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Shroomslip
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Car help, won't start. (Solved)
#22079795 - 08/12/15 02:51 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I know there are a few knowledgeable people here which is why I'm asking here (I've asked elsewhere too, but I'm not getting much of a response).
2002 Mazda Protege5. Don't really have much to offer in the way of history, we just got it. Knew it needed work, we got it pretty cheap (nearly 1k less than what it was actually worth in it's condition, which is why we got it). It started (cold) and drove fine. Car wasn't bought from some shady person either. They got a new car, and didn't need this one anymore, it just happened by chance to come up in a conversation (and not because they brought it up).
Might be longer than needed, but I want to go through everything I did so there's a clear picture. Anyways.. Yesterday I went about working on it to figure out exactly what needed to be replaced (precat, o2 sensor or both) and the test involves starting the car and monitoring the o2 sensor. So I go to start it up after I get everything prepared, and the engine won't turn over. Seems like a dead battery (lights nearly go out when I turn the key). Test with multimeter, battery reads just above 10v, which I know means the battery is more or less dead as far as a car is concerned. Was kinda counting on the battery being bad, by the looks of it, it's obviously kinda old, and the car hadn't seen a lot of use for month or two. Bad batteries, pretty common, no big deal.
I take the battery to Autozone to have it tested, and they do, tell me it held the charge as it should and they don't see anything wrong with it. Cool, 100 less I have to spend. Get home and hook it back up (no I don't have it reversed) and go to start the car. It just endlessly turns over and never at any point seems like it's going to or is trying to start. No back firing or anything at all. Not the slightest catch. Only the starter motor is turn the engine.
Go Googling around and try a couple of things. My first assumption (which I still haven't entirely disproven) is that disconnecting the battery has fucked with the anti-theft system (which I don't know for sure we have, we have no key fob or anything) but I do what I read will disable it, which is unlocking driver door with the key. Doesn't work. I also read that sometimes the sensor for what gear you're in can fuck with it, so I start shifting between park and drive a few times, and try again. Still no dice.
The car has a precat problem (error code p0421, mentioned above) so it's entirely possible this has to do with the spark plugs, spark plug wires, or ignition coils. All of which will soon be replaced (coils and wires part of the order I just made on stuff I know needs to be replaced, plugs I can get when everything else is here).
While I'm waiting for everything to arrive, I'd like to see if I could figure out the issue of the starting. So what should I be looking for? I don't have a ODBII reader or much specialty diagnostic equipment. Why would it run just fine one day and then 2 days later not even try to start despite being able to turn over for 20-30 seconds?
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
Edited by Shroomslip (08/14/15 07:19 PM)
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pirate-blues


Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 13,656
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Shroomslip]
#22079797 - 08/12/15 02:56 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Okay let me preface this by saying I do not know shit, but I had somewhat similar problems with mine right up until my battery died(after a month of no use in the middle of winter) this year. It would kind of sputter, but never really start, and a friend told me to keep turning the key rapidly to the right - as in, not shutting it off or going too far left or what have you, but rapidly turning the key right. I guess it was the movement that made something switch on idk.
That trick never failed to start my hunk of shit right up until it was parked for a month in cold weather and wasn't turned on at all(my fault, I was commuting via train for a bit). It might be worth a try, and that's literally the only thing I can contribute to this thread before someone who actually knows something can help.
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Amanita86
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Registered: 09/26/12
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Shroomslip]
#22079798 - 08/12/15 02:56 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Just for clarification, did you swap the o2 sensor etc, or is the car "untouched" from the time it ran until now when it won't?
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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404
error


Registered: 08/20/10
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Shroomslip]
#22079801 - 08/12/15 02:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Your o2 sensors might need changing. still reading post.
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404
error


Registered: 08/20/10
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: 404]
#22079807 - 08/12/15 03:00 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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ok so if your battery is fine, then how is the alternator? starter could be an issue here i think as well.
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Shroomslip
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Amanita86]
#22079817 - 08/12/15 03:10 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Right now everything is untouched. Literally the only thing that has changed between when it would run and now is that the battery has been disconnected and charged and put back in. Everything else is exactly as we bought it. I just ordered the parts a couple hours ago.
Dunno how the alternator is. It started fine when we bought it so I didn't really see much reason to test it. Testing it is on my priority list as soon as I can get it running though.
Also for the record I have no reason to believe the ignition coils, spark plugs or wires are bad. I'm just replacing them because they are things people replace as part of general maintenance. I have no idea if or when they were ever replaced so I'm just doing it now. They're not that expensive, so not much reason not to.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
Edited by Shroomslip (08/12/15 03:19 AM)
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Arctic W. Fox

Registered: 09/23/14
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Shroomslip] 2
#22079826 - 08/12/15 03:18 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is it out of gas?
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Amanita86
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Shroomslip]
#22079827 - 08/12/15 03:18 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Alternators recharge your battery, so even if it was dead, your battery would still run everything until it died.
I'm not real up to date on the security system that would take effect if the battery is removed, but I'm thinking if something like that were to take effect it would be a total shut down, and your car wouldn't try and turn over. If it's trying to turn over, its not your starter.
In removing your battery, is there a chance you crossed wires and fucked up something there?.. do a fuse check. I'm thinking fuel delivery, or sparking problems.. air would be there I would think. I'd start looking into the spark or fuel delivery (you do have gas in the car right? )
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Amanita86
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Registered: 09/26/12
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Quote:
Arctic W. Fox said: Is it out of gas?
Dude that's fucking twice tonight!! Get out of my head!!
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Arctic W. Fox

Registered: 09/23/14
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Amanita86] 1
#22079836 - 08/12/15 03:23 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Dude that's fucking twice tonight!! Get out of my head!! 
Sorry. It's just so roomy in here! lol
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JvF
Fletcher Detcher


Registered: 02/13/14
Posts: 2,662
Loc: Chicago
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Its the starter, plain and simple. If you try to start it and it clicks but doesnt turn over, its the starter. Could be the spark plugs, but its definitely the starter
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Shroomslip
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: JvF]
#22079842 - 08/12/15 03:27 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes there's gas in the car .
Fuses I plan to check tomorrow, it was getting late (and dark) when I finally went to start the car. No chance I crossed wires (once touched wrench to the negative terminal while loosening the positive, will never do that again and I make damn sure I don't). Positive cable did spark when I connected it to the battery. I've always understood this to be normal though.
I'm aware fuel pump could be the issue, although I find it kind of suspect that the car would offer no stalling or power loss issues at all, if it was going out. Would have to be a hell of a coincidence that it had a total failure right after we get it in the driveway and shut if off.Quote:
jfischer218 said: Its the starter, plain and simple. If you try to start it and it clicks but doesnt turn over, its the starter. Could be the spark plugs, but its definitely the starter
It turns over, freely. Literally sounds like every car you are starting, there is no perceivable low speed or anything (at least until the battery starts getting too dead to turn it over)
EDIT: And yeah I know alternators charge the battery, but something caused the battery to drain. Possible we drove it home on the battery and the alternator just wasn't charging it on the drive home. The only reason I want to check the alternator is because the battery was "dead" when I went to start it the next time. I mean if it's not a bad battery at least.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
Edited by Shroomslip (08/12/15 03:30 AM)
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Amanita86
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Registered: 09/26/12
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: JvF]
#22079843 - 08/12/15 03:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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They'll click like that if the battery is drained too.
Your check engine light didn't come on did it?
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Shroomslip
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Amanita86]
#22079845 - 08/12/15 03:32 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Been on before this problem. We had the current CEL's, which is why I was messing with the o2 and stuff to begin with. I have no idea if there is a new code.
The two codes we had before this issue was Warm up catalyst efficiency below normal and VTCS circuit input low. I've determined what the VTCS issues is already. I'm not sure what is causing the first one. Just going ahead and replacing the precat and o2 sensors.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
Edited by Shroomslip (08/12/15 03:35 AM)
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Amanita86
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Registered: 09/26/12
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Shroomslip]
#22079850 - 08/12/15 03:37 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomslip said: Been on before this problem. We had the current CEL's, which is why I was messing with the o2 and stuff to begin with. I have no idea if there is a new code.
The two codes we had before this issue was Warm up catalyst efficiency below normal and VTCS circuit input low. I've determined what the VTCS issues is already. I'm not sure what is causing the first one.
Well, it looks like the only variable is that battery coming out, and then going back in. Installing a battery shouldnt throw sparks, and with the computers they have on cars these days that could mean any number of things. It'll save you a lot of tail chasing to get it properly diagnosed and go from there.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Shroomslip
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Amanita86]
#22079856 - 08/12/15 03:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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At this moment I have nothing more to do than chase my tail.
It could very well be the coils/spark plugs/wires (it is literally not firing the cylinders). I'm mostly making this post to check other things it could be while I wait for that stuff to get here. If after I deal with that stuff, I still can't fix the issue, I plan to get it properly diagnosed. As of this moment there's no sense in spending money I may not have to though (like if I took it to a mechanic and they told me it was the ignition coil, it'd of been a total waste as I'm replacing that anyways).
So far I have bad battery (despite it checking out, it wouldn't be the first time Autozone has told me a battery was good when it wasn't and getting a new one solved everything) blown fuses, and fuel delivery to test for. I plan to test all of these tomorrow.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
Edited by Shroomslip (08/12/15 03:45 AM)
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Amanita86
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Registered: 09/26/12
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Shroomslip]
#22079861 - 08/12/15 03:49 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ask them if you can borrow one of their diagnostic tools.. I don't know if they do that or not, but if you can talk them into it for a few hours you could see if it's throwing any new codes.
If you have time to spare you could pull a plug and turn your key to see if it sparks. That would cross that off the list atleast.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Shroomslip
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Amanita86]
#22079870 - 08/12/15 03:59 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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They don't loan those out, I've asked before. I really wish I had the money to drop on one (buying a 300 dollar tool is a bit different than 300 in car parts). Would make solving these types of issues so much easier. But I'd want a decent one that could do a bit more than just tell me the code. In almost all instances I can just drive to Autozone and have them tell me the code (which to my understanding is basically all the cheap ones are good for).
I know cars are becoming so complex they're almost a must, but there is still a way to test most things with basic technology. They're just often more difficult or time consuming.
I haven't even gotten around to testing the spark plugs yet or even pulled them. I have no idea what they're going to look like when I do pull them out. I know that's something that would be the obvious first, but as I said, I didn't discover this problem until it was getting too dark to really see much (working by flash light sucks).
We bought the car knowing there was a catalytic converter issue. After reading I learned there's usually a reason they fail and what those reason are. So before getting into all that, I wanted to test the o2 sensors first and make sure they weren't faulty and throwing a false code, and that's where I learned the car wouldn't start. I haven't gotten around to figuring out if the o2 sensor is faulty, and if not, why the cat failed. Spark plugs would be the first thing I checked if I determined the o2 wasn't wrong.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
Edited by Shroomslip (08/12/15 04:02 AM)
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: Shroomslip]
#22079900 - 08/12/15 04:29 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Check all fuses and relays, especially the ones that have to do with fuel delivery and ignition. Anti theft system issues are a likely culprit as well; do you have a spare key? If so, try that. Most cars this vintage check the key code when starting and there will be no ignition if the key isn't read correctly. Sometimes this has to do with bad contacts in the antenna in the steering column that read the key code, you may try to wiggle the key a bit to see if that helps. Otherwise, some diagnostics could help; if it's the anti theft system, it won't produce any particular error codes.
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Shroomslip
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Re: Car help, won't start. [Re: koraks]
#22079931 - 08/12/15 05:00 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Can you elaborate on the key code thing? I've never heard of anything like this. Especially an "antenna" picking up on it.. . It's just a normal key as far as I know. Is there something in the plastic casing that sends a signal?
It's kind of a hailmary but it could explain the problem. I mean it doesn't make much sense to me really because I can't see how it's anything but plastic and metal BUT the key I've tried to start it with at all times, is not the key that it drove home on. The key it drove home on is a duplicate. The key I have is the original, but the plastic part has been melted or something. If that could somehow mess with things, then that could be the problem.
Key more or less looks like this

Minus the melting or whatever it is on the plastic.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
Edited by Shroomslip (08/12/15 05:03 AM)
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