|
KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22094228 - 08/15/15 09:50 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: I forgot to ask, how is the "planet" suffering from capitalism? I don't get it...
I said PREDATORY Capitalism. If you're going to quote me, at least quote me correctly, OK?
Read Adam Smith if you want to understand what real capitalism means which is actually a method of generating much fairer sharing of profits between labor and owners. We don't have that. We have Predatory Capitalism. Huge difference. Predatory capitalism is the maximum exploitation of cheap labor and resources done in collusion with political influence buying that funnels profits to finance campaigns to generate policy decisions that give advantages to the ownership class so they can "legally" exploit even more aggressively. That has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism.
You have homework to do. After you've read some Adam Smith, then we can have an intelligent discussion on this topic.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
|
KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22094267 - 08/15/15 09:59 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
1. So when the min wage is raised and a business closes shop, citing they can no longer afford to stay in business, why is that? Are they lying? Did they just get tired of running their own business and retire?
2. Whatever, hate the rich all you want, no poor fucker ever gave anybody a job...
3. I'm not sure why a fry cook in a chain restaurant should make as much as the guy running a chain of hundreds of them... Please explain that one too if you will...
4. How "hard" a job is? Talent, skill, all these are factors, not just the physical demands...
5. Who SHOULD decide a fair wage?
6. Regulation is an expense, whenever you increase operating costs on a business, that's less money they have to reinvest into their business, hire new people, buy new equipment, expand, etc...
1. Businesses nearly always close because of poor management, inability to innovate and generate a competitive advantage because of quality, pricing and/or service. Making a shitty product with cheap labor is risky.
2.I don't hate the rich. I've owned three businesses, made a lot of money and am financially independent now. I don't think that it's healthy in our world to have SUPER rich that own nearly all the assets on the planet. One human controlling billions in personal wealth is not healthy, IMHO. There's a big difference between having say 10 million in wealth vs. 20 Billion, all parked in various tax evading accounts around the globe.
3. Why should a policeman or fireman that risks his life every day be paid $60,000 a year and a CEO that is pampered with servants from dawn to dusk make 30 million? It's utterly ridiculous and an obvious systemic payoff to keep the big bucks flowing to the ownership class. Why should the young single mom that answers the tough customer service calls created by stupid CEO decisions make $12 an hour while that CEO makes $2,000 an hour?
4. I could list 50 jobs that require more talent, courage, smarts and sheer effort that pay far less than $100K a year than what is essentially a front man PR role that most CEO's of huge publicly traded corporations have. Pay a CEO $500K a year ... that's fine. But $30million? Give me a fucking break.
5. Labor should have an equal voice in the boardroom which is exactly what happens in Germany who has an extremely vigorous economy and very competitive companies with nowhere near the wage gaps you see in the US.
6. Regulation, or laws, is how civilization is created. If you want to live without regulation, move to Somalia. Corporations, BTW, create many regulations to manage their employees. Why do they do this? Why have any rules at all in a corporation if they're bad? The rules we have to follow at work are far, far more onerous than what our government gives us. Your statement on this is total and complete horseshit.
You don't know shit about this topic, just admit it.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
Edited by KauaiOrca (08/15/15 10:03 AM)
|
KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22094286 - 08/15/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Pretty much nailed it, once again. My man KO knows whatsup!
BBW - These guys are so full of shit they can't see out the windows. Anyone that argues that a guy at the top of a publicly traded corporations has the "right" to be paid $30million a year while he pays his workers in the US $9 an hour and schemes endlessly to send jobs to even cheaper labor markets to increase his own bonus is a fucking idiot. A CEO's pay should be in direct relation to the income of his labor force. If he wants to make more money, then he should figure out how to pay his employees more money. It's that simple.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22095576 - 08/15/15 04:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
- Increasing the minimum wage kills job and slows the economy - Lower the taxes on the wealthiest and they will create more jobs (LMAO!!!) - CEO's deserve to make 300 times more than other employees because they are so hard to find (LMFAO) - People are paid in accordance with how hard the job is (total horseshit as the hardest jobs often pay the least) - Capitalism is the fairest way to determine fair prices and wages - The US has Free Markets and when we regulate them, we screw them up
1. So when the min wage is raised and a business closes shop, citing they can no longer afford to stay in business, why is that? Are they lying? Did they just get tired of running their own business and retire?
2. Whatever, hate the rich all you want, no poor fucker ever gave anybody a job...
3. I'm not sure why a fry cook in a chain restaurant should make as much as the guy running a chain of hundreds of them... Please explain that one too if you will...
4. How "hard" a job is? Talent, skill, all these are factors, not just the physical demands...
5. Who SHOULD decide a fair wage?
6. Regulation is an expense, whenever you increase operating costs on a business, that's less money they have to reinvest into their business, hire new people, buy new equipment, expand, etc...
Good replies, hu. We have to counter the loony left propaganda. They keep telling us govt knows best, govt should regulate everything and so on.
I would say that lowering taxes on the rich will probably not create more jobs but having too high taxes will make them go elsewhere and take whatever jobs they create with them. CEO's deserve whatever they can con the board of directors into paying them. Do people bitch and whine that rock singers make 500 times as much as stage hands and demand equal pay? That is silly.
Pay is given according to what the market will bear. If you are in low level grunt work, you compete with all the other grunts and if they will work for min wage, that's all that will be paid. Of course capitalism is the best way to decide wages as I just explained.
>- The US has Free Markets and when we regulate them, we screw them up
Not all markets are free, there are monopolies right now or semi monopolies. You people's hero obumble keeps allowing mergers of giant companies despite the fact every time that happens, prices go up and quality and service go down. He is a liberal on the payroll of the rich folk so don't bitch at me about it. Some regulation is fine but govt has a tendency to grow and grow and never stop growing which means more and more regs, more and more stupid rules and that kills business.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
#22095660 - 08/15/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Good replies, hu. We have to counter the loony left propaganda. They keep telling us govt knows best, govt should regulate everything and so on.
I would say that lowering taxes on the rich will probably not create more jobs but having too high taxes will make them go elsewhere and take whatever jobs they create with them. CEO's deserve whatever they can con the board of directors into paying them. Do people bitch and whine that rock singers make 500 times as much as stage hands and demand equal pay? That is silly.
Pay is given according to what the market will bear. If you are in low level grunt work, you compete with all the other grunts and if they will work for min wage, that's all that will be paid. Of course capitalism is the best way to decide wages as I just explained.
>- The US has Free Markets and when we regulate them, we screw them up
Not all markets are free, there are monopolies right now or semi monopolies. You people's hero obumble keeps allowing mergers of giant companies despite the fact every time that happens, prices go up and quality and service go down. He is a liberal on the payroll of the rich folk so don't bitch at me about it. Some regulation is fine but govt has a tendency to grow and grow and never stop growing which means more and more regs, more and more stupid rules and that kills business.
Your party, S, the GOP that you keep carrying water for, held the White House for 20 of 28 years before Obama and had control of the House of Representatives from 1994-2006 (12 years) and then again since 2010. With all that control, government expanded exponentially, got bigger and bigger under Reagan, GHWB and GWB ... Reagan nearly tripled the national debt ... Spending exploded under GWB ... The only president to actually balance a budget in that time frame was Clinton.
Your party talks a great game on fiscal responsibility and then completely governs the opposite way which is why, at this point, they're untrustworthy. They're great with snappy slogans, but weak on execution.
BTW, Large corporations are a form of government. In fact, they are more restrictive in terms of imposing rules and regulations on employees than government is. Rules and regulations go with the territory. If you want clean water, air, soil, food and products that are reasonably safe with reasonable worker protections and an economy that the big corporations don't tear apart like a carcus, you need regulations.
Having said that, government does regulate too much and probably half of the laws in this country need reform or outright elimination.
S - You've been drinking the GOP Kool Aid for so long you can't even admit you're a party pusher.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22095806 - 08/15/15 05:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
KO, you are trying to get even with me for pointing out your obvious left wing and pro-dem bias. But I have never praised the gop, never said shrub, for example was a good president or that the gop have the right plan.
I have said many times that people should vote third party if they want to make a difference. Maybe that will jog your memory a bit?
I think both parties stink and the fighting they do is usually over turf. When they pretend to be against a bill yet it passes, it shows the lies they tell. I think your party, the dems are worse in many ways but I don't want the gop to gain too much control. Gridlock is our friend. The only gop I favor is trump because he is a new broom who may sweep clean. Bernie would be my second choice.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
#22095894 - 08/15/15 06:08 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Stonehenge said: KO, you are trying to get even with me for pointing out your obvious left wing and pro-dem bias. But I have never praised the gop, never said shrub, for example was a good president or that the gop have the right plan.
I have said many times that people should vote third party if they want to make a difference. Maybe that will jog your memory a bit?
I think both parties stink and the fighting they do is usually over turf. When they pretend to be against a bill yet it passes, it shows the lies they tell. I think your party, the dems are worse in many ways but I don't want the gop to gain too much control. Gridlock is our friend. The only gop I favor is trump because he is a new broom who may sweep clean. Bernie would be my second choice.
There's not a person that knows me well and my political background that would say I'm a democrat or a full blown liberal. Most would say I lean libertarian on most issues ... and I find the religious right absolutely repulsive as I find the far left that wants to tax everything and create more and more dependence. I've voted for democrats, republicans and libertarians and voted Gary Johnson in the last election. The neo-con influence on the GOP, I feel is the most dangerous element in American Politics and I just don't think we can afford another total fuck up like GWB. I've been more critical of Obama in a specific way than anyone on these threads and instead of calling him silly names I am very specific about what he's done that I don't like, more specific than you or anyone else for that matter.
Hey, if it yanks your chain to say over and over I'm an Obama pushing Democrat, then have at it ... anything goes on the anonymous internet, but it's far from true.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22095925 - 08/15/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
You sure are defensive about it. But saying you "know" a gop politician would send us off to war and a dem would not shows bias. The proof of that is obumble who is the most warlike president we have probably ever had.
I don't like the neo con pols, like graham, mccaine or Rubio. I agree with you on that and mccaine was probably as bad or possibly worse than obumble, though that would be hard to top (bottom?). Would mccaine have kept the Iraq war going? Who knows. Would he have had a hard on to invade Syria? Perhaps, but not even obumble with a compliant congress was able to push that one through. Would he have sent all those drones out murdering people basically at random if they look suspicious. No, bad as mccaine is, he probably would not have been as bad as obumble on those things. He could not have done a worse job on the economy and probably would have done much better but who knows?
I didn't like either of them. Trump I like not because he is gop but because he is saying what people want to talk about but the media doesn't let us. He talks about it anyway and damn the torpedoes. He might turn out to be a poor president but picking from mainstream d or r is a guarantee of a bad president. After trump and sanders, I do not have a third choice but my least favored one is bitchlary. Like the silly name? I do.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,872
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
#22096503 - 08/15/15 09:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 51 minutes
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22097508 - 08/16/15 04:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: 2.I don't hate the rich. I've owned three businesses, made a lot of money and am financially independent now. I don't think that it's healthy in our world to have SUPER rich that own nearly all the assets on the planet. One human controlling billions in personal wealth is not healthy, IMHO. There's a big difference between having say 10 million in wealth vs. 20 Billion, all parked in various tax evading accounts around the globe.
Why would anyone hate the rich? Can this really be boiled down to simple jealousy? HAH! As they say, don't hate the playa, hate the game! The system is broken, and on many levels, it was intentionally broken by that same Capitalism you speak of KO. This 'functional' form of Capitalism that Adam Smith spoke of leads to predatory Capitalism out of necessity.
Quote:
3. Why should a policeman or fireman that risks his life every day be paid $60,000 a year and a CEO that is pampered with servants from dawn to dusk make 30 million? It's utterly ridiculous and an obvious systemic payoff to keep the big bucks flowing to the ownership class. Why should the young single mom that answers the tough customer service calls created by stupid CEO decisions make $12 an hour while that CEO makes $2,000 an hour?
Check this out: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/04/06/how-much-ceos-earn-hourly/25353423/
The co-CEO's of Chipotle's make the equivalent of $13,000/hour (based on a 40 hour workweek). Their employees make an average of $9.15/hour. I guess they must be doing 1420 times the work every single hour, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
Quote:
4. I could list 50 jobs that require more talent, courage, smarts and sheer effort that pay far less than $100K a year than what is essentially a front man PR role that most CEO's of huge publicly traded corporations have. Pay a CEO $500K a year ... that's fine. But $30million? Give me a fucking break.
Then again, maybe they're not doing 1420 times the work! ;-)
Quote:
5. Labor should have an equal voice in the boardroom which is exactly what happens in Germany who has an extremely vigorous economy and very competitive companies with nowhere near the wage gaps you see in the US.
Union busting is at the core of predatory capitalism. People bring up the Nazi's in gun control arguments all the time, but they never talk about Hitlers hardcore union busting. Unions give workers power.
It's funny too, because you always hear people saying that 'if workers had a say in their wages, they'd just raise them til the company went bankrupt', which has rarely been the case, however we see CEO's giving themselves multimillion dollar bonuses, even when their companies were failing in the recession. Who's the irresponsible party here?
Quote:
6. Regulation, or laws, is how civilization is created. If you want to live without regulation, move to Somalia. Corporations, BTW, create many regulations to manage their employees. Why do they do this? Why have any rules at all in a corporation if they're bad? The rules we have to follow at work are far, far more onerous than what our government gives us. Your statement on this is total and complete horseshit.
I don't know if you realize it KO, but that line there is straight out of the Socialist handbook, buddy ;-)
You can't have democracy if you must submit yourself to a private dictatorship every day. This is why modern day 'socialists' advocate worker cooperatives so much. If you want to maintain democracy, you must practice it daily.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 51 minutes
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22097518 - 08/16/15 04:17 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Pretty much nailed it, once again. My man KO knows whatsup!
BBW - These guys are so full of shit they can't see out the windows. Anyone that argues that a guy at the top of a publicly traded corporations has the "right" to be paid $30million a year while he pays his workers in the US $9 an hour and schemes endlessly to send jobs to even cheaper labor markets to increase his own bonus is a fucking idiot. A CEO's pay should be in direct relation to the income of his labor force. If he wants to make more money, then he should figure out how to pay his employees more money. It's that simple.
Now there's a novel idea. I like it. I think CEO's have every right to do what they do. At least under the current laws we have, sure, and why shouldn't they indulge their greedy little hearts out?
Workers need to stand up, take back the political process, and unionize. We need to take the power back. Only then will it be 'wrong' to take these payouts.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22097952 - 08/16/15 08:41 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
I don't know if you realize it KO, but that line there is straight out of the Socialist handbook, buddy ;-)
You can't have democracy if you must submit yourself to a private dictatorship every day. This is why modern day 'socialists' advocate worker cooperatives so much. If you want to maintain democracy, you must practice it daily.
Haha ... I try to think in terms of good ideas, practical ideas that would make things better vs. tags/labels like communism, socialism, capitalism, etc. I think those terms are often weaponized to include or exclude or attack or attract. They human species has reached a point in our history where we are truly in uncharted waters. Where communication is instantaneous all the time. Where information is available to nearly anyone with the interest and motivation to find and consume it. Where electro-sparko currency (money) travels around the world in an instant and is nothing more than electro digits on screens that I doubt anyone really understands. I read recently the derivatives market is now worth over 850 TRILLION dollars which is mind bending, to say the least.
The problem is a tiny, tiny fraction of people own/control most of this wealth and they seem determined to keep it that way and keep the masses as their own servant class. "We the people" are not demanding political leaders that will change this and the super rich, year after year, convince nitwiiiiits to vote against their own best interests. The posters on these threads are clear evidence of that.
Wealth, success, motivation, innovation, creativity ... almost everyone agrees these are great ... but SUPER WEALTH in the area of a single human controlling 10 Billion Dollars? That's just ridiculous. We need a much bigger middle class.
I think Unions are part of the solution but I'd also like to see our corporate laws changed so that Labor gets an equal seat in the boardroom as shareholders. 50/50. That would radically change decision making just as it has in Germany.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22098364 - 08/16/15 11:13 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
The only union we are supposed to need is the state, the govt. But, with humans tending toward accumulating wealth and power, corruption inevitably arises. Worker unions are not immune to that process and in fact are mostly corrupt as well. Hoffa was not an exception, he was just the most visible.
I think you guys have good intentions but have been wooed by the siren song of socialism and liberalism a bit too much. Agreed, that the far right is just as out of touch and wrong on many issues, we need to get away from those extremes and find common ground in the center.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
#22098466 - 08/16/15 11:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Stonehenge said: The only union we are supposed to need is the state, the govt. But, with humans tending toward accumulating wealth and power, corruption inevitably arises. Worker unions are not immune to that process and in fact are mostly corrupt as well. Hoffa was not an exception, he was just the most visible.
I think you guys have good intentions but have been wooed by the siren song of socialism and liberalism a bit too much. Agreed, that the far right is just as out of touch and wrong on many issues, we need to get away from those extremes and find common ground in the center.
The "state" has been taken over by large corporations and the wealth class in general. The legal advantages they enjoy are enormous and were never envisioned by the Founding Fathers. Most of the Founding Fathers were very suspicious of Corporations and wanted them, for the most part, outlawed. Corporations, at that time, had already infected the political process in England and they were aware of it and didn't want that virus to make it to the US. Unfortunately, they lacked the consensus to build lasting safeguards and our government has literally been purchased.
Adams wrote at length that he believed the main reason for the Revolutionary War was that the Bank of England was clamping down on the various local currencies that were in play in the colonies and were creating economic prosperity. These currencies were being sucked out and, to a large extent, the revolution was a big reaction to that ... The Bank of England was at the absolute epicenter of what sparked the war. They remembered this well in the following 20 years and, the distrust of corporations was definitely there, especially in the Jeffersonian wing of the the country's philosophical pinnings.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
|
WAN
Stranger
Registered: 10/20/14
Posts: 1,895
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22098787 - 08/16/15 01:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
qman said:
"in six months it would mostly be back right where it started, why?"
Please tell us.
LOL ... this is another one of those "quotes" that circulates around, that means virtually nothing in practical terms, that pushers of predatory capitalism mindlessly parrot. Here are a few more just for comic value:
- Increasing the minimum wage kills job and slows the economy - Lower the taxes on the wealthiest and they will create more jobs (LMAO!!!) - CEO's deserve to make 300 times more than other employees because they are so hard to find (LMFAO) - People are paid in accordance with how hard the job is (total horseshit as the hardest jobs often pay the least) - Capitalism is the fairest way to determine fair prices and wages - The US has Free Markets and when we regulate them, we screw them up
All conservative slogan BULLSHIT. Our planet is suffering from the extreme virus of predatory capitalism. We don't have free markets ... we have collusion between corporations and government. What we need on this planet is a much larger middle class and a dramatic shrinking of the assets controlled by the extreme wealth classes. Nothing would benefit this planet more.
orca I want to suck your cock
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22098792 - 08/16/15 01:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Lol, yeah, lots of unemployed who want free shit on the west coast...
Lol, yeah, lots of big banks want a free bailout when they make a bad bet then turn around and raise overdraft, checking, ATM, and other fees on the very people who funded their bailout. They're welcome. 
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
WAN
Stranger
Registered: 10/20/14
Posts: 1,895
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22098796 - 08/16/15 01:27 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
1. So when the min wage is raised and a business closes shop, citing they can no longer afford to stay in business, why is that? Are they lying? Did they just get tired of running their own business and retire?
1. Businesses nearly always close because of poor management, inability to innovate and generate a competitive advantage because of quality, pricing and/or service. Making a shitty product with cheap labor is risky.
I absolutely agree with the rest of your post, Orca. I just want to add something to this point that he raised. If a company cannot stay afloat without resorting to paying its employees meager wages, then maybe this company should not stay in business.
Edited by WAN (08/16/15 01:28 PM)
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 51 minutes
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Stonehenge]
#22098816 - 08/16/15 01:37 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Stonehenge said: The only union we are supposed to need is the state, the govt. But, with humans tending toward accumulating wealth and power, corruption inevitably arises. Worker unions are not immune to that process and in fact are mostly corrupt as well. Hoffa was not an exception, he was just the most visible.
I think you guys have good intentions but have been wooed by the siren song of socialism and liberalism a bit too much. Agreed, that the far right is just as out of touch and wrong on many issues, we need to get away from those extremes and find common ground in the center.
I agree with you, generally. I don't want Socialism like the USSR or something like that. I want a mixed economy that works for everyone. I feel like the right is more out of touch because of the tea party threatening to split their votes, and pulling them further right to encorporate all of their segmented party under one umbrella.
However, what KO is talking about, the German way of handling things, is a way to circumvent corrupt union bosses, while gaining some modicum of power for workers. Its working great for them also!
There are some liberal agendas that I dont agree with, like openning up he boarder, for instance. My state (WA) has a state funded grant program called WASFA, which gives the equivalent of a Pell Grant for college exclusively for undocumented immigrants. I couldn't even apply for it because I am a citizen. That is fucked up. I don't agree with things like that.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22098833 - 08/16/15 01:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I'd love to see the CEO's pay package include an aspect that if the CEO of a publicly traded company wants to make more money, then he/she needs to figure out a way to pay everyone more money. WIN/WIN ... When the CEO makes more money by paying everyone less and figuring out how to move jobs to the cheapest, near slave labor markets, everyone loses ... except the extreme wealth class. This needs to change.
Tie CEO pay to the performance of the wages of those he/she employs. Would be a huge boost for company morale too.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Bernie draws 28,000 in LA and the same in Portland! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22098902 - 08/16/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
>There are some liberal agendas that I dont agree with, like openning up he boarder, for instance. My state (WA) has a state funded grant program called WASFA, which gives the equivalent of a Pell Grant for college exclusively for undocumented immigrants. I couldn't even apply for it because I am a citizen. That is fucked up. I don't agree with things like that.
Good for you, that is ridiculous. In cali they give illegals a drivers license and then send them a ballot to vote even though they are not allowed. When the official ballot comes back, they do not check against a database of eligible voters, they just count it. Its the dem/obumble way.
> the German way of handling things, is a way to circumvent corrupt union bosses, while gaining some modicum of power for workers
I don't know much about that.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
|