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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
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How's my interpretation
#22070833 - 08/10/15 08:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- It's all for the s
Edited by Eggtimer (08/10/15 10:05 AM)
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Re: How's my interpretation [Re: Eggtimer]
#22070845 - 08/10/15 08:33 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
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Here's some more fuel.
Quote:
If Hume is right, then the concept of an object includes the concept of existence, and the concept of a nonexistent object would be as self-contradictory as the concept of a round square. If existence is not a predicate of individuals, then one might suppose that neither is nonexistence. Therefore, if Frege is right, to say of an object that it is nonexistent is a kind of nonsense that arises from a violation of logical grammar. (For Frege and those who follow him, a claim like “God exists/does not exist” is to be understood as a claim about the concept God, or about the property of being God. On this view, the logical form of “God exists” is not Exists (God)—where Exists is a predicate of individuals, but rather: The concept God applies to something, or Something possesses the property of being God.)
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nonexistent-objects/
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One of the reasons why there are doubts about the concept of a nonexistent object is this: to be able to say truly of an object that it doesn't exist, it seems that one has to presuppose that it exists, for doesn't a thing have to exist if we are to make a true claim about it? In the face of this puzzling situation, one has to be very careful when accepting or formulating the idea that there are nonexistent objects. It turns out that Kant's view that “exists” is not a “real” predicate and Frege's view, that “exists” is not a predicate of individuals (i.e., a predicate that yields a well-formed sentence if one puts a singular term in front of it), has to be abandoned if one is to accept the claim that there are nonexistent objects.
This entry is an examination of the many questions which arise in connection with the view that there are nonexistent objects. The following are particularly salient: What reasons are there (if any) for thinking that there are nonexistent objects? If there are nonexistent objects, then what kind of objects are they? How can they be characterized? Is it possible to provide a consistent theory of nonexistent objects? What is the explanatory force of a consistent theory of nonexistent objects (if such a thing is possible)?
-------------------- It's all for the s
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The Doobie Dude


Registered: 04/28/13
Posts: 13,498
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Re: How's my interpretation [Re: Eggtimer] 1
#22071084 - 08/10/15 10:03 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Life is a natural order of chaos. Things are likely to repeat and not repeat. You are a slightly advanced species of monkey on a rock circling a ball of gas, wait till you are on the other side to drive yourself crazy about these thoughts.
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"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head. If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 4 hours
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Quote:
The Doobie Dude said: Life is a natural order of chaos. Things are likely to repeat and not repeat. You are a slightly advanced species of monkey on a rock circling a ball of gas, wait till you are on the other side to drive yourself crazy about these thoughts.
I've been tripping on L since 1 am been up well over 24 hours smoked DMT while peaking on L. I don't know how I could get any closer to the other side. Also you assume what is on the "otherside" is different from this side. I say they are the same thing. I guess I'm down now but I've smoked a shit ton of weed too so pretty high still.
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So let's say the tree which grows apples is a tree which apples, using 'apple' as a verb. And a world in which human beings arrive is a world that peoples. And so the existence of people is symptomatic of the kind of universe we live in. Just as spots on somebody's skin is symptomatic of chicken pox. Just as hair on a head is symptomatic of what's going on in the organism. But we have been brought up by reason of our two great myths--the ceramic and the automatic--not to feel that we belong in the world. So our popular speech reflects it. You say 'I came into this world.' You didn't. You came out of it. You say 'Face facts.' We talk about 'encounters' with reality, as if it was a head-on meeting of completely alien agencies. And the average person has the sensation that he is a someone that exists inside a bag of skin. The center of consciousness that looks out at this thing, and what the hell's it going to do to me? You see? 'I recognize you, you kind of look like me, and I've seen myself in a mirror, and you look like you might be people.' So maybe you're intelligent and maybe you can love, too. Perhaps you're all right, some of you are, anyway. You've got the right color of skin, or you have the right religion, or whatever it is, you're OK. But there are all those people over in Asia, and Africa, and they may not really be people. When you want to destroy someone, you always define them as 'unpeople.' Not really human. Monkeys, maybe. Idiots, maybe. Machines, maybe, but not people.
So we have this hostility to the external world because of the superstition, the myth, the absolutely unfounded theory that you, yourself, exist only inside your skin. Now I want to propose another idea altogether. There are two great theories in astronomy going on right now about the origination of the universe. One is called the explosion theory, and the other is called the steady state theory. The steady state people say there never was a time when the world began, it's always expanding, yes, but as a result of free hydrogen in space, the free hydrogen coagulates and makes new galaxies. But the other people say there was a primoridial explosion, an enormous bang billions of years ago which flung all the galazies into space. Well let's take that just for the sake of argument and say that was the way it happened.
(isn't this what "visuals" are? and how reality normally "behaves") It's like you took a bottle of ink and you threw it at a wall. Smash! And all that ink spread. And in the middle, it's dense, isn't it? And as it gets out on the edge, the little droplets get finer and finer and make more complicated patterns, see? So in the same way, there was a big bang at the beginning of things and it spread. And you and I, sitting here in this room, as complicated human beings, are way, way out on the fringe of that bang. We are the complicated little patterns on the end of it. Very interesting. But so we define ourselves as being only that. If you think that you are only inside your skin, you define yourself as one very complicated little curlique, way out on the edge of that explosion. Way out in space, and way out in time. Billions of years ago, you were a big bang, but now you're a complicated human being. And then we cut ourselves off, and don't feel that we're still the big bang. But you are. Depends how you define yourself. You are actually--if this is the way things started, if there was a big bang in the beginning-- you're not something that's a result of the big bang. You're not something that is a sort of puppet on the end of the process. You are still the process. You are the big bang, the original force of the universe, coming on as whoever you are. When I meet you, I see not just what you define yourself as--Mr so-and- so, Ms so-and-so, Mrs so-and-so--I see every one of you as the primordial energy of the universe coming on at me in this particular way. I know I'm that, too. But we've learned to define ourselves as separate from it.
Quote:
The standard-brand religions, whether Jewish, Christian, Mohammedan, Hindu, or Buddhist, are — as now practiced — like exhausted mines: very hard to dig. With some exceptions not too easily found, their ideas about man and the world, their imagery, their rites, and their notions of the good life don’t seem to fit in with the universe as we now know it, or with a human world that is changing so rapidly that much of what one learns in school is already obsolete on graduation day.
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We suffer from a hallucination, from a false and distorted sensation of our own existence as living organisms. Most of us have the sensation that “I myself” is a separate center of feeling and action, living inside and bounded by the physical body — a center which “confronts” an “external” world of people and things, making contact through the senses with a universe both alien and strange. Everyday figures of speech reflect this illusion. “I came into this world.” “You must face reality.” “The conquest of nature.”
This feeling of being lonely and very temporary visitors in the universe is in flat contradiction to everything known about man (and all other living organisms) in the sciences. We do not “come into” this world; we come out of it, as leaves from a tree. As the ocean “waves,” the universe “peoples.” Every individual is an expression of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe. This fact is rarely, if ever, experienced by most individuals. Even those who know it to be true in theory do not sense or feel it, but continue to be aware of themselves as isolated “egos” inside bags of skin.
Edited by Eggtimer (08/10/15 10:37 AM)
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The Doobie Dude


Registered: 04/28/13
Posts: 13,498
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Re: How's my interpretation [Re: Eggtimer] 3
#22071165 - 08/10/15 10:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Drugs do not show you the truth. You are delusional.
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"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head. If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,061
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
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It seems to me that they are saying that reality is elucidated by contrast within concepts - there is no objective reality and we are only aware something's existence because it is contrasted by the lack of existence elsewhere.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 4 hours
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Quote:
The Doobie Dude said: Drugs do not show you the truth. You are delusional.
You must get over yourself to become yourself. I see people abusing each other on a daily basis because very few people consider others to be anything like themselves. "I'm the complex star in life where others are just the extras in my orbit" Meaning most people are bound to take things the wrong way and think you're acting aggressively toward them just because they are them but actually you're a complex being too and you have reason for acting the way you did other than that person is who they are.
Basically if humans didn't doubt/guilt/shame themselves so much they would be happier and understand themselves and others better. You should not be at war with yourself(your nature) when you are this causes constant anxiety and depression. It's only when validating your nature as something to be embraced rather than shunned as dirty or unpure or evil so on and so on.... Do you see what it's about No this isn't justification to do anything you want either.
("And they take the word of God as an easy auto response to the questions and designs of the natural order. At which point the man lost his connection with natural... At which point he rises as a cruel assassin against the Earth... Humanity is in a new age, the age of fight between mother and son.") It's saying there is no need to be at war with nature because you are nature!
Edited by Eggtimer (08/10/15 11:14 AM)
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The Doobie Dude


Registered: 04/28/13
Posts: 13,498
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Re: How's my interpretation [Re: Eggtimer]
#22071297 - 08/10/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Come back down to Earth space cadet, I realize the illusion is strong. Sobriety might help you think this one through coherently.
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"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head. If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 4 hours
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Quote:
The Doobie Dude said: Come back down to Earth space cadet, I realize the illusion is strong. Sobriety might help you think this one through coherently.
I don't know if you're trolling or not but thanks either way. You've made me smile. These ideas are ancient. That certainly doesn't mean they're "true" but come on at least acknowledge that. This is what a lot of religions are "actually" about.
Although I don't agree entirety with this song it demonstrates some of the ideas of ancient times. You surrender your ego self to embrace your true self the only self that was possible and you didn't even know it was yourself! This is why you can still find beauty in something that has become a rotten reflection of it's self.
I fully agree the idea of a personal wish granting god is silly as fuck but at the same time the idea exists so instead of just calling people who have this idea delusional idiots I would try to understand them. Fuck did I get more than I expected. Think of gods as being metaphors for our human emotions
Quote:
Sons of Sumer open your eyes Awake, discover maze of the sublime Born within the cradle Voices of the essence Curious Enlil's legions forever watchful As we transcend plural psyche banishing The essence speaks to us In every cell in every stone and space
Meen fee hali ou bali Meen bis'aal il wali il fee Blessed be the cosmic dust We are all of Enlil's plan
Meen fee hali ou bali Meen bis'aal il wali il fee Blessed be the cosmic dust We are all of Enlil's plan
Submit to the grace of chaotic order
With his hands, he molded us Find the hidden meanings Facets inseparable from his plan Frequencies, pulsation, voices of the world
Magickal stains vaporize from (The) proverbial, cosmic energy spheres Doorway to the other will unlock Neo-spiritualism Arcane arts' interpretations Sons of Sumer open your eyes
Intrinsic unity of creation
Can you feel that stench? Is the human life, their bodies rot slow in time
Deification of mediocrity, exaltation of the rotting flesh Glorification of pettiness, idealization of feelings
Oh! Shamash lord show me the path The real sense of the human's life Slaves of hope, blinded and weak Embraced the torment and agony
Proud and frail, insolent men's race, owners of all things
As disease infecting a body, like a parasite feeds it's host Arrogant and feeble, pathetic error of the gods Ungrateful universal disgrace, unworthy animal Your eyes reveal your misery you are the stigma of the earth
The empires fall down, transformed in useless ruins
Nobility of thought? In a material world inspired by desires The dead hands of religion sterilize the wisdom
Mass of confused beings vanish in an atrocious fanaticism Avid for love, needy of forgiveness mired in ignorance Abstainers of the eternal pleasures, victims of massive fraud Blinded by the faith for a puny god
Glorious ability to enslave a depraved animal Through immaculate awareness
Redemptor of puritans, proclaimers of self-deceit Orators of fraud with hypocritical complacency
Under the yoke of a fruitless falsehood Commanded by the enthroned liar Embraced by his eunuch host The ice age of religious thought comes to an end
Sing praises to the wasteland behold a forsaken and inglorious earth
("Faith means not wanting to know what is true." —Friedrich Nietzsche)
Edited by Eggtimer (08/10/15 11:49 AM)
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Akeldama


Registered: 07/31/14
Posts: 124
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Awesome, 5 star post, but even more awesome band...Beyond Creation!! definitely my favorite band..
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Turtletotem
Dutch Delight



Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 3,763
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: How's my interpretation [Re: Eggtimer]
#22071327 - 08/10/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've been paying with these ideas on and off for some time now. I'm still not any closer to cracking it 
But there is a certain beauty about it, you know?
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Akeldama


Registered: 07/31/14
Posts: 124
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Turtletotem said: I've been paying with these ideas on and off for some time now. I'm still not any closer to cracking it 
But there is a certain beauty about it, you know?
yes, a feeling of universal beauty.. it appears these concepts are what more or less all the 'masters' come to understand. just impossible to convey through words, only experience.
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
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Re: How's my interpretation [Re: Akeldama]
#22071421 - 08/10/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Akeldama said:
Quote:
Turtletotem said: I've been paying with these ideas on and off for some time now. I'm still not any closer to cracking it 
But there is a certain beauty about it, you know?
yes, a feeling of universal beauty.. it appears these concepts are what more or less all the 'masters' come to understand. just impossible to convey through words, only experience.
Funny enough I believe this comes out of the Islamic world which is one of the worst offenders of religion. It can't be put into words but it can be seen if you watch your mind or just the natural world in general. Really listen to your thoughts and try to figure out where they're coming from.
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Akeldama


Registered: 07/31/14
Posts: 124
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: How's my interpretation [Re: Eggtimer]
#22071452 - 08/10/15 12:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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DurgaDurg
Stranger


Registered: 09/27/13
Posts: 576
Loc: Tangled In The Willows
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
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Quote:
The Doobie Dude said: Drugs do not show you the truth. You are delusional.
Doobie dude gets upset if someone thinks they had a meaninful experience. Why is that? And were only slightly advanced monkeys? You're a clown.
-------------------- When you see him look him in the eye, look him in the eye and he won’t dare to follow If you need to, hook him with your right, hook him with your right till he wiggles and wallows He sleeps atop a bag of raven’s legs, curled up rats napping by his head Takes his eye out with a ball point pen And makes nunchaku with his torn off legs You wake up with a hatchet over your head You wake up with a hatchet over your head
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
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Re: How's my interpretation [Re: Akeldama]
#22071477 - 08/10/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Akeldama said: Man, it's hard to beat the spellbinding beauty of mosques... check this link out
http://timewheel.net/Image-15-Mesmerizing-Mosque-Ceilings-That-Appear-To-Be-Influenced-By
Before Genghis Khan the Islamic world was one of the most advanced. Much knowledge was lost after this. http://lostislamichistory.com/mongols/
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Despite ultimately being unsuccessful in their attempt to destroy Islam, the Mongols left a deep political, economic, and military scar in the heart of the Muslim world. Entire regions were depopulated. Irrigation canals, fields of crops, and economic infrastructure were destroyed beyond repair. The political institutions, such as the caliphate, that held the Muslim world together for centuries were simply abolished.
The empire established by Hulagu stretched over most of Muslim Southwest Asia
The Mongol Il-Khanate established by Hulagu’s descendants would rule over Persia, Iraq, and Anatolia for over 100 years. Over decades and centuries, the Mongols in Southwest Asia slowly converted to Islam and became absorbed in a Persian/Turkish culture. But there is no denying the immense negative effect the Mongols had on the Muslim world in the 1200s.
The Mongol invasion is one of the most demoralizing times of Islamic history. The death and destruction of the 1200s has not yet been seen again in the Muslim world. While most articles on this website illustrate the great achievements of Islamic history, it is similarly important to be aware of the negatives, particularly what causes them to occur. The Muslim world was largely unable to repel the Mongol invasion due to disunity and weak political and military institutions. Throughout Islamic history, disunity has always led to invasion and defeat, while unity has led to great Islamic empires that benefited the entire world.
I don't think any of it was "made" but it just happened all at once. The maker was made by the people which were made by the maker so on and so on. It's a vibration, an oscillation. Sacred mirrors reflecting theirselves self endlessly.

 Like I said I don't believe it to be this way but it's an interesting idea and kind of relates to the whole issue. I don't believe things were "shaped" by anything other than themselves.
Edited by Eggtimer (08/10/15 12:29 PM)
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite



Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,067
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Re: How's my interpretation [Re: Eggtimer] 1
#22071522 - 08/10/15 12:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I love how the crusty glass stem is thrown in there classic
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Giftofdeprivation
Discerning Vagrant



Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 3,933
Last seen: 8 years, 28 days
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Re: How's my interpretation [Re: Eggtimer]
#22071531 - 08/10/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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you are on a drug, which temporarily alters your neurobiology. You seem to be pretty out there indeed (hard for me to keep up. Your thoughts flit by like popcorn), so I imagine you're going to have an interesting next couple of days integrating your experiences with reality.
There are, obviously, allegories and information that can be drawn: your perception of being is expanding to everyone/everything in the universe (drug). Obviously that's not 100% reality, but there's something there, right? Causality does unite us in a lot of strange ways...
Make use of all the strange neural pathways you just laid with practical meta-cognitive ideas, not hallucinogenic delusions. Next time, take psychs with something somewhat grounded in mind that you'd like to meditate on. Or be cool that this is recreational and not doing too much for you (or us) my opinion/sphincter
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
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Edited by Eggtimer (08/10/15 12:58 PM)
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