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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss



Registered: 04/05/15
Posts: 532
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Last seen: 9 months, 6 days
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#22079110 - 08/11/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Actually, in my case it is quite a subjective matter, and not some sort of ad hoc gleaning of elementary quantum theory. In reality, my views on the subject go quite a bit farther than this, but this is certainly one aspect of it, and I believe -- after a lot of thought -- that nooneman and I have some merit. This is not the place to go into it, but I would suggest you look into the writings of Dr. Henry Stapp, and you'll see there's actually quite a lot behind it. I don't appreciate the condescension, by the way. I would not hesitate to say that your cursory dismissal of something you, ironically, understand less of than you think seems unwise, as well. And your approach is rather typical, and dull. Can anyone think originally on this stuff? 
I didn't intend to be condescending, sorry if that's how I sounded. I'm also sorry that you found my response "typical" and "dull". If you are not entertained by a concerted effort to explain or understand a particular area of inquiry, with commitment only to the truth and no commitment to trying to sound "original" just for the hell of it, then I'm sure you can find somewhere else to be entertained. Originality doesn't imply accuracy. If you want originality, perhaps try some of the Shroomery art threads..
This is not the first time that you have posted your opinion on a philosophical matter, refused to explain it, or even say why it appeals to you, and continued to rebuke others for disagreeing with you. Will we ever get to hear DQ's thoughts with any real depth or explanation? Why isn't this the place to go into it? If it's relevant to the subject at hand, then we are all ears.
I don't understand quantum physics much more than a housefly. And I have repeated this in these forums ad nauseam. I'm also not the one referencing poorly understood quantum phenomena as the reason for my beliefs on other matters. If you're going to reference it, or even refer to it, then at least explain why it's relevant, or post links or quotes to explanations of specific phenomena.
Edited by secondorder (08/11/15 10:36 PM)
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: secondorder]
#22079918 - 08/12/15 04:51 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Consciousness can create matter. It does so in dreams. In dreams you can touch things as if they were physical.
There's no evidence that matter can create consciousness.
If one is evidently possible and the other is not, doesn't it make more sense to assume that the thing that is possible is more likely to be true?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: secondorder]
#22080523 - 08/12/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I apologize that I was impolite; I was in a rather foul mood last night. Anyway, were I to go into some of Dr. Stapp's ideas, and further how they cross-reference with my own, it would veer severely off-topic and would be too long. Therefore, I really don't care to go into it. Suffice it to say, one can assign a wave function to the brain, and correlate it, quantitatively, between both objective and subjective components. If you're at all interested, it's worth the foray.
"Bell has shown that the statistical predictions of quantum theory are definitely incompatible with the existence of an underlying reality (that resembles the observed world at the macroscopic level) whose spatially separated parts are independent realities linked only by causal dynamical relationships. The spatially separated parts of any underlying reality must be linked in ways that completely transcend the realm of causal dynamical connections. The spatially separated parts of any such underlying reality are not independent realities, in the ordinary sense." --Henry P. Stapp
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
#22081896 - 08/12/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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In dreams you can do a lot of things, one night recently I dreamt that I had started a lucrative tourist industry of feeding sharks via fish pulled over my feet. I acknowledge our rights for different views but I think this idea goes too far over what could be considered realistic.
No evidence for something doesn't confirm it doesn't exist. It confirms there is as of yet no evidence for it so that no definitive claims can be made such as something being possible or not.
From an evolutionary standpoint the entire body has a biological origin including the brain, as our organs have biological origins it's not far fetched to assume their functions have biological origins too. There isn't evidence for this yet but it's a very reasonable assumption. Far more so than a claim of consciousness creating matter which shows no grounds of reasonable assumption.
I'm trying to be respectful but I'd still recommend you reevaluate what is realistically possible.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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nhbeleni
Stranger
Registered: 08/12/15
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? *DELETED* [Re: sudly]
#22082360 - 08/12/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by nhbeleni
Reason for deletion: sads
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: nhbeleni]
#22083648 - 08/12/15 09:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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While we differ in opinions elsewhere, you said 'biology is consciousness' and I'm inclined to agree
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly] 1
#22083825 - 08/12/15 10:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: From an evolutionary standpoint the entire body has a biological origin including the brain, as our organs have biological origins it's not far fetched to assume their functions have biological origins too. There isn't evidence for this yet but it's a very reasonable assumption. Far more so than a claim of consciousness creating matter which shows no grounds of reasonable assumption.
Why do you assume that consciousness is a function of the brain? There is no evidence for this whatsoever.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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yeah


Registered: 02/08/09
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
#22083903 - 08/12/15 11:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Right... all we know is that the brain responds to consciousness
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: yeah]
#22084118 - 08/13/15 12:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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The thing that is being looked at (the world) and the thing that is doing the looking (the consciousness) are the same entity. Call it brain or call it mind instead, then you might say there is no world separate from the nervous system... either way, your state of mind is everything.
So maybe we're asking the wrong question?
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
#22084117 - 08/13/15 12:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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If consciousness builds our bodies, how come it took us 3.5 billions years to become built?
If you don't believe in evolution then our opinions may differ too much to continue being meaningful.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
#22084163 - 08/13/15 12:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: If consciousness builds our bodies, how come it took us 3.5 billions years to become built?
If you don't believe in evolution then our opinions may differ too much to continue being meaningful.
How do you know it took 3.5 billion years to build your body? Why do you believe in time?
I don't have a problem with evolution. But if you continue to make a mass of completely unsupported assumptions about biology I agree that there's little debate, much less meaning, in a conversation with you.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
#22084192 - 08/13/15 12:39 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
#22084203 - 08/13/15 12:42 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Something to note is that if you get your perception right you will be amazed, astounded at the sheer quality, even magic of this world, just after going for a drive through the countryside, hills or rainforest... (I do it a lot)... and I mean completely sober, though I guess I don't really feel sober looking at it.
So these bodies actually evolved out of an almost magical, powerful source (the Earth/Nature). We're not supermarket brand.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
#22084259 - 08/13/15 12:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: viktor]
#22084353 - 08/13/15 01:20 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I believe that time is a man made concept, just as science and religion.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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cubedryeguy
Stranger


Registered: 07/24/15
Posts: 537
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: circastes]
#22084417 - 08/13/15 01:42 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said: Something to note is that if you get your perception right you will be amazed, astounded at the sheer quality, even magic of this world, just after going for a drive through the countryside, hills or rainforest... (I do it a lot)... and I mean completely sober, though I guess I don't really feel sober looking at it.
So these bodies actually evolved out of an almost magical, powerful source (the Earth/Nature). We're not supermarket brand.
Yes yes and more yes. Existence and being aware of your existence is such a wondrous phenomenon. And to think that what we perceive with our eyes is just an interpretation of our mind and not at all what this world really looks like is a humbling thought. To think that the unconscious part of my body can do things that I have no idea how it does it is mind boggling. I don't know all the inner workings of my body and I don't need to in order for them to function properly. They do it on there own! I don't need to tell it to heal it just does. Life is magical.
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