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InvisibleSwami
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Signs and Omens
    #2208154 - 12/29/03 06:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

This is a spin-off thread in response to frog's comments about signs from God.

1. Many spiritual writings will tell you that there is "no better than here" and "you are right where you are supposed to be". If those statements have any validity at all then a "sign" that you are supposed to move in some specific direction doesn't make any sense as even the people that ignore the "signs" are in a perfect place.

2. The real problem with signs and omens is that you CAN READ WHATEVER YOU WANT TO in them. In the Castaneda book, a crow flies over Carlos' head. Don Juan tells his apprentice that that signifies "X". Later Carlos goes "Look! A crow just flew over and that must mean "X"". Don Juan laughs and says, "No, that just meant that a crow flew over." It is ALL a game.

Possible Scenario: A woman is walking down the street asking God if she should move to Montana or stay in New York. Just then a leaf falls from a maple tree and brushes her shoulder (it was in autumn - duh!). The woman has an epiphany that she should now "leave" New York.

The whole omen business is so arbitrary as to give no valid direction to the seeker; just something to hang their hat on because they are having difficulty making a decision.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Swami]
    #2208161 - 12/29/03 06:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, good, blame your fallacious arguments on me. Sigh.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Frog]
    #2208174 - 12/29/03 06:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It was inspiration for an interesting topic, *bows humbly to frog* not blame. I would be interested in how you see the mechanics of God speaking to you through events and such. Assuming this IS true, how can you be sure of your interpretation?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Swami]
    #2208199 - 12/29/03 06:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

But if the said lady does go 'leave' as a result of the falling leaf, was it not an omen for her? true it didn't have any effect in reality, but in her mind, it made the differance between being undecided, and making a choice.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Swami]
    #2208339 - 12/29/03 08:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You don't know that, Swami>

Omens exist, everyday...
You have to be able to "see" first...


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Swami]
    #2208358 - 12/29/03 08:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

We'd have to debunk the entire bible, wouldn't we?

I have read/studied the bible my whole life. God says "ask and you shall receive". He says "if I would clothe the lilies of the field, if I would feed the birds of the heaven, what wouldn't I do for you whom I created in my image". (Something like that.)

So, then I look at things like what Edgar Cayce wrote. He was one of the greatest psychics of his times. He wrote about the spirit world. There is a different dimension that we cannot see. I mean, assuming there is a heaven, is it in the clouds, like we believed when we little boys and girls? I don't think so. There must be a different dimension.

If people reincarnate, if there are spirits, if there is a God willing to help us, it would make sense then that the spirits are helping us in God's name.

I have no proof other than the bible, edgar casey, and my own examples, of which I have many, but which I also know Swami could say "that could have happened regardless of God and Spirits!" You may be right, but I don't believe you.,


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Swami]
    #2208432 - 12/29/03 09:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I would be interested in how you see the mechanics of God speaking to you through events and such. Assuming this IS true, how can you be sure of your interpretation?




Well, some people see their everyday waking environment as a constantly changing tarot card spread. I dont personally practice or endorse this interseting way to interpret events, but I do recognize cues and signs when i see them.

How can I be sure of my interpretation? The same way you are sure that the guy with shifty eyes in the movie you're watching is evil when they play the scary music to go with it. Interpreting fiction, I have found, is a marvelously applicable tool in real life. Especially if you deal with a lot of women.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Frog]
    #2208501 - 12/29/03 09:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

If God sends omens to us to guide us on our earthly life, explain why 40,000 people were killed in an Iranian Earth Quake. If the lord has sent you signals for relatively trivial things, would he not have warned his children of a pending natural disaster? In such an urgent issue, I think subtle puns and sychronicities would not have been appropriate, maybe more like a godly voice on a megaphone, screaming "GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!"

Quote:

God says "ask and you shall receive".




"God, please kill one quarter of the population in the town of Ban."

Quote:

what wouldn't I do for you whom I created in my image




The lord works in mysterious ways, but it is always important to remember, everything happens for a reason. You see, the lord was trying to teach a lesson to the survivors of the quake. He was demonstrating his vengefulness and it was a plea to the muslim world to accept Jesus as their savior.

Quote:

if there is a God willing to help us, it would make sense then that the spirits are helping us in God's name.





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OfflineFrog
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2208516 - 12/29/03 09:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't have the answers yet for the world's woes, according to my philosophy. All I have are the things that have happened to me.

Okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to give one example of God taking care of me.

For a variety of reasons, I didn't have advertising running for my business for about 2 years. I ran out of business. In my line of work, you are dead if you have no advertising. I hadn't yet built up a big return clientele or referral base because I had only been in business for about 2 years when I lost my advertising.

I prayed about it, whether I should stay on my own or go get a job in a firm (blech). I got clients out of the blue. For instance, one day I went into a Starbucks, and there was a long line. The guy in front of me started talking with me, and we exchanged business cards.

I arrived back in my office to find an extra set of car keys in my hand. It was hot, it was a long drive, and I had work to do, but I drove back to that Starbucks. He was still there, of course, and I gave him back his keys. (Really coincidental, they looked just like mine. They had a leather tab with a little silver cross on them.)

A few weeks later, he referred a client to me, and that client ended up having 2 cases. A few weeks after that, the original guy ended up needing me for a criminal matter.

I had other work come up, too, with other attorneys, or just out of the blue. It was a sign that God didn't want me to work for a firm, but to stay on my own.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Frog]
    #2208533 - 12/29/03 10:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

see swami's null hypothesis...

Can you accept that it was a possible coincidence?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2208560 - 12/29/03 10:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

No, because other things like that happen to me.

Another time, I went into the pharmacy to get a prescription that I had dropped off two days before. It wasn't ready. At first, I was going to be irritated. But then I remembered that these things had been happening for a while, and it was time to start putting it into practice, that there was a reason for things to happen.

So, I walked around the store, waiting to see what it was that I was supposed to find. I went down an aisle that had a small assortment of computer ink, and just happened to have my brand. I forgot that I was going to run out of ink, and had a big paper due to be filed the next morning. See?

Law school? Looking back, I had to realize that it was God that wanted me to be a lawyer. When I was 16, I was in a mock trial (sign #1) and I decided to be a lawyer, but I ended up dropping out of high school.

But then some guy came out from Texas and worked at the restaurant where I was working. I fell in love with him. He had come to CA to go to school to be a lawyer. So we decided to start school together. (Sign #2)

When I finished undergraduate work, I decided not to go to law school right away because I was intimidated by it. I went into a paralegal program. Three-quarters through it, I was feeling intimidated about getting a job, and then I discovered my landlord was married to a lawyer. (Sign #3) I called him and asked for an internship position, which he gave me, and a few months later he encouraged me to go to law school. (Sign #4)

But I needed $916 to pay off a school bill or they wouldn't give me transcripts to get into law school. A lady for whom I cleaned house loaned me the money and I cleaned her house for a year and a half to pay it back. (Sign #5)

Don't make me have to bore you with more schitt like this.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Frog]
    #2208591 - 12/29/03 10:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

*sigh*

What, are y'all waiting for Swami to come back and thump me???  :rolleyes: :eyemouth:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Frog]
    #2208597 - 12/29/03 10:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

They are no signs nor does god speak through people, everything has to do with the human mind. The way people view the world is through a sub-jective way.
Which means that they place there own meaning on things.

Also the sub-concious is a powerfull thing it can make you do thing withou even knowing it. You could sub-conciously need to buy something and your own mind without you realising it,  sets things up for you to buy the item even if you forgot you needed it.

And finaly crazy people think that the music on the radio is about them or god has placed that tune on it for them. Also some people thing car Reg plates are some sort of sign telling them to do things. They are no signs only crazy people and jesus. :lol: only jokeing.


--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: EvilGir]
    #2208609 - 12/29/03 10:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, and Swami, sorry about my first response under your initial thread.  I was making a joke, but it "sounds" like I am flaming you, and I didn't mean to do that.  My apologies. 

JEZU!  You are so funny!  I mean, I see what you are saying about the subconscious, but I'm still going to believe what I believe.  Remember, I could bore you with stuff.  I'm somewhat psychic, too.

But the funny part was "there are no signs only crazy people and jesus".  LOL!!!  I know!  That's what worries me! 

I'm smart.  Well, what if I've "smarted" myself into being a crazy person?  Remember the guy in "A Beautiful Mind"?  He was schizophrenic, but really smart.  What if I'm just smart enough to make myself crazy?  I need to go sit down... :confused: 

Actually, this is why I've broken down and decided to share what I have been thinking about for the last couple of years.  Please, tell me how I'm crazy and tell me what reality REALLY is.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Swami]
    #2208610 - 12/29/03 10:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

oh god here we go again, didn't you have this argument about five times already. you believe there are no extraordinary meanings behind things. the spiritual people, that need reaffirmation by purpose, belive something is behind much of what takes place during their lives. is there any more to it than that?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2208619 - 12/29/03 11:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

TrueBrode, if you don't want to go at it again, DON'T! I don't mind going at it again. Wait, isn't this my first time on this forum going at it from this angle?

TrueBrode, find your sense of spirit and free will and join us!!!


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2208628 - 12/29/03 11:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I know what you mean about signs and stuff cos especialy after heavy Psychedlic drug use I kinda get weird things happening like stuff in dreams ect.

Even weird stuff like once i was looking for my comb but couldnt find it so i decided to try and think of something else to see if i could trick my mind. The first thing that cam in to my mind was my calculater for some reason. I didnt know where it was either so i went looking for it and within a minute i found them both together.

As for dreams i have seen the future but they are things that only relate to dreams after the event, but that could just be sub-jective viewing.

But everyone is intitled to their own point of view and whats wrong with being crazy anyway insanity is o n the border line of genius.


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Fighting the man the best way I can.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: Frog]
    #2208791 - 12/30/03 12:41 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The idea of an intervening God is absurd.

In my cowboy, shithole town of 1500 people, the Grocery Store gives out "The signs of the Times" magazine. In this scary publication, a woman once wrote a piece on miracles. She supplied the following anecdote (I'm paraphrasing it).

One day I was running late and decided to stop at a fast food place to get a bite to eat. After my meal, I went out to my car and it would not start. I went in to use the restaurants phone and could not get a hold of anybody, so went back out and tried again, but to no avail. I prayed to Good God Almighty. After I prayed I turned the ignition and it started. Yada Yada Yada the lord works in mysterious ways.

For someone to believe that the creator of the universe imposed his will on a motor vehicle because a fat fuckin' American prayed is just beyond me. Ignoring the logical explanations like the centrifugal switch in the motor windings jammed, and believing that God helped you when he allows 40,000 children to starve to death EACH DAY is almost sociopathic.

I believe that people who think God helps them in this way suffer from a severe misunderstanding of their religion. Life is a set of trials and tribulations, and the Lord's reward awaits people in the afterlife. God has no interest in eliminating MINOR grievances to make your life more comfortable nor does he guide you to a career.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2208804 - 12/30/03 12:47 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

When I was young, I decided that God was much the same as a Scientist doing an experiment.

When you do an experiment...you don't attempt to change the parameters mid-experiment, or you will get fairly useless results. You set up your experiment and let it run to its conclusion.

I took this to mean that God would not interfere with the Universe, only watch it.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Signs and Omens [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2208818 - 12/30/03 12:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

For me to understand this, it took some reading of the book of Job, and bible studies on it, and hell, I still don't get it all the way, but here's the way I see it so far...

Job was a very rich man who loved God but who was ultimately severely afflicted with disease and lost everything he had. He was suffering in a major way.

Because Job was a God-fearing man, no one could understand why he was being so "punished". Job even finally called on God as to his dire circumstances.

God chastized Job, saying "who are you that I should make known my plan to you" or something like that. God was saying that Job was just a mere mortal man and God is God. God did go on to say that ultimately, all would be made known to us when we went to the big heaven in the sky.

But the thing that Job didn't know, which we know now, is that the devil had a bet going with God that if God allowed the devil to have his way with Job, Job would renounce God. God took the bet. God won.

What it proved to the devil is that people don't love God just because of all the good we have going in our lives. Those of us who love God love Him even when things get rough.

*Job didn't know how important his role was in this, and he played it the way God probably knew that he would. At least, he got a chapter in the bible out of it for the rest of us to use as a learning tool.

So who are we to say that just because it looks like God turned His back on starving children, He shouldn't help someone like me, a person in one of the wealthiest nations in the world? We don't understand the plan, or God's ways. But all will be revealed.

If anyone thinks I misstated the story about Job, or wants to add something I left out, please feel free.

*edited.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Edited by Frog (12/30/03 01:45 AM)


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