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Rebelutionsssss
Mdmazing



Registered: 07/23/14
Posts: 13,137
Loc: San Francisco
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is?
#22074620 - 08/11/15 01:37 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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I mean all bullshit aside I've know safe drug users that have used MDMA atleast 100-300 times and they're all fine with no problems, I've used the substance extensively with no problems. And from reports I've read from the 80's the people that use to roll every weekend are all fine even with aging. I know MDMA can be dangerous(any chemical can) but is rolling once a month or so really that bad for you? Our serotonin systems seem to be rather resilient so I'm thinking with careful dosing 120-150mgs, no re dosing, plenty of water and vitamins the day before/during/after plus 5-htp For the following week is there a great risk?
-------------------- : To define is to confine.
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Shroomslip
Architekt



Registered: 11/25/12
Posts: 23,720
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: Rebelutionsssss] 1
#22074629 - 08/11/15 01:43 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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It eats holes through your brain, so it's not very safe.
Honestly I sometimes wonder if these types of myths are perpetuated just so those who know better have a more ready supply of it.
--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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Mad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: Rebelutionsssss]
#22074632 - 08/11/15 01:43 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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who knows?
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uninc4life2010
Unincorporated



Registered: 06/05/10
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#22074636 - 08/11/15 01:45 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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It is something that is unfortunately not very well understood, due to poor research and the drug war. Thanks, Reagan. Politics aside, moderate use of the drug isn't likely to harm users in the long term. I would consider moderate MDMA usage to be 2-3 times per year, but that is just my opinion.
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danielx
whatup!


Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 6,500
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: Rebelutionsssss]
#22074639 - 08/11/15 01:47 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's definitely neurotoxic to an extent. If you use it enough it can fuck up your pleasure centers.
Shulgin said he did it once a week for years and he died at a ripe old age so I figure it can't be all that bad.
-------------------- Long live kratom
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Mad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: danielx] 3
#22074642 - 08/11/15 01:48 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
danielx said: Shulgin said he did it once a week for years and he died at a ripe old age so I figure it can't be all that bad.
thats a total fallacy
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Adolin




Registered: 06/28/11
Posts: 8,292
Loc: USA
Last seen: 2 months, 22 days
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#22074643 - 08/11/15 01:49 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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while ive never used MDMA, ive always put it on par with meth. which doesnt eat holes in your brain, contrary to pop culture
meth tends to be more destrictive overall, obviously, but i'm talking on a dose-by-dose, mg-for-mg basis
the only reason ive avoided MDMA is because i have problems with dissociation/depersonalization anxiety. despite mdma's lovey dovey reputation, it has a tendency to trigger DP
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pirate-blues


Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 13,827
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#22074646 - 08/11/15 01:49 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not unsafe unless you OD on the stuff or have some kind of severe heart condition. Certainly not taking icescream scoops out of your brain, sure you can abuse it like any other drug, but it's potential to be addictive is much lower than a lot of other things - much like psychedelic drugs in general.
I would say that it only gets unsafe when you're not actually on MDMA but a cheap imposter that is easier to take to much of. I wouldn't do it every weekend - because as said it can really affect your dopamine levels and wear you down, some people do it every weekend and it's fine, but I prefer not to do psychedelics too frequently because the experience is better if it's every couple of months or so.
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danielx
whatup!


Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 6,500
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#22074653 - 08/11/15 01:51 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad_Larkin said:
Quote:
danielx said: Shulgin said he did it once a week for years and he died at a ripe old age so I figure it can't be all that bad.
thats a total fallacy
How so? The fact that it didn't effect shulgin assuming it won't effect others? It's a blanket statement but I find comfort in it.
If you are talking about the pleasure statement comment, its 100% true. Any drug effecting that part of the brain can have that affect, including anti depressants.
-------------------- Long live kratom
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pirate-blues


Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 13,827
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: danielx]
#22074658 - 08/11/15 01:54 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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I honestly get an afterglow that lasts days after coming down, and I feel changed for the better for a good month or so. I have ptsd though, so I wonder if that's apart of why it's starting to be considered therapeutic for ptsd.
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Mad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: danielx]
#22074659 - 08/11/15 01:54 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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naw, im saying its fallacious to say that just because one person did it a lot and lived a long life that its safe
theres plenty of people who smoked daily lived to be over 100 but we know smoking isnt safe 
the only real answer to OPs question is "nobody knows" because not enough real research has been done unfortunately
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danielx
whatup!


Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 6,500
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: Mad_Larkin] 1
#22074666 - 08/11/15 01:59 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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True. Wish our society wasn't so draconian so research could done more freely.
-------------------- Long live kratom
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404
error


Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 14,539
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: Rebelutionsssss]
#22074684 - 08/11/15 02:13 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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heavy users can have problems with working memory and processing. i know several people that have problems with that. you can overdose on it. i dunno, i feel its a drug that's best kept to once in a very long while. there's plenty of other substances that don't harm your brain nearly as bad.
made this in another thread recently, i'll post it here. didn't seem to have a lot of discussion on it but it's relevant
http://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neurotoxicity_part_1_metabolites/
Quote:
This is probably going to be the first in a series of discussions I start about MDMA. There's just too much information for one post. Therefore, I am going to start with one that is very interesting to me: MDMA's metabolites and their role in neurotoxicity. I pre-appologise for the length and terminology used.
First off, let's discuss how MDMA is metabolized. The human cytochrome CYP450 is responsible for the metabolism of MDMA. The primary enzyme responsible is CYP2D6, using O-demethylation. This process adds two hydrogen atoms to the two open oxygen atoms in MDMA to create HHMA. Let's look at the structure for a minute.
MDMA is 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine
HHMA is 3,4-dihydroxy-N-methylamphetamine
So your CYP2D6 enzyme added two hydrogen atoms to the methylenedioxy structure to create a dihydroxy structure. Once it's been o-demethylated to HHMA, it is no longer active like MDMA is. HHMA can then be 0-methylated further to HMMA, or 4-hydroxy-3-methoxy-N-methylamphetamine. Here is an image to help you visualize this process.
This is the primary route of metabolism.
Is that the end of the story? Nope! Yes MDMA is primarily metabolized by CYP2D6. However, a portion of your dose (~10%) is also metabolized by your CYP3A4 enzyme using N-demethylation. What substance is created by this process? MDA, or 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine. You see, this time your CYP3A4 enzyme changed the methyl group at the N position, and not the O position. This modified the methyl group into an amine group. We are now left with MDMA's more neurotoxic brother in our blood stream.
Let's add this into the picture from above.
MDA is then metabolized in the exact same manner MDMA was, o-demetylation by CYP2D6. So we add two hydrogen atoms to the O position to create HHA, or 3,4-dihydroxyamphetamine. So we essentially end up with HHMA with an amine group at the N position instead of a methyl group. It can also be o-methylated further (like HHMA) into HMA 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyamphetamine. Same thing as HMMA, just with an amine group instead of the methyl group.
So at this point you might be thinking how this all really matters. Well MDMA and MDA injected directly into the brain have been shown to NOT be neurotoxic. Well shit, there we go. Metabolism is to blame.
Not so fast! A study showed that individuals with lower CYP2D6 did not show lower neurotoxicity. In fact, they showed slightly higher. It may have led to some deaths as well. This led to the notion being tabled for a while.
So what is up then? Well where is the next logical place to look? Perhaps CYP3A4!!!!!
A person that has a genetic condition resulting in lower CYP2D6 enzyme is going to have what happen to their MDMA? A greater percentage will be N-demethylated to MDA by CYP3A4.
This is going to lead to what? Higher HHA serum levels.
HHA is what? A potent neurotoxin!
So MDMA and MDA injected directly into the brain show NO neurotoxicity. Individuals with lower CYP2D6 enzyme show higher levels of neurotoxicity. This leads me to believe that HHMA is not the primary culprit (probably still a factor though).
MDA has been shown to be much more neurotoxic than MDMA. MDA is NOT neurotoxic when directly injected into the brain. MDA cannot be metabolized into HHMA, but is directly metabolized to HHA. HHA is a potent neurotoxin.
Is anybody smelling what I am cooking over here?!? MDA is the cause of MDMA's neurotoxicity through metabolism to HHA (Also known as alpha-methyldopamine). BOOM!
Alpha-methyldopamine causes neurotoxicity.
Another link
And another!
Now I have been taking quercetin and grapefruit juice with my MDMA for a while now. These substances are CYP3A4 inhibitors. I knew that CYP3A4 metabolized part of my dose to MDA. I knew it was more neurotoxic, which is why I did this. However, I did not connect the dots as to why it was more neurotoxic.
Many postulated it was because of MDA's higher affinity for dopamine. However, why then did direct injections of it in the brain not cause neurotoxicity? If it was dopamine being re-uptaked by your SERT that was causing the damage, it would still be present when MDMA or MDA was directly injected into the brain. In fact, it would be higher. Yet we saw NO neurotoxicity.
Others were skeptical because the metabolism to HHA was only seen in rats. However, the 2009 study proved it happened in humans too! So hot damn, I am pretty sure this is a verifiable theory here. We definitely need studies to prove it though.
TL;DR I postulate that MDMA induced 5-HT neurotoxicity arises from the metabolism to MDA, consequently creating HHA or alpha-methyldopamine. Another route of neurotoxicy comes from the ring-hydroxylation of MDA to THA, or 2,4,5-trihydroxyamphetamine. Inhibit CYP3A4 using grapefruit juice to stop the metabolism to MDA and prevent both metabolites from being created.
Now do NOT take what I am saying as the end all and be all of potential MDMA induced damage. There is excitotoxicity at your ion channels, as well as other oxidative damage that can come into play. I will speak to these in other posts. This has also not been proven yet. So please take this post as a starting point, not a final answer. Feel free to pick apart my theory and find anything that I may have overlooked. I would rather be wrong and find the truth, then think I'm right and perpetuate a fallacy.
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King Klick
That Guy Everyone Knows



Registered: 11/13/11
Posts: 7,267
Last seen: 1 year, 4 days
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: 404]
#22074693 - 08/11/15 02:19 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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According to erowid its safer than alcohol but worse than acid.
-------------------- Your god is dead, and I killed him. When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul
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404
error


Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 14,539
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: King Klick]
#22074695 - 08/11/15 02:20 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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LSD is non-toxic and has a lower risk of dependence than MDMA.
edit, didn't read. that's interesting that it's safer than alcohol... i don't know how true that is though. alcohol is really shitty on the body.
Edited by 404 (08/11/15 02:21 AM)
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King Klick
That Guy Everyone Knows



Registered: 11/13/11
Posts: 7,267
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: 404]
#22074700 - 08/11/15 02:24 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
404 said: LSD is non-toxic and has a lower risk of dependence than MDMA.
edit, didn't read. that's interesting that it's safer than alcohol... i don't know how true that is though. alcohol is really shitty on the body.
Where as mdma is bad on the brain...in high doses (above 2mg/kg) I'm not sure if that implies its not neurotoxic until it's saturation point but it makes sense to me.
-------------------- Your god is dead, and I killed him. When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul
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404
error


Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 14,539
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: King Klick]
#22074701 - 08/11/15 02:27 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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read that link i posted above, i'm not sure it's neurotoxic directly
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Atreyu
Never Ending


Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 4,083
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: 404] 2
#22074712 - 08/11/15 02:33 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'd say MDMA is a dangerous drug, it may seem benign but really it can do some nasty stuff if taken too far.
LSD is safer and to me much more enjoyable, I haven't had much experience with MDMA, but it's not really the type of experience I fancy. Though 100mg in a social situation is an ice breaker.
--------------------
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ N = R* • fp • ne • fl • fi • fc • L
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pirate-blues


Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 13,827
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: Atreyu]
#22074717 - 08/11/15 02:37 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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I like a nice low dose myself. No more than 200mgs, usually 100 or 150 and I put it in capsules and just eat it. It's much more enjoyable to me that way than snorting a higher dose - that's just tooooo intense for me, I like to use it in social situations, not for 'raging'.
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King Klick
That Guy Everyone Knows



Registered: 11/13/11
Posts: 7,267
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Re: How dangerous do you guys feel MDMA truly is? [Re: 404] 2
#22074747 - 08/11/15 03:01 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
404 said: read that link i posted above, i'm not sure it's neurotoxic directly
Interesting. I'd like to get to the root of this myself. I have half a g of straight Molly if you need me to do some research.
-------------------- Your god is dead, and I killed him. When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul
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