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Invisiblesudly
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What is the biological origin of consciousness?
    #22061151 - 08/07/15 11:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I've been developing a hypothesis of my own but i'd like to hear your thoughts. preferably not god did it.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22061409 - 08/08/15 02:21 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

My theory teacher called it "the miracle of symbolic capacity". I don't know if that's the answer to question but I always liked that phrase.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #22061425 - 08/08/15 02:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think the world "undergoes the formality of existing" without consciousness.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22061548 - 08/08/15 05:11 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Evolution by natural selection.  :grin:  But of course, that is the origin to all biological phenomenon.


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22062048 - 08/08/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Have you ever felt the emptiness from the sense that our identity is a mechanistic confabulation.

A feeling of ultimate mundane and futile existentialism. Like the feeling when you look at a corpse and know that will be you someday.

Envy of those who can still entrance themselves in fantasy.


Edited by Jaegar (08/08/15 09:57 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Jaegar]
    #22062254 - 08/08/15 11:07 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

No.  Atheism and the acknowledgement that the human soul is mortal adds to the mystery and wonder of experience and the universe.  It frees me to create my own meaning out of life, which is far from futile - as opposed to futilely hoping for meaning to be presented to me.  Its empowering and honest.


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22062273 - 08/08/15 11:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don,t find satiety from our pathetic biological program and futility. Especially when the organism nervous system and organs disfunction which is inevitable.

I suppose it's a matter of perspective until the biological mechanisms fail. Dementia, pain and hopelessness.


Edited by Jaegar (08/08/15 11:21 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Jaegar]
    #22062332 - 08/08/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Death anxiety is a bitch, Ill agree with you there.


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Jaegar]
    #22062339 - 08/08/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jaegar said:
Have you ever felt the emptiness from the sense that our identity is a mechanistic confabulation.

A feeling of ultimate mundane and futile existentialism. Like the feeling when you look at a corpse and know that will be you someday.

Envy of those who can still entrance themselves in fantasy.



Well if you only look as far as the knowledge we have up to this point in time and think that's all we'll ever know about life and our place in the universe that thought can get old quick. There is still so much to learn and experience that we are probably standing on the beach with an entire ocean full of knowledge still left to be acquired. Don't fret, we don't know shit.


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22062350 - 08/08/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I think greater knowledge of how we function might not be soothing and empowering as some may imagine.

I cannot fathom the changes in social circumstances and order but it probably isn,t all roses.


Edited by Jaegar (08/08/15 11:41 AM)


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22062432 - 08/08/15 12:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Could be.  Or we may not even be able to comprehend a great amount of knowledge until our consciousness evolves further and possibly allows us to. I'm sure it's not all roses but I wouldn't be surprised if half of it is...


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22062459 - 08/08/15 12:10 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure you understand evolution to well.

It will be a long time before we can manipulate our own biology in any dramatic ways.


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Jaegar]
    #22062491 - 08/08/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Well I was speaking of the very far off future of humanity as long long as we don't go extinct before then. However our brain size grew in apparently a relatively short amount of time so who knows for sure.


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Jaegar]
    #22062492 - 08/08/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

We are the universe experiencing itself ! An ultimate cosmic conciousness is all that is will be or ever was or atleast thats how i look at it but there are things human language and perception just can't fathom the universe is sooo complex


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #22062498 - 08/08/15 12:22 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

O jeebus. So that's what it all about.


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22062502 - 08/08/15 12:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I could be getting my wording and thoughts missed up if so sorry. Is Saturday and my consciousness is altered :stoned:


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22062566 - 08/08/15 12:41 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
No.  Atheism and the acknowledgement that the human soul is mortal adds to the mystery and wonder of experience and the universe.  It frees me to create my own meaning out of life, which is far from futile - as opposed to futilely hoping for meaning to be presented to me.  Its empowering and honest.




you could make up any excuse to feel good about yourself.  given that our understanding of consciousness and the extra dimensions of the universe (and how they might play a role in our experience) is extremely limited, it seems that any acknowledgement of a "human soul" and any knowledge one thinks they have of it and death and the universe is based on the same kind of faith that religious people use to justify their pointless belief systems.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22063044 - 08/08/15 03:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'd postulate that a formal faculty (brain), and a faculty for tactile manipulation (opposable thumbs) describes many of the things we are conscious of in the world. Supposing it would be reasonable to follow the phenomenologist's criteria that consciousness is in the character of "intentionality", (consciousness is being directed towards some object)  I would say it is possible to find a biological thesis relative to this.

Kant only considered a formal faculty of consciousness in sensory experience. Do we say there is something beyond this? Perhaps not, but what if there were other a priori "faculties"? What if that Kantian faculty for phenomena, as often criticized, did not reach out enough to the world, or "things in themselves" and what we really found was the tactile faculty that accomplished this physical intimation? What if philosophers lived too much behind their eyes? Is a matrice of "space and time" as the philosopher says, really our conception of physis?

This would not be exhaustive of course, but to philosophers two biological faculties could perhaps stand out, to correspond to episteme (as knowledge in formal capacity), and techne (as handi-craft, in tactile capacity). It would be possible to further extrapolate our world from them, similar to how Kant had a priori in a single faculty, and maybe this could be a more rigorous "critique", as put.

These terms are perrenial. Plato called techne a bias, or at least a marginal knowledge basis. This was probably symptomatic of Greek society, in which he found the position of artisans to be less "noble" or virtuous than the disinvolved understanding of episteme. Whether "justified" or not, he or his interpreters marginalized the tactile faculty, for theoretical removal, and I would theorize, that this leads to how it becomes found in our society, in its inevitable, alien recursion.

Of course much as we might like to escape something so "rudimental" I would speculate, that an extrapolated, and hidden or marginal, and above all truly powerful faculty of physical intimation is something we both consciously and unconsciously tend to abstract into conscious human existence: as technology.

It becomes found in "knowledge" in our world, in whatever manner of circumspection we may have of it. Knowledge itself, is mainly found in the maxim of Baconian physical science, as "power", in what it is externalized in. In the lever or pully or button, or whatever utility enacts physical force, this is the particular manner of causal coherence that we call physics a priori, just as much as space and time.

The power points are difficult to find and always defended, most of all by opaqueness and obscurity, as the hidden and removed place of techne and its analyses. Techne is what is marginalized, and what comes back with a vengeance.

Our methodological pursuits; even today, as they represent increasingly far out cosmologies, are based on these mechanics. Society and human existence remains structured by these mechanics, when power goes all to one minute place of trigger and release (I recall Terrence Mckenna once saying something like that).

In any case; consciousness, I would argue, is some manner of the description of these two a priori faculties of human existence, and what I am suggesting is a biological basis to ground them. Consciousness is what is arising out of our unique hands (handicraft) and our unique brains (knowledge), and how we assert them in an embodied way, as power, or in such a biological drive, as described.

This thesis could indicate either our intimacy or alienation from the physicality of existence as the art of techne, or as conscious awareness, ie. in our wisdom in reflecting on this in general. Perhaps we seek an appropriate synthesis of these faculties?

Such a synthesis would not necessarily be found in a third corresponding faculty, so perhaps it is not "necessary" to seek that speculative intimation. It would only be the necessary and sufficient power of these faculties that stands out, as naturally selected bases.

So, yeah that'd be a speculation/theory.

Here is an extended discussion on techne and episteme:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/episteme-techne/


Edited by Kurt (08/08/15 09:32 PM)


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Kurt]
    #22063264 - 08/08/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
A formal faculty (brain), and a faculty for tactile manipulation (opposable thumbs) describes many of the things we are conscious of in the world.  IE. I would follow the criteria that consciousness is define as intentionality,  what it is conscious of, and consider relative to this. I would take the biological thesis, as coloring this, a priori, as faculties.

Kant only considered a formal faculty of consciousness. What if there were others?

This would not be exhaustive of course: To philosophers, these biological faculties could correspond to episteme (knowledge as formal capacity), and techne (handi-craft, as tactile capacity), and it would be possible to further extrapolate our world from this.

Notably Plato called techne a bias, or at least a marginal basis of knowledge. This was probably symptomatic of Greek society in which found the position of artisans to be less noble than disinvolved understanding as episteme. Hence whether or justified or not, he marginalized the tactile faculty, and I would theorize, that this leads to how it becomes in our society, in its inevitable recursion (of course we would be unable to escape something so rudimentally founded in us as a biological faculty) a hidden, and alienated, and truly powerful faculty that we both consciously and unconsciously tend to abstract from human existence: or technology.

Knowledge itself, is mainly found in the conception of Baconian physical science, as power. It is what is externalized in the lever or pully or button, or what ever utility enacts physical force. The power points are difficult to find and always defended, most of all by opaqueness and obscurity, as the hidden and removed place of techne and its analyses.

Our methodological pursuits; even today, as they represent increasingly strange cosmologies, are based on these mechanics. Of course, society and human existence remains structured by these mechanics.

In any case; consciousness, I would argue, is some manner of the description of these two faculties of human existence, that have biological basis. It is what is arising out of our unique hands (handicraft) and our unique brains (knowledge), and how we assert this as power, or in such a drive as it may be described.

This of course, could indicate either our intimacy or alienation from the physicality of existence as awareness, and our wisdom in reflecting on that. Perhaps we seek an appropriate synthesis of these faculties, and yet such a synthesis would not necessarily be found in a third corresponding faculty, so perhaps it is not necessary to seek. It is the necessary and sufficient power of these faculties that stands out, as naturally selected bases.

So, yeah, some speculations.

Here is a small three fold rubric on the philosophical basis in Aristotle:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/episteme-techne/
http://www.applitude.se/2011/02/aristotle%E2%80%99s-three-types-of-knowledge/

Here is a two fold discussion:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/episteme-techne/



Excellent thoughts  :seriousthumbsup:


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22063279 - 08/08/15 03:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

:cheers:


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Offlineviktor
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Kurt]
    #22070524 - 08/10/15 05:22 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Consciousness does not have a biological origin. It has never, and will never be proven that biology can give rise to consciousness.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
    #22070571 - 08/10/15 06:00 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quite the claim you have there but 'we don't know' doesn't equate to we know it doesn't.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineviktor
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22070590 - 08/10/15 06:10 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Explain to me how biology can possibly give rise to consciousness. You can't, it's impossible. The best you can do is to conflate consciousness with some working of the mind, and declare that this working of the mind has a biological origin.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
    #22070733 - 08/10/15 07:43 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Explain to me how biology can possibly give rise to consciousness. You can't, it's impossible. The best you can do is to conflate consciousness with some working of the mind, and declare that this working of the mind has a biological origin.




That is a pretty strong statement anyway.  "Proving" things or explaining "how" rather than "what" isn't really what science does.  The correlation you mention is strong evidence to support the biological nature and origin of consciousness.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22070815 - 08/10/15 08:18 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
The correlation you mention is strong evidence to support the biological nature and origin of consciousness.




I don't see how.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
    #22071500 - 08/10/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

"How" is irreverent. The correlation is there and it is very strong.  That is as good as it gets.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
    #22071549 - 08/10/15 12:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
The correlation you mention is strong evidence to support the biological nature and origin of consciousness.




I don't see how.





Please show an example of consciousness without a biological vessel, then you may have a point. Until then - no!


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #22072475 - 08/10/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I've been developing a hypothesis of my own but i'd like to hear your thoughts. preferably not god did it.



Let's hear your hypothesis.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22072929 - 08/10/15 06:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry but I'm not compelled to share it right now.
Just trying to hear what other ideas might be out there.

One idea I've heard has to do with humans living near the coast with increased fish in their diets that increased omega three levels and in turn improved cognitive abilities.

I don't see merit to the idea but it's interesting nonetheless.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22073217 - 08/10/15 07:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I can see the possibility that consciousness arose from chance and conditions being just right but place it lower on the list of possibilities.  To think that intelligence arose from randomness seems less likely to me.  The catalyst for consciousness came from some of the same sources that make up our universe.  Of course this can go into a lot of speculation with little scientific evidence so no point expanding as anybody can insert any theory no matter how far out.  Aka existence and consciousness are more trippy than psychedelics.


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22073262 - 08/10/15 07:33 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Sorry but I'm not compelled to share it right now.
Just trying to hear what other ideas might be out there.

One idea I've heard has to do with humans living near the coast with increased fish in their diets that increased omega three levels and in turn improved cognitive abilities.

I don't see merit to the idea but it's interesting nonetheless.



Interesting.......maybe the stoned ape went fishing?


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OfflineMajickMuffin
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22073278 - 08/10/15 07:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Consciousness was not created by biology in any way.
Biology was created by consciousness.

Consciousness originated on a separate plane.
Consciousness is within the spirit realm and the physical realm at the same time.

Bodies are vehicles which our consciousness created to be able to live a life like we do.

:pipesmoke::seriousthankyou:


Edited by MajickMuffin (08/10/15 07:36 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: MajickMuffin]
    #22073386 - 08/10/15 07:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinecircastes
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22073800 - 08/10/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

:lolsy:


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
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FULL
FORCE


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #22073804 - 08/10/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Sudly, you patronize MajickMuffin as if you have a real clue.  :thumbdown:  I've grown weary of some of the smugness in this thread.  If anyone has any actual evidence, please share.  I'm sure the scientific community would love to hear it.  Otherwise, realize that what you think is no more than an opinion (however seemingly well educated), and treat others' views accordingly.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: circastes]
    #22073817 - 08/10/15 09:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Seriously though, why are there spontaneous out of body experiences in the night, and why are they coupled with apparent attempts to test for fear? Literally if you acknowledge the demon or the shadowy entity as a fear test, you leave the human vehicle in another body, and enter into some kind of double of the world. It's a strange and beautiful place.

Then of course there is my more moderate evidence, that whatever state of mind you're in, that's the state the world is in. They are the same thing.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22073918 - 08/10/15 09:46 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

"Bodies are vehicles which our consciousness created to be able to live a life like we do."

We know that consciousness doesn't create anything physical on it's own so there's that.
Plus the quote begs the question of how animals got their bodies if they do not have a consciousness.
Claiming that consciousness is what creates a body is silly in every respect.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (08/10/15 09:51 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #22073938 - 08/10/15 09:51 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
We know that consciousness doesn't create anything physical on it's own so there's that.





Oh, really?  I missed that journal article.  Did you write it?

Sudly, as strongly as you feel about your conjectures, they are not evidence.  There is, as yet, nothing but conjecture.  So yours is, as a simple matter of fact, no better or worse than MajickMuffin's.

Can you disprove that statement?

Knock it off.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #22073969 - 08/10/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'm liking the no bullshit stance you're taking on this DQ. When it comes to subjective opinions on subjects such as this, there simply is no right, no wrong and no knowing.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #22073983 - 08/10/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

My own personal pet theory is that the brain is constantly in a super position of many different states, and somehow consciousness is involved in the collapse of those states into a single state. That's just wild speculation though, and I'm almost certainly wrong.

I do believe that consciousness has a physical (as in physics) component, and that eventually science will figure out what it is.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22074005 - 08/10/15 10:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
"Bodies are vehicles which our consciousness created to be able to live a life like we do."

We know that consciousness doesn't create anything physical on it's own so there's that.



Unless consciousness created the big bang and is now using the human body that it created indirectly to create physical things here on earth! Mystery solved people, you're welcome.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: nooneman]
    #22074037 - 08/10/15 10:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
My own personal pet theory is that the brain is constantly in a super position of many different states, and somehow consciousness is involved in the collapse of those states into a single state. That's just wild speculation though, and I'm almost certainly wrong.




Consciousness being like a filter, focusing on certain brain states?


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22074070 - 08/10/15 10:17 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Centuries of evidence and testing have proven that you can't think an apple into existence.

You can try it if you want to.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22074168 - 08/10/15 10:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

consciousness is the machinery of progress. energies break down into more usable materials to be recycled, and those energies are used to create more machinery to compel the re-use of more materials. we're alive to feed the machine of consciousness, and the origin of said consciousness is energy.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22074315 - 08/10/15 11:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Ok let's break down what you said.

consciousness is the machinery of progress.
Technically yes, our conscious ability allows us think and progress our technologies etc.

energies break down into more usable materials to be recycled,
Energy can become matter but it requires a hell of a lot of energy, no where near enough used in the brain. How exactly does energy break down into material?

and those energies are used to create more machinery to compel the re-use of more materials.
The brain uses energy, humans use consciousness to think and control their actions which in turn builds new materials from existing ones.

we're alive to feed the machine of consciousness,
We're alive because evolution was given billions of years on a stable planet to produce a variety of life, humans included.

and the origin of said consciousness is energy.
The fuel of consciousness is energy provided through metabolic processes that extract the energy from food which is gathered by plants from the sun.
That does not mean consciousness itself is energy, it is merely the result of energy being processed.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22074948 - 08/11/15 05:52 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I was saying that conciousness created biology in the begining. And im not speaking about an all powerful God, i am speaking about a group of entities who had a goal in mind to create this Universe, who created this simulation.

This simulation was created by a group of entities like ourselfs in spirit form.
Just like a human would create a Truck, it took a long fucking time, but once that truck was built, now that Human could drive in the Truck.

We as humans have a specific type of spirit; a human spirit. We have 2 forms, our spirit form and a human form. We can only inhabit a human body, or our original form, spirit.
The human body was created specifically for human spirits.

Just like a Dog body was created specifically for dog spirit, and so on.

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Sudly, you patronize MajickMuffin as if you have a real clue.  :thumbdown:  I've grown weary of some of the smugness in this thread.  If anyone has any actual evidence, please share.  I'm sure the scientific community would love to hear it.  Otherwise, realize that what you think is no more than an opinion (however seemingly well educated), and treat others' views accordingly.




This is most certainly my OPINION. I have gained it through speculation of the world that I see and the world I have experienced. Assisted through others knowledge aswell.
It makes sense to me, it is the only thing that makes sense out of all other things I have speculated.

I have experienced the spirit world throughout my life so myself, I cannot deny it.

Its my opinion, and I speak it to open others minds, for others consideration, not to force it upon anyone.

:ruggedwink:


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: MajickMuffin]
    #22075230 - 08/11/15 08:03 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

As I respect your right to have an opinion, I hope you respect my right to have one too. The idea itself intrigues me and it's an interesting thing to imaging but realistically it's not. Experience is not falsifiable and cannot be verified by another. It's a subjective claim. 

"Objective truth is something that is really true, it corresponds with reality, and can in principle be verified by others. Subjective truth, on the other hand, may be true for you but not for me, and cannot be verified by another. “Dogs have four legs” is an objective truth, but “I like dogs” is subjective."

I appreciate that you've said it was only your opinion, which consequently makes it subjective.


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Edited by sudly (08/11/15 08:22 AM)


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22075401 - 08/11/15 08:56 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
As I respect your right to have an opinion, I hope you respect my right to have one too. The idea itself intrigues me and it's an interesting thing to imaging but realistically it's not. Experience is not falsifiable and cannot be verified by another. It's a subjective claim. 

"Objective truth is something that is really true, it corresponds with reality, and can in principle be verified by others. Subjective truth, on the other hand, may be true for you but not for me, and cannot be verified by another. “Dogs have four legs” is an objective truth, but “I like dogs” is subjective."

I appreciate that you've said it was only your opinion, which consequently makes it subjective.



:kummeli:


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22075720 - 08/11/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Ok let's break down what you said.

consciousness is the machinery of progress.
Technically yes, our conscious ability allows us think and progress our technologies etc.

energies break down into more usable materials to be recycled,
Energy can become matter but it requires a hell of a lot of energy, no where near enough used in the brain. How exactly does energy break down into material?

and those energies are used to create more machinery to compel the re-use of more materials.
The brain uses energy, humans use consciousness to think and control their actions which in turn builds new materials from existing ones.

we're alive to feed the machine of consciousness,
We're alive because evolution was given billions of years on a stable planet to produce a variety of life, humans included.

and the origin of said consciousness is energy.
The fuel of consciousness is energy provided through metabolic processes that extract the energy from food which is gathered by plants from the sun.
That does not mean consciousness itself is energy, it is merely the result of energy being processed.



there ya go.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: nooneman]
    #22075932 - 08/11/15 11:08 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
My own personal pet theory is that the brain is constantly in a super position of many different states, and somehow consciousness is involved in the collapse of those states into a single state. That's just wild speculation though, and I'm almost certainly wrong.





nooneman, I think you are on the right track with this.  I have often felt very much the same way, and you put it quite succinctly.  :thumbup:

Quote:


I do believe that consciousness has a physical (as in physics) component, and that eventually science will figure out what it is.




Without getting into the semantic baggage of physical vs. metaphysical, I agree and can see no reason why humans cannot understand consciousness someday.  Feynman once asked whether frogs and symphonies come out of the wave function or not, and noted that at this point we cannot know, so for the time being we can all hold strong opinions either way!


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22077410 - 08/11/15 05:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

What was the point of saying that?

In essence the only meaningful thing you've said is 'Consciousness is the result of chemical energy being processed by the brain.'

That doesn't prove anything or make a point, it's a basic statement. 

Curling your finger uses energy too. Taking a step, jumping, picking up a ball. They all require energy from to body to be accomplished.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly] * 2
    #22078060 - 08/11/15 07:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

According to Integrated Information Theory, consciousness is a network effect based on the degree to which a system can take in information and integrate that information into a greater whole.  This contrasts with, say, a digital camera, which is able to take in a lot of information in the form of light, but produces a product that is modular, composed of pixels that can be taken apart and examined independently.  Our experience, on the other hand, is a totality that cannot be broken up in such a piecemeal manner.  We experience qualia such as shapes and colors not as independent of one another, but as part of a single, unified experience.  The degree of integration is designated by the variable Φ, which is the degree of subjective experience a system would have.  It turns out that the number of nodes a network would need to have to produce a Φ-value is surprisingly small.  Even quarks, which come in sets of threes, would qualify.  So some form of proto-conscious subjectivity is present well below the level of biology.  But what organisms are especially good at is integrating information from their environment, so we would see a huge acceleration of Φ-values with the emergence of the first organisms, even single-celled bacteria.  The explosion of complexity in evolution from there would take care of the rest.  It essentially confirms what Teilhard de Chardin called the Law of Complexity-Consciousness.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22078076 - 08/11/15 07:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
What was the point of saying that?

In essence the only meaningful thing you've said is 'Consciousness is the result of chemical energy being processed by the brain.'

That doesn't prove anything or make a point, it's a basic statement. 

Curling your finger uses energy too. Taking a step, jumping, picking up a ball. They all require energy from to body to be accomplished.



no need to get all uppity. i'm saying you answered your own question by summing up my answer.

ta-da! no more need to ponder.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Silversoul]
    #22078135 - 08/11/15 07:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
According to Integrated Information Theory, consciousness is a network effect based on the degree to which a system can take in information and integrate that information into a greater whole.  This contrasts with, say, a digital camera, which is able to take in a lot of information in the form of light, but produces a product that is modular, composed of pixels that can be taken apart and examined independently.  Our experience, on the other hand, is a totality that cannot be broken up in such a piecemeal manner.  We experience qualia such as shapes and colors not as independent of one another, but as part of a single, unified experience.  The degree of integration is designated by the variable Φ, which is the degree of subjective experience a system would have.  It turns out that the number of nodes a network would need to have to produce a Φ-value is surprisingly small.  Even quarks, which come in sets of threes, would qualify.  So some form of proto-conscious subjectivity is present well below the level of biology.  But what organisms are especially good at is integrating information from their environment, so we would see a huge acceleration of Φ-values with the emergence of the first organisms, even single-celled bacteria.  The explosion of complexity in evolution from there would take care of the rest.  It essentially confirms what Teilhard de Chardin called the Law of Complexity-Consciousness.





Yes. :thumbup:  This has many resonances with David Bohm's postulate of the Implicate and explicate order.  The notion of proto-consciousness is especially pertinent.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22078139 - 08/11/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

let me clarify something:

if scientists haven't proposed a reasonable hypothesis of the origin of consciousness, then i propose it's for one of two reasons...either they don't know yet, meaning that some mini-philosophers on a drug forum aren't going to either, or it's a purely philosophical exercise and there is not a "real" origin of consciousness; which in that case, the answer to your question can be perfectly summed up in one sentence: the origin of consciousness is the energy receptive in the brain and CNS in the mammalian and arthropod and amphibian and reptile and fish ect, and the photosynthesis of plants, the signal transduction of cellular organisms, enzyme catalyzation, and other "divisions of labor" in genetics ie energy transforming and recycling itself into usable materials for self-preservation.

PS: clicking on the first URL link in Silversoul's post leads to this one, so i'd presume that the internet agrees with me, OP.


Edited by akira_akuma (08/11/15 08:15 PM)


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22078676 - 08/11/15 09:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

"the origin of consciousness is the energy receptive in the brain and CNS in the mammalian and arthropod and amphibian and reptile and fish ect"

What do you think is the difference in humans that allows us to have consciousness over animals? All brains are energy receptive.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22078716 - 08/11/15 09:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

our organs are more capable of extrapolating and communicating information.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22078907 - 08/11/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'm surprised that posters in this thread have had such a difficult time defining consciousness. I think the answer is quite straightforward, even if it is difficult to understand. Here is the most articulate explanation I've been able to find for what consciousness is:

Quote:

"In one of the most influential essays on consciousness ever written, the philosopher Thomas Nagel asks us to consider what it is like to be a bat. His interest isn't in bats but in how we define the concept of "consciousness." Nagel argues that an organism is conscious "if and only if there is something that it is like to be that organism - something that it is like for the organism." ..... He is simply asking you to imagine trading places with a bat. If you would be left with any experience, however indescribable - some spectrum of sights, sounds, sensations, feelings - that is what consciousness is in the case of a bat. If being transformed into a bat were tantamount to annihilation, however, then bats are not conscious. Nagel's point is that whatever else consciousness may or may not entail in physical terms, the difference between it and unconsciousness is a matter of subjective experience. Either the lights are on, or they are not."


- Sam Harris




I don't know why a lot of you are appealing to information processing, or intention, or superposition. Each and every one of these has major explanatory gaps, or flaws.

Silversoul's appeal to information integration begs the very obvious question: What does information integration have to do with awareness? If we were to make a computer that could "integrate that information into a greater whole", wouldn't we still be open to question whether this machine is aware of anything? Whether the lights are on? Whether it is like something to be the computer? For all we know, such a computer could have the same inner life as that of a rock.

Quote:

Silversoul:

We experience qualia such as shapes and colors not as independent of one another, but as part of a single, unified experience.  The degree of integration is designated by the variable Φ, which is the degree of subjective experience a system would have.  It turns out that the number of nodes a network would need to have to produce a Φ-value is surprisingly small.  Even quarks, which come in sets of threes, would qualify.  So some form of proto-conscious subjectivity is present well below the level of biology.




It seems that you are suggesting that information integration implies the existence of subjective experience. However, you have yet to explain any reason why anybody should think this. Until we have a greater understanding as to what systems give rise to consciousness, we will never be able to know consciousness from a third party perspective. Again, I think a quote from Harris is apt:

Quote:

We know, of course, that human minds are the product of human brains. There is simply no question that your ability to decode and understand this sentence depends upon neuro-physiological events taking place inside your head tat this moment. But most of this mental work occurs entirely in the dark, and it is a mystery why any part of the process should be attended by consciousness. Nothing about a brain, when surveyed as a physical system, suggests that it is a locus of experience. Were we not already brimming with consciousness ourselves, we would find no evidence for it in the universe - nor would we have any notion of the many experiential states that it gives rise to. The only proof that it is like something to be you at this moment is the fact (obvious only to you) that it is like something to be you.

- Sam Harris




I also think that nooneman and DQ are somewhat off the mark with their appeal to superposition. I know you guys aren't committing strongly to any specific theory regarding the relationship of consciousness and superposition, but even merely entertaining a feeling or intuition to relate the two doesn't seem wise.

How did you two arrive at this suspicion? Was it something like: Quantum physics is mysterious and hard to understand, with lots of explanatory gaps, and consciousness is mysterious and hard to understand, with lots of explanatory gaps, therefore they have something to do with one another? I just don't see how you can relate the two, given how poor of an understanding we have of both domains of inquiry. It's very likely that something about physical stuff gives rise to consciousness, and it is quite apparent just how deep our lack of understanding of physical stuff runs. But that doesn't mean that consciousness will one day be explained by filling in the gaps of our understanding of rudimentary physical stuff.


And as for an appeal to evolution as the process that gave rise to consciousness, this is undoubtedly likely, but any deeper suggestions beg even more questions. For example; if it is suggested that consciousness is a beneficial mutation, that would necessitate consciousness (a seemingly non-physical phenomenon) having a physical effect on the brain, or other matter (physical systems), which seems as preposterous as suggesting that any other non-physical thing has an effect on physical systems. No account of physics (to my knowledge) suggests the existence of a non-physical realm that is able to influence physical systems.

Moar Harris:

Quote:

However we propose to explain the emergence of consciousness - be it in biological, functional, computational, or any other terms - we have committed ourselves to this much: First there is a physical world, unconscious and seething with unperceived events; then, by virtue of some physical property or process, consciousness itself springs, or staggers, into being. This idea seems to me not merely strange but perfectly mysterious. That doesn't mean it isn't true. When we linger over the details, however, this notion of emergence seems merely a placeholder for a miracle.
Consciousness - the seer fact that this universe is illuminated by sentience - is precisely what unconsciousness is not. And I believe that no description of unconscious complexity will fully account for it. To simply assert that consciousness arose at some point in the evolution of life, and that it results from a specific arrangement of neurons firing in concert within an individual brain, doesn't give us any inkling of how it could emerge from unconscious processes, even in principle.
However, this is not to say that some other thesis about consciousness must be true. Consciousness may very well be the lawful product of unconscious information processing. But I don't know what that sentence actually means - and I don't think anyone else does either.

This situation has bee characterized as an "explanatory gap" and as the "hard problem of consciousness," and it is surely both. Some philosophers have suggested that the relationship between mind and body will be understood only with reference to concepts that are neither physical nor mental but that are in some way "neutral." Others claim that consciousness can be known to be the product of physical causes but cannot be conceptually reduced to such causes. Still others have argued that the notion of a non-reductive physical account is incoherent.
I am sympathetic with those who, like the philosopher Colin McGinn and the psychologist Steven Pinker, have suggested that perhaps the emergence of consciousness is simply incomprehensible in human terms. Every chain of explanation must end somewhere - generally with a brute fact that neglects to explain itself. Perhaps consciousness presents an impasse of this sort.

- Sam Harris




Obviously consciousness remains a deep mystery.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22078925 - 08/11/15 10:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

"the origin of consciousness is the energy receptive in the brain and CNS in the mammalian and arthropod and amphibian and reptile and fish ect"

What do you think is the difference in humans that allows us to have consciousness over animals? All brains are energy receptive.




I think that humans are quite obviously not the only conscious animals on the planet. What reason do you have to suggest that we are conscious, but chimpanzees, for example, are not?

We are smarter, and probably possess more potential for happiness, suffering, and other qualities of experience, but that doesn't mean we are the only animals that are conscious. Our consciousness is merely of more complexity than most, if not all animals. However, it's still quite obvious that it is like something to be a chimpanzee, or an elephant.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: secondorder]
    #22078996 - 08/11/15 10:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


I also think that nooneman and DQ are somewhat off the mark with their appeal to superposition. I know you guys aren't committing strongly to any specific theory regarding the relationship of consciousness and superposition, but even merely entertaining a feeling or intuition to relate the two doesn't seem wise.

How did you two arrive at this suspicion? Was it something like: Quantum physics is mysterious and hard to understand, with lots of explanatory gaps, and consciousness is mysterious and hard to understand, with lots of explanatory gaps, therefore they have something to do with one another? I just don't see how you can relate the two, given how poor of an understanding we have of both domains of inquiry. It's very likely that something about physical stuff gives rise to consciousness, and it is quite apparent just how deep our lack of understanding of physical stuff runs. But that doesn't mean that consciousness will one day be explained by filling in the gaps of our understanding of rudimentary physical stuff.




Actually, in my case it is quite a subjective matter, and not some sort of ad hoc gleaning of elementary quantum theory.  In reality, my views on the subject go quite a bit farther than this, but this is certainly one aspect of it, and I believe -- after a lot of thought -- that nooneman and I have some merit.  This is not the place to go into it, but I would suggest you look into the writings of Dr. Henry Stapp, and you'll see there's actually quite a lot behind it.  I don't appreciate the condescension, by the way.  :smile:  I would not hesitate to say that your cursory dismissal of something you, ironically, understand less of than you think seems unwise, as well.  And your approach is rather typical, and dull.  Can anyone think originally on this stuff?  :wink:


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22079110 - 08/11/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Actually, in my case it is quite a subjective matter, and not some sort of ad hoc gleaning of elementary quantum theory.  In reality, my views on the subject go quite a bit farther than this, but this is certainly one aspect of it, and I believe -- after a lot of thought -- that nooneman and I have some merit.  This is not the place to go into it, but I would suggest you look into the writings of Dr. Henry Stapp, and you'll see there's actually quite a lot behind it.  I don't appreciate the condescension, by the way.  :smile:  I would not hesitate to say that your cursory dismissal of something you, ironically, understand less of than you think seems unwise, as well.  And your approach is rather typical, and dull.  Can anyone think originally on this stuff?  :wink:





I didn't intend to be condescending, sorry if that's how I sounded. I'm also sorry that you found my response "typical" and "dull". If you are not entertained by a concerted effort to explain or understand a particular area of inquiry, with commitment only to the truth and no commitment to trying to sound "original" just for the hell of it, then I'm sure you can find somewhere else to be entertained. Originality doesn't imply accuracy. If you want originality, perhaps try some of the Shroomery art threads..

This is not the first time that you have posted your opinion on a philosophical matter, refused to explain it, or even say why it appeals to you, and continued to rebuke others for disagreeing with you. Will we ever get to hear DQ's thoughts with any real depth or explanation?
Why isn't this the place to go into it? If it's relevant to the subject at hand, then we are all ears.

I don't understand quantum physics much more than a housefly. And I have repeated this in these forums ad nauseam.
I'm also not the one referencing poorly understood quantum phenomena as the reason for my beliefs on other matters. If you're going to reference it, or even refer to it, then at least explain why it's relevant, or post links or quotes to explanations of specific phenomena.


Edited by secondorder (08/11/15 10:36 PM)


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: secondorder]
    #22079918 - 08/12/15 04:51 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Consciousness can create matter. It does so in dreams. In dreams you can touch things as if they were physical.

There's no evidence that matter can create consciousness.

If one is evidently possible and the other is not, doesn't it make more sense to assume that the thing that is possible is more likely to be true?


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: secondorder]
    #22080523 - 08/12/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I apologize that I was impolite; I was in a rather foul mood last night.  Anyway, were I to go into some of Dr. Stapp's ideas, and further how they cross-reference with my own, it would veer severely off-topic and would be too long.  Therefore, I really don't care to go into it.  Suffice it to say, one can assign a wave function to the brain, and correlate it, quantitatively, between both objective and subjective components.  If you're at all interested, it's worth the foray.


"Bell has shown that the statistical predictions of quantum theory are definitely incompatible with the existence of an underlying reality (that resembles the observed world at the macroscopic level) whose spatially separated parts are independent realities linked only by causal dynamical relationships. The spatially separated parts of any underlying reality must be linked in ways that completely transcend the realm of causal dynamical connections. The spatially separated parts of any such underlying reality are not independent realities, in the ordinary sense." --Henry P. Stapp


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
    #22081896 - 08/12/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

In dreams you can do a lot of things, one night recently I dreamt that I had started a lucrative tourist industry of feeding sharks via fish pulled over my feet.
I acknowledge our rights for different views but I think this idea goes too far over what could be considered realistic.

No evidence for something doesn't confirm it doesn't exist. It confirms there is as of yet no evidence for it so that no definitive claims can be made such as something being possible or not.

From an evolutionary standpoint the entire body has a biological origin including the brain, as our organs have biological origins it's not far fetched to assume their functions have biological origins too. There isn't evidence for this yet but it's a very reasonable assumption. Far more so than a claim of consciousness creating matter which shows no grounds of reasonable assumption.

I'm trying to be respectful but I'd still recommend you reevaluate what is realistically possible.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? *DELETED* [Re: sudly]
    #22082360 - 08/12/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: nhbeleni]
    #22083648 - 08/12/15 09:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

While we differ in opinions elsewhere, you said 'biology is consciousness' and I'm inclined to agree :thumbup:


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #22083825 - 08/12/15 10:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
From an evolutionary standpoint the entire body has a biological origin including the brain, as our organs have biological origins it's not far fetched to assume their functions have biological origins too. There isn't evidence for this yet but it's a very reasonable assumption. Far more so than a claim of consciousness creating matter which shows no grounds of reasonable assumption.





Why do you assume that consciousness is a function of the brain? There is no evidence for this whatsoever.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
    #22083903 - 08/12/15 11:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Right... all we know is that the brain responds to consciousness


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
    #22084117 - 08/13/15 12:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

If consciousness builds our bodies, how come it took us 3.5 billions years to become built?

If you don't believe in evolution then our opinions may differ too much to continue being meaningful.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: yeah]
    #22084118 - 08/13/15 12:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The thing that is being looked at (the world) and the thing that is doing the looking (the consciousness) are the same entity. Call it brain or call it mind instead, then you might say there is no world separate from the nervous system... either way, your state of mind is everything.

So maybe we're asking the wrong question?


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22084163 - 08/13/15 12:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If consciousness builds our bodies, how come it took us 3.5 billions years to become built?

If you don't believe in evolution then our opinions may differ too much to continue being meaningful.




How do you know it took 3.5 billion years to build your body? Why do you believe in time?

I don't have a problem with evolution. But if you continue to make a mass of completely unsupported assumptions about biology I agree that there's little debate, much less meaning, in a conversation with you.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
    #22084192 - 08/13/15 12:39 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The scientific approximation is 3.5 billion years since the first prokaryotes existed. The beginning point of our biology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_evolutionary_history_of_life

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/history_of_the_earth

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat06.html


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
    #22084203 - 08/13/15 12:42 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Something to note is that if you get your perception right you will be amazed, astounded at the sheer quality, even magic of this world, just after going for a drive through the countryside, hills or rainforest... (I do it a lot)... and I mean completely sober, though I guess I don't really feel sober looking at it.

So these bodies actually evolved out of an almost magical, powerful source (the Earth/Nature). We're not supermarket brand.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22084259 - 08/13/15 12:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The scientific approximation is 3.5 billion years since the first prokaryotes existed. The beginning point of our biology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_evolutionary_history_of_life

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/history_of_the_earth

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat06.html




Again, why do you believe in time?


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
    #22084353 - 08/13/15 01:20 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I believe that time is a man made concept, just as science and religion.


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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: circastes]
    #22084417 - 08/13/15 01:42 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Something to note is that if you get your perception right you will be amazed, astounded at the sheer quality, even magic of this world, just after going for a drive through the countryside, hills or rainforest... (I do it a lot)... and I mean completely sober, though I guess I don't really feel sober looking at it.

So these bodies actually evolved out of an almost magical, powerful source (the Earth/Nature). We're not supermarket brand.



Yes yes and more yes. Existence and being aware of your existence  is such a wondrous phenomenon.  And to think that what we perceive with our eyes is just an interpretation of our mind and not at all what this world really looks like is a humbling thought.  To think that the unconscious part of my body can do things that I have no idea how it does it is mind boggling.  I don't know all the inner workings of my body and I don't need to in order for them to function properly. They do it on there own!  I don't need to tell it to heal it just does. Life is magical.


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