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Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate, Injection Grain Bag   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Cook dry grains at high pressure to hydrate and sterilize [Re: blackout]
    #22589270 - 11/29/15 06:24 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Challenge accepted, this should give me an edge with my project. I think I will try a longer pc time though. I also will not allow my PC to vent steam even from the beginning. I would imagine that the less steam released the better.


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Cook dry grains at high pressure to hydrate and sterilize [Re: camplo]
    #22590237 - 11/29/15 12:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Picked up 2lbs of popcorn at a scrap metal yard for $1.  Pretty good deal, except maybe making a really attractive girl think I was a bit of freak for being willing to buy food from there.  Anyway, I'm gonna give this a shot, though if you have a full fractional sterilization microwave protocol you would like someone to test out, that might be more useful for y'all underprivileged youth.


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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Cook dry grains at high pressure to hydrate and sterilize [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22590845 - 11/29/15 02:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

camplo said:
I think I will try a longer pc time though. I also will not allow my PC to vent steam even from the beginning. I would imagine that the less steam released the better.



What are you going to PC, and for how long?

You realize why I do not vent right? so it reaches a higher temp/pressure quicker and so does not overhydrate the grains. If any grains or bits of grain are clinging to the upper area of the PC they might not be heat treated properly, so make sure everything is in the water and submerged. I was thinking of putting the grains in a muslin bag to make sure its submerged.

I saw a program on discovery I think with heinz beans and they had temp probes in a can inside a stack of cans being heat treated. I think the said 3mins at 121C was enough. Canned foods are usually full of liquid, i.e. not air gaps. This should be similar to what is happening in a PC full of liquid. There is no "core" of the jar, it's freely stirring up the water. I am wondering how little I can get away with once at pressure. At 20-25psi 1 minute maybe all that's needed. But if the grain is not hydrated it would be more like dry air sterilization, needing a lot more time.

Quick venting to cool it down could also cause exploding grains though, so you have to get a correct balance -too long in the hot water and they explode -too quick a cool down to prevent overhydration can cause them to explode.

You could do test amounts of grain to see how much they hydrate. But if you only put say 250g of grain in 1L of water instead of 1000g in 4L of water then it will not be the same with a given power. If you are applying the same heat then the 1L will roughly heat up 4 times faster, and cool 4 times faster than the 4L test. If you can get a much higher power heat source then heat up time will be less.

Quote:

Machiavelliavore said:
though if you have a full fractional sterilization microwave protocol you would like someone to test out, that might be more useful for y'all underprivileged youth.


Exploding grains is always a problem, your grains can get past 100C in a microwave no matter what others say, and easily explode. I think you would have to add just enough water to hydrate and heat. And then add more water for the next time, which should probably be preboiled, especially on the last round of treatment. Grains should be shaken frequently too to stop hot/cold spots

I have heat treated a coir & BRF mix in a pot which I plan on injecting with LC soon. I added a glass shot glass to the tub to act as an agitator, its nice & heavy so should be able to shift it. If in bags it could be mixed manually but I am not fond of bags.

Coir & BRF is forgiving as you can add loads of water as there is nothing to explode, this means it will steam up really well and heat far more evenly.

Any tek for a microwave cannot be as simple as PC or steaming times, due to moisture loss. You need to know your own microwave and substrate. But once you use the same substrate, microwave, power levels, containers, time etc it should be repeatable.


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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Cook dry grains at high pressure to hydrate and sterilize [Re: blackout]
    #22591467 - 11/29/15 05:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I did not work out for me, I had too much grain to process and the pc could only hold so much water.
It took for ever to reach temp. I would of had to of done it having the water boiling and the grains microwaved and even then I wonder if it would be possible given the large amount of grain I would like to process. So I prepared my Cjar with the soaked grain I intended on using in the first place.

It seems this whole thing probably works but is a race against time, needing to get to 15psi asap in order to start the 15 minute count and initiate cool down so that the whole thing last less than an hour.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Cook dry grains at high pressure to hydrate and sterilize [Re: blackout]
    #23757515 - 10/21/16 09:56 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Tried this again with poor results as it overhydrated, will put figures up for the record to show what does not work. 600g room temp unsoaked groats added to 2.5L hard boiling water. I think the groats I got were oats with the loose outer husk removed.

0min dumped in
3min30sec boiling again.
4min 1psi
6min 5psi
8min 10psi
10min 17psi
11min 20psi
12min 25psi (taken off heat)
15min 18psi
16min 17.5psi
18min 15psi
19min 14psi
20min 12.5psi
21min 12psi
22min 11psi
25min 8psi
26min 7.5psi
27min 7psi
30min 5psi
32min 3psi
34min 2.5psi
35min about 2psi
vented it in bursts at this point, and it was very overhydrated, not sure if venting at 2psi would cause such a burst, I doubt it and reckon they were overhydrated at that time.

The 600g now weighed 1406g and weight would have been lost to the starchy water. That would be 134ml added per 100g grain which is a lot, and would be more as some of the 600g was washed away.

It was ready for the bin but instead I wanted to try 2 things, G2G in open air and adding blended/powdered coir to absorb the excess moisture. I rinsed off all the starch that I could. Powdered coir was added, didn't weigh it, actually looked pretty well after that. 355g of colonised popcorn was added. Very little chance of this coming to anything.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Cook dry grains at high pressure to hydrate and sterilize [Re: blackout] * 1
    #23769848 - 10/25/16 12:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Did the same as the previous post 600g groats.

below are minutes and pressure

2 boiling
4 2 (i.e. at 4mins it was 2psi)
5 5
7 12
8 15
9 20 (take off heat)
11 18
12 17
13.5 15 (so 5.5mins were spent at 15psi or higher)
15 13
17 11
18 10
19 9 (began to cool the pot with a trickle of water)
21 4

I forgot to note the time at this point, my timer was stopped at 30mins so that is the max it would have been, but I think it might only have been 25mins. No venting was done at all.

The grain weighed 1222g, so very close to my goal of 1200g. Not many grains appeared to be burst, I presume some were already broken.

They went into a 3.5L container, this had been microwaved with water in it inside a large plastic bag for 10mins. This was then microwaved for 4mins in the same bag, the bag puffed up at about 3mins indicating it was boiling. It was turned to defrost for about 24mins, every 6-7mins it was put on high again until the bag puffed up to show it was definitely boiling. The plastic bag shows that it is steaming, traps steam around the outside of the container, it pressurises it slightly at times, when cooling it is like the container is in a SAB as it remains wet -and when cooled I will use it like an SAB, i.e. leave the container in the bag and work inside the bag itself, which remains wet.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Cook dry grains at high pressure to hydrate and sterilize [Re: blackout]
    #23769906 - 10/25/16 12:36 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I remember the old days of simmering the grains.

Boy do i feel dumb now.

Nice method man!


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Cook dry grains at high pressure to hydrate and sterilize [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #23769957 - 10/25/16 12:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Nice method man!



Well nothing is proven here, unless you simply mean a quicker way to hydrate grains before doing traditional sterilization techniques, and of course people have been doing pressurised hydration before, but I have not heard of any going past 15psi while hydrating, some limit to pressures say 5psi. Sterilization times fall dramatically with pressure/temp.

When pressurised I believe it hydrates faster not only due to higher temperatures but since water is forced into the grains, so its going to have to be fine tuned by the individual. 2mins more at 18psi is going to cause far more difference than 2mins simmering. I have no doubt you would get more consistent results by regular simmering. It will be grain dependent too, and not just "rye takes x mins" you would find variation between batches.

my previous grains have not gone bad just yet, I think they were still too wet even with the coir added, I had a peek and the popcorn had recovered but it did not seem to have leaped off onto the groats. I have seen delays before when doing G2G from even the same grains at different hydration levels.

I would not advise anyone to bother trying microwaving either, unless you have a good understanding about all the issues/problems associated with using them, many are evidently totally ignorant about them -people still ending up with burnt tongues and half frozen dinners, clueless...


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