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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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What is the biological origin of consciousness?
    #22061151 - 08/07/15 11:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I've been developing a hypothesis of my own but i'd like to hear your thoughts. preferably not god did it.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22061409 - 08/08/15 02:21 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

My theory teacher called it "the miracle of symbolic capacity". I don't know if that's the answer to question but I always liked that phrase.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #22061425 - 08/08/15 02:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think the world "undergoes the formality of existing" without consciousness.


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TESTED
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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22061548 - 08/08/15 05:11 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Evolution by natural selection.  :grin:  But of course, that is the origin to all biological phenomenon.


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22062048 - 08/08/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Have you ever felt the emptiness from the sense that our identity is a mechanistic confabulation.

A feeling of ultimate mundane and futile existentialism. Like the feeling when you look at a corpse and know that will be you someday.

Envy of those who can still entrance themselves in fantasy.


Edited by Jaegar (08/08/15 09:57 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Jaegar]
    #22062254 - 08/08/15 11:07 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

No.  Atheism and the acknowledgement that the human soul is mortal adds to the mystery and wonder of experience and the universe.  It frees me to create my own meaning out of life, which is far from futile - as opposed to futilely hoping for meaning to be presented to me.  Its empowering and honest.


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22062273 - 08/08/15 11:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don,t find satiety from our pathetic biological program and futility. Especially when the organism nervous system and organs disfunction which is inevitable.

I suppose it's a matter of perspective until the biological mechanisms fail. Dementia, pain and hopelessness.


Edited by Jaegar (08/08/15 11:21 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Jaegar]
    #22062332 - 08/08/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Death anxiety is a bitch, Ill agree with you there.


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Jaegar]
    #22062339 - 08/08/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jaegar said:
Have you ever felt the emptiness from the sense that our identity is a mechanistic confabulation.

A feeling of ultimate mundane and futile existentialism. Like the feeling when you look at a corpse and know that will be you someday.

Envy of those who can still entrance themselves in fantasy.



Well if you only look as far as the knowledge we have up to this point in time and think that's all we'll ever know about life and our place in the universe that thought can get old quick. There is still so much to learn and experience that we are probably standing on the beach with an entire ocean full of knowledge still left to be acquired. Don't fret, we don't know shit.


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22062350 - 08/08/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I think greater knowledge of how we function might not be soothing and empowering as some may imagine.

I cannot fathom the changes in social circumstances and order but it probably isn,t all roses.


Edited by Jaegar (08/08/15 11:41 AM)


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22062432 - 08/08/15 12:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Could be.  Or we may not even be able to comprehend a great amount of knowledge until our consciousness evolves further and possibly allows us to. I'm sure it's not all roses but I wouldn't be surprised if half of it is...


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22062459 - 08/08/15 12:10 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure you understand evolution to well.

It will be a long time before we can manipulate our own biology in any dramatic ways.


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Jaegar]
    #22062491 - 08/08/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Well I was speaking of the very far off future of humanity as long long as we don't go extinct before then. However our brain size grew in apparently a relatively short amount of time so who knows for sure.


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Jaegar]
    #22062492 - 08/08/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

We are the universe experiencing itself ! An ultimate cosmic conciousness is all that is will be or ever was or atleast thats how i look at it but there are things human language and perception just can't fathom the universe is sooo complex


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54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #22062498 - 08/08/15 12:22 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

O jeebus. So that's what it all about.


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22062502 - 08/08/15 12:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I could be getting my wording and thoughts missed up if so sorry. Is Saturday and my consciousness is altered :stoned:


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22062566 - 08/08/15 12:41 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
No.  Atheism and the acknowledgement that the human soul is mortal adds to the mystery and wonder of experience and the universe.  It frees me to create my own meaning out of life, which is far from futile - as opposed to futilely hoping for meaning to be presented to me.  Its empowering and honest.




you could make up any excuse to feel good about yourself.  given that our understanding of consciousness and the extra dimensions of the universe (and how they might play a role in our experience) is extremely limited, it seems that any acknowledgement of a "human soul" and any knowledge one thinks they have of it and death and the universe is based on the same kind of faith that religious people use to justify their pointless belief systems.


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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #22063044 - 08/08/15 03:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'd postulate that a formal faculty (brain), and a faculty for tactile manipulation (opposable thumbs) describes many of the things we are conscious of in the world. Supposing it would be reasonable to follow the phenomenologist's criteria that consciousness is in the character of "intentionality", (consciousness is being directed towards some object)  I would say it is possible to find a biological thesis relative to this.

Kant only considered a formal faculty of consciousness in sensory experience. Do we say there is something beyond this? Perhaps not, but what if there were other a priori "faculties"? What if that Kantian faculty for phenomena, as often criticized, did not reach out enough to the world, or "things in themselves" and what we really found was the tactile faculty that accomplished this physical intimation? What if philosophers lived too much behind their eyes? Is a matrice of "space and time" as the philosopher says, really our conception of physis?

This would not be exhaustive of course, but to philosophers two biological faculties could perhaps stand out, to correspond to episteme (as knowledge in formal capacity), and techne (as handi-craft, in tactile capacity). It would be possible to further extrapolate our world from them, similar to how Kant had a priori in a single faculty, and maybe this could be a more rigorous "critique", as put.

These terms are perrenial. Plato called techne a bias, or at least a marginal knowledge basis. This was probably symptomatic of Greek society, in which he found the position of artisans to be less "noble" or virtuous than the disinvolved understanding of episteme. Whether "justified" or not, he or his interpreters marginalized the tactile faculty, for theoretical removal, and I would theorize, that this leads to how it becomes found in our society, in its inevitable, alien recursion.

Of course much as we might like to escape something so "rudimental" I would speculate, that an extrapolated, and hidden or marginal, and above all truly powerful faculty of physical intimation is something we both consciously and unconsciously tend to abstract into conscious human existence: as technology.

It becomes found in "knowledge" in our world, in whatever manner of circumspection we may have of it. Knowledge itself, is mainly found in the maxim of Baconian physical science, as "power", in what it is externalized in. In the lever or pully or button, or whatever utility enacts physical force, this is the particular manner of causal coherence that we call physics a priori, just as much as space and time.

The power points are difficult to find and always defended, most of all by opaqueness and obscurity, as the hidden and removed place of techne and its analyses. Techne is what is marginalized, and what comes back with a vengeance.

Our methodological pursuits; even today, as they represent increasingly far out cosmologies, are based on these mechanics. Society and human existence remains structured by these mechanics, when power goes all to one minute place of trigger and release (I recall Terrence Mckenna once saying something like that).

In any case; consciousness, I would argue, is some manner of the description of these two a priori faculties of human existence, and what I am suggesting is a biological basis to ground them. Consciousness is what is arising out of our unique hands (handicraft) and our unique brains (knowledge), and how we assert them in an embodied way, as power, or in such a biological drive, as described.

This thesis could indicate either our intimacy or alienation from the physicality of existence as the art of techne, or as conscious awareness, ie. in our wisdom in reflecting on this in general. Perhaps we seek an appropriate synthesis of these faculties?

Such a synthesis would not necessarily be found in a third corresponding faculty, so perhaps it is not "necessary" to seek that speculative intimation. It would only be the necessary and sufficient power of these faculties that stands out, as naturally selected bases.

So, yeah that'd be a speculation/theory.

Here is an extended discussion on techne and episteme:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/episteme-techne/


Edited by Kurt (08/08/15 09:32 PM)


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: Kurt]
    #22063264 - 08/08/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
A formal faculty (brain), and a faculty for tactile manipulation (opposable thumbs) describes many of the things we are conscious of in the world.  IE. I would follow the criteria that consciousness is define as intentionality,  what it is conscious of, and consider relative to this. I would take the biological thesis, as coloring this, a priori, as faculties.

Kant only considered a formal faculty of consciousness. What if there were others?

This would not be exhaustive of course: To philosophers, these biological faculties could correspond to episteme (knowledge as formal capacity), and techne (handi-craft, as tactile capacity), and it would be possible to further extrapolate our world from this.

Notably Plato called techne a bias, or at least a marginal basis of knowledge. This was probably symptomatic of Greek society in which found the position of artisans to be less noble than disinvolved understanding as episteme. Hence whether or justified or not, he marginalized the tactile faculty, and I would theorize, that this leads to how it becomes in our society, in its inevitable recursion (of course we would be unable to escape something so rudimentally founded in us as a biological faculty) a hidden, and alienated, and truly powerful faculty that we both consciously and unconsciously tend to abstract from human existence: or technology.

Knowledge itself, is mainly found in the conception of Baconian physical science, as power. It is what is externalized in the lever or pully or button, or what ever utility enacts physical force. The power points are difficult to find and always defended, most of all by opaqueness and obscurity, as the hidden and removed place of techne and its analyses.

Our methodological pursuits; even today, as they represent increasingly strange cosmologies, are based on these mechanics. Of course, society and human existence remains structured by these mechanics.

In any case; consciousness, I would argue, is some manner of the description of these two faculties of human existence, that have biological basis. It is what is arising out of our unique hands (handicraft) and our unique brains (knowledge), and how we assert this as power, or in such a drive as it may be described.

This of course, could indicate either our intimacy or alienation from the physicality of existence as awareness, and our wisdom in reflecting on that. Perhaps we seek an appropriate synthesis of these faculties, and yet such a synthesis would not necessarily be found in a third corresponding faculty, so perhaps it is not necessary to seek. It is the necessary and sufficient power of these faculties that stands out, as naturally selected bases.

So, yeah, some speculations.

Here is a small three fold rubric on the philosophical basis in Aristotle:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/episteme-techne/
http://www.applitude.se/2011/02/aristotle%E2%80%99s-three-types-of-knowledge/

Here is a two fold discussion:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/episteme-techne/



Excellent thoughts  :seriousthumbsup:


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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

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Re: What is the biological origin of consciousness? [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #22063279 - 08/08/15 03:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

:cheers:


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