stated a thousand times before, Bernie is running as a Democrat, because he gets more exposure, and he will be in the debates, and more importantly, he will be on the ballot in all 50 states. If he were running as an independent, he would literally have 0 chance of winning the election.

Trump on the other hand could run as an independent, because he can afford to build the independent party infrastructure necessary to get on the ballots in all 50 states, and he could afford to advertise on his own, without all of the debates or media exposure.

Bernie is the longest serving Independent in US history. Look it up. Before him there hadn't even been an independent in congress for 40 years.

Not only that, but he has more than 70% approval rating in his home state, when congress's approval rating is under 10%. That's pretty amazing.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22131240 - 08/23/15 02:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

You haven't won any bets yet, waffles

> My only concern is allowing states like Kansas and Texas to be in charge of education. They'll start teaching Bible classes in Texas, and Kansas will get rid of schooling altogether!

Typical left wing rant devoid of facts.

So Bernie is registered as an independent but running as a dem? Maybe he should run as gop and green too? I like seeing him rise in the polls and nasty cunt falling like a brick. Old billy is looking kind of skinny now days, isn't he? Aids perhaps from all those extramarital affairs?

A trump/sanders ticket sounds good as independent candidates. Trump by himself will be a disaster so if he and Bernie get stabbed in the back they might do that. That would coop both wings.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22131381 - 08/23/15 03:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

It won't happen.  Bernie can't stand Trump.

KO, how do you propose kids living in poor states have the same opportunities kids in rich states get without federal aid?  Or am I misunderstanding your position?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (08/23/15 03:32 PM)


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22131410 - 08/23/15 03:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

I like this approach, honestly. My only concern is allowing states like Kansas and Texas to be in charge of education. They'll start teaching Bible classes in Texas, and Kansas will get rid of schooling altogether!




What to do about all the nonsense that children are taught is perhaps one of the biggest challenges on the planet.  Freedom means the freedom to brainwash your kids into the same belief system you, as a child, were likely brainwashed into.  The afterlife salvation cults continue to spread the virus of their obedience training to the masses that prepares them to loyally push militant nationalism.  It's a real shame so many children on this planet are doomed to a life of limited real opportunity because their parents are hopelessly clueless.

No easy solution to that one.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22131478 - 08/23/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Trump is the only one with enough integrity to tackle the tough issues.

That's a laugh considering the self-described "greatest jobs president god ever created" employs thousands in Chinese factories making shit for him that if he had integrity would be made here. :ohwell:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22131494 - 08/23/15 03:54 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
It won't happen.  Bernie can't stand Trump.

KO, how do you propose kids living in poor states have the same opportunities kids in rich states get without federal aid?  Or am I misunderstanding your position?




I'm not convinced it's as much a poor state vs rich state question ... It has much more to do with parenting than anything else IMHO.  What to do for kids that have stupid, irresponsible, unengaged parents?  There are literally millions of examples of kids that come from poor areas that have great parents that get a great education and move on to succeed in life.  The real question is how to we get the stupidest people on the planet to stop having so many kids.  I think addiction is perhaps the biggest issue of our modern era.  Addiction to alcohol, disease causing foods, pain pills, entertainment, television, mood pills, social media, and many others.  We need to solve those problems so more ADULTS can live effective lives.  If we don't get some real solutions to obesity, substance addiction and infotainment obsession, then I don't really see how parenting is going to improve much.  The relentless corporate selling of "products" that literally kill the human spirit as a necessary component of freedom is something that ultimately is going to need to be looked at and re evaluated.

I still believe the quickest and most sustainable gains will come from better, more rigorous teacher and principal training.  If the Federal Government could create really good teaching academies that states could send teachers and principles to to get "Navy Seal" quality training, I believe it would make a much, much bigger impact than what they've been doing for decades.  Perhaps, for poor areas, the government could offer more financial assistance for teachers to attend programs at these academies.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Edited by KauaiOrca (08/23/15 04:02 PM)


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