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OfflineN05482
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schizophrenia and psilocybin?
    #22055546 - 08/06/15 08:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

So I can't find what I'm looking for so I figured I'd ask the smartest community on the webs about the subject at hand.

my 23 year old younger sister suffers from schizophrenia  She hears voices, fixates on irrelevant ideas or fears, and is convinced she's always at fault. She'll apologise for an earth quake. It's not like it's an everyday problem, but it is a problem.

she's been taking 1mg of abilify for a while now. It seems to keep her well managed but there are still some major trigger issues and thought processes that need work. I'm curious if anyone has any experience with schizophrenia and psilocybin?

I've read about psilocybins ability to make new neural path ways, potentially good bad or indifferent. I cannot find any studies done on the subject of schizophrenia and psilocybin, if anybody has, please drop a link

I've experimented with micro dosing at 1mg cyans for 30 days felt no ill effect but also no significant positive effect. although it's hard to judge my own actions, what becomes natural won't feel different.

I'm wondering if with some coaching and micro dosing perhaps even just a few guided trips could help her reprogram her brain.

My hopes ate not to just drug up my sister and hope she's okay, I'd like to find a way to help her integrate into a normal adult life. If anyone has suggestions I'd love to hear.


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OfflineLove_spirit
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482]
    #22055641 - 08/06/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Never heard of shrooms curing schizophrenia. I've seen it cause it. Do you have a source for this idea?


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Offlinetryptkaloids
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Love_spirit]
    #22055689 - 08/06/15 09:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

it could do the opposite of help. it could throw off her psychological balance. on the other hand you could be onto something. it might help who knows. I'll ask my psychonautic schizophrenic friend and get back to you


--------------------
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OfflineN05482
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: tryptkaloids]
    #22056341 - 08/07/15 01:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Here's an article about the potential for use in psychotherapy

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/09/trip-treatment

And one on the way the connection of neurons is increased

http://www.iflscience.com/brain/magic-mushroom-chemical-hyper-connects-brain

These and many similar articles are are what lead me to believe that there may be more to it then what I've found. And I'm wondering if there's anyone able to lead me in the right direction, or give some useful advice or information.

Again I fully understand the risks involved in psycho active drugs and mental conditions, I have no intentions of giving her anything anytime soon.

This is merely a way to think aloud, and converse with those who find interest in the idea.

I'm a believer in the healing power of fungus and wanna see something I believe in help someone I love.


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OfflinePed
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482] * 1
    #22056674 - 08/07/15 04:55 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Schizophrenia is a complex illness about which very little is understood.  At the present time, research into the illness has centred around abnormalities with how the prefrontal cortex communicates with itself and the rest of the brain.  The prefrontal cortex has a role in short term memory, emotional and behavioural regulation, judgement and problem solving, concentration, and awareness. People suffering from schizophrenia have been found to have reduced innervation between the frontal cortices and the rest of the brain, i.e., fewer physical pathways for neurotransmission.

Superficially, it might appear as though psilocybin mushrooms could be useful there.  After all, if schizophrenia involves inadequate signalling between the frontal lobe and the rest of the brain, and if psilocybin mushrooms increase the brain's interconnectivity, that sounds like a cure, right?  Unfortunately that's not the case.  The prefrontal cortex becomes dysfunctional in schizophrenics in part because of abnormal concentrations of an excitatory neurotransmitter called glutamate.  Glutamate release in the prefrontal cortex is mediated by a serotonin receptor called 5-HT2A, which is also the primary target site of psilocybin and most other psychedelic drugs.  Knocking on this receptor causes glutamate concentrations in the prefrontal cortex to increase.  If that occurs in someone with schizophrenia, they are liable to get much worse.

Psilocybin mushrooms probably have a role in psychotherapy.  They probably do not have a role in neuropsychiatric disorders, i.e., brain disorders, and their use where brain disorders are present is most likely to aggravate the existing condition.


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InvisibleBayerPhi
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Ped] * 1
    #22056708 - 08/07/15 05:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Here's a pdf you may find useful in gaining knowledge and understanding as try to better your sister's condition and well being.
Relying on these 'science' articles may push you to a misinformed place. Sort of a "can't see the forest for the trees" scenario.

http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/8/3/189.full

The pdf looks overwhelming at first but break it into small parts, and you'll have it figured out.  As you look up what you need to, you will learn more thoroughly.


Edited by BayerPhi (08/07/15 06:07 AM)


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482] * 1
    #22056724 - 08/07/15 05:24 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, don't be giving your sis any shroomys. It could make things worse for her.


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InvisibleBayerPhi
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #22056736 - 08/07/15 05:32 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Hell, it makes things worse for some of the 'normal' people on here.


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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: BayerPhi]
    #22056749 - 08/07/15 05:43 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

:lol: Good point.


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Offlinedaz01
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Le_Canard] * 1
    #22057480 - 08/07/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Schizophrenic here. Psilocybin has never caused me problems with my illness, both temporary and chronically.
It was the psycho-stimulants that fucked me up.


BUT... I would not take the risk. it might make someone else worse.


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482]
    #22058135 - 08/07/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The results of experimenting on schizophrenics with psychedelics is considered unpredictable, and of dubious benefit.  Researchers seem to try really hard to eliminate subjects with a mental illness history from their experiments.  The prevailing theory is that the possible bad would outweigh the possible good.     

It's also very difficult to study schizophrenics who self report psychedelic use, because they are generally difficult to work with, in that they often have bad insight into their own condition, don't show up to appointments, lie, confabulate, don't take prescribed medications, and many have polysubstance abuse issues.  Since schizophrenia isn't very well understood on its own, it's pretty difficult to even guess what effect a psychedelic had in the past on someone with the disorder.


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OfflineN05482
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Hippocampus]
    #22058412 - 08/07/15 11:58 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Thanx ped you are kinda exactly one of the kinds of people I wanted to hear from on this, your knowledge and insight is infinity valuable.

And Bayer phi thanks for the link, it's been about 3 years since she was diagnosed do I've read quite extensively into the topic, but I'm happy to peruse the info for something I may have not paid enough attention too before.

I understand that there are great risks over benefit, I've been considering that potentially someone who's dealt with delusions while sober and was able to overcome them may also have some tools to deal with a bad trip better than those of us without experience.

Daz01 would you mind elaborating on your experience?


--------------------
Have a nice day!    psilocybe cyanescens time lapse


Edited by N05482 (08/07/15 12:03 PM)


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Invisibleeeso
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482]
    #22058790 - 08/07/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I have a type of schizophrenia and have NEVER had a good mushroom trip.


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OfflineN05482
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: eeso]
    #22059477 - 08/07/15 04:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Can you elaborate on the types of trips you did have and the resulting effects?


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482]
    #22061444 - 08/08/15 02:55 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

It's weird for me, I have a diagnosis of schizophrenia, which I blame on cannabis. However, I have had quite a few REALLY positive mushroom trips whilst unknowingly schizophrenic. I later took some with medication, and there must have been a really bad interaction because I was utterly depressed / 'flattened' in 'affect' for a good 3 months. Then later I did it again, who knows why, and it was just sorta trippy, no real mood change, no bad after effects. Recently I've smoked ice, maybe 10 times, in about 20 weeks, because I was hoping for some sort of holiday from my low mood (which persists) and I'm yet to have any sort of aggravation of schizophrenia or any unwanted side effects during or after the meth high. In fact I'm better than ever.

It's not black and white. Who knows what schizophrenia is.

For me, my schizophrenia, it has something to do with cannabis.


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Offlinetryptkaloids
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: circastes]
    #22062268 - 08/08/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

i don't think cannabis can make someone schizophrenic...


--------------------
"Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage
Flowchart for Recommended plan of action.
Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms
Use the Damn search engine
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Pick a book, Make some chips!
Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
 


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Offlinedaz01
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: tryptkaloids]
    #22062318 - 08/08/15 11:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

tryptkaloids said:
i don't think cannabis can make someone schizophrenic...




THC has widely been regarded as psychosomatic and increase chance of developing mental illnesses.


--------------------
Pain is temporary. It may last for a minute or an hour or a day or even a year but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it will last forever.


Edited by daz01 (08/08/15 11:31 AM)


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OfflineN05482
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: daz01]
    #22062427 - 08/08/15 12:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

So I get the cannabis thing, my sister it's very sensitive to certain strains. She smokes og kush for personal cause she says it helps slow her brain down. But give her a sativa dominant strain and she will become paranoid, stressed out, and uncomfortable. I don't think it caused her schizophrenia but it certainly can agitate it.

I'm interested by the fact that you circastes had good trips before knowing and taking meds.

My sister tried some shrooms once years ago before she was diagnosed and she had a good time. She was with some friends and split an eighth with her bf, She wandered the woods with some friends at night. Called me at 3am asking if I knew where I was so she could find me. Wound up being just fine that night but hasn't tried it since.

Id be concerned that the abilify and shrooms may have a bad reaction.

The meth though I'm not at all versed in so I'll leave that one alone. No judgement.


--------------------
Have a nice day!    psilocybe cyanescens time lapse


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InvisibleBayerPhi
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: daz01]
    #22062438 - 08/08/15 12:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daz01 said:
Quote:

tryptkaloids said:
i don't think cannabis can make someone schizophrenic...




THC has widely been regarded as psychosomatic and increase chance of developing mental illnesses.




... to people who were already susceptible to these mental illnesses. AKA runs in their family history.

THC can't make one schizophrenic. It can only bring out preexisting schizophrenic, or schizotypal personality disorders.


If you won the genetic lottery of not having any proneness to mental illnesses then these drugs can't exacerbate it in that aspect.  That isn't to say that over doing any psychoactive drug won't lead to a temporary fit of insanity/delusions, or mild mental instability in a normal person. As they most certainly will and do.
Then there are those who will say, "I have such and such diagnosis but when I did it, it didn't effect me."  Then there will be the ones with the same diagnosis who do it, and it leaves them in shambles.

Just be careful and make thoughtful decisions.


EDIT: Just read the post above mine. That abilify is more than likely saving her life and mental stability from a paranoia induce mushroom trip while at the same time mellowing out the entire trip with its antagonistic properties.  The absolute worse thing is for her to believe the mushrooms have fixed her, and abruptly quit her medication.
It will be like a building imploding and collapsing on itself.
For you: http://psychopharmacologyinstitute.com/antipsychotics/aripiprazole/mechanism-of-action-aripiprazole/


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Edited by BayerPhi (08/08/15 12:11 PM)


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Offlinedaz01
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: BayerPhi] * 1
    #22062486 - 08/08/15 12:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Whether it makes people more susceptible or causes it directly, they are both the same things.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: daz01]
    #22065653 - 08/09/15 02:49 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I think the book Marijuana and Madness seems to conclude it takes pre-existing mental illness or a genetic susceptibility to trigger it. But my fucking god, does it trigger it. I've never had a bad acid trip, actually I've never had an acid trip at all (that got through the medication), but from what people describe, this is effectively where I end up - in a bad acid trip, without the visuals. Purely cognitive.

Wow. It was scary, my first psychotic breakdown on weed. The Apocalypse - I can safely say I'm prepared mentally for it.

:undecided:


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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: circastes]
    #22074296 - 08/10/15 11:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

schizophrenic here. also on abilify, though a 400mg depot monthly. Dropped 3g psilocybin last month, effects were almost completely blocked by the abilify, no visuals etc. Also hear voices, which I feel and believe to be of god/guardian angels. Voices have definitely faded since getting started on the abilify. She may require a larger dose of shrooms to experience the effects whilst on the abilify.

I have taken LSD 3 times whilst on the abilify/since diagnosis with positive effects. have not had as intense visuals as prior to starting on the meds, but feel more connected with myself, others and the universe.

maybe meditation could be something of interest to her, especially during a mushroom/lsd trip, always found this to be beneficial to me.


Edited by ZombieMode (08/10/15 11:06 PM)


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: ZombieMode]
    #22074748 - 08/11/15 03:01 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

So LSD worked for you while on Abilify? Interesting. I got nothing.


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OfflineZombieMode
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: circastes]
    #22074817 - 08/11/15 04:27 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

took around 250ug, wasn't as intense as it should be, had a body high and heard voices again, minor visuals :smile:


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OfflineN05482
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: ZombieMode]
    #22093135 - 08/14/15 11:59 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Has anyone been on risperidone? She was on that for a few years and that's when she had her first trip. Since she switched we've noticed she's more alert and functions better. but if there's canceling effect with abilify I wonder if a small dose might cause internal effects with no noticeable hallucinations.

Zombiemode did you notice any more internal mental effects without the visuals. Also what species did you take and how?


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482]
    #22094015 - 08/15/15 08:39 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I was on Risperidone, also Paliperidone, the metabolite of Risperidone. Both were quite groggy and sedating, and raised prolactin. Abilify is supposed to be non-sedating and I find it that way. I have no paranoia but I had none before I started too. My main issue now is motivation. Abilify isn't really doing much for that. (They were considering clozapine which is great for motivation issues but I apparently deny I have schizophrenia and attribute symptoms to a brain injury, and they won't start clozapine without insight and commitment)


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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: circastes]
    #22094047 - 08/15/15 08:52 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Oh yeah and to justify my meth use, there are no good MDMA pills in Australia anymore and my mood has been so low as to leave me in bed all day, it's getting better all the time, but head injuries (note I didn't say schizophrenia) are unpredictable and sometimes I just want a holiday from it all. It's too expensive to get addicted to, you have to become a dealer to make the cash to smoke daily. FORGIVE ME :justdontknow:


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OfflineN05482
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: circastes]
    #22094376 - 08/15/15 10:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Thanx for the insight, the high prolactin levels were why she stopped the risperidone, we haven't discussed clozapine though. Perhaps next time we see her doc we can talk, she suffers lack of motivation as well, though it could just be circumstances as of late.

And feel no need to justify your recreational use of anything, I would not be here asking for information and insight if I planned on being judgmental. To each their own.

Have you noticed any difference in the way things affect you while on the abilify vs when you were on risperidone?


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Have a nice day!    psilocybe cyanescens time lapse


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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482]
    #22097548 - 08/16/15 04:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

N05482 said:
Has anyone been on risperidone? She was on that for a few years and that's when she had her first trip. Since she switched we've noticed she's more alert and functions better. but if there's canceling effect with abilify I wonder if a small dose might cause internal effects with no noticeable hallucinations.

Zombiemode did you notice any more internal mental effects without the visuals. Also what species did you take and how?




on the shrooms, not so much, LSD definitely. took psilocybin cubensis mixed with orange juice and drank. this was after around 3 months of 400 depot abilify.


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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482]
    #22102775 - 08/17/15 01:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

your sister should stop being treated for schizophrenia and instead get a job and boyfriend like anyone else

shrooms may give her a positive out look but  more nervous reactions or no change at all

better then blood pressure pills tho...


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Konyap]
    #22103212 - 08/17/15 03:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

u what m8


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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Konyap]
    #22104091 - 08/17/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure if your being serious or not? I'm not sure if you understand the condition either, stopping treatment and being like everyone else would be optimal, but unfortunately like missing a leg you can't just get up and walk like everybody else.

Thanks for the input though.


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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482]
    #22105534 - 08/18/15 06:42 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

of course not
people would have to reassociate her with not being a fucking autistic


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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Konyap]
    #22105681 - 08/18/15 07:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

:justdontknow:


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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Konyap]
    #22106574 - 08/18/15 12:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Not that it's my place to judge or diagnose but based on your posts, hers a link that may help you learn a lil more about your self.

http://aspergersquiz.com/

Again thanks for the input.


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Have a nice day!    psilocybe cyanescens time lapse


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Offlineakosi
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: N05482]
    #22126606 - 08/22/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Instead of dopamine blockers, taking serotonergics can help a lot.  I don't have experience with prescription ssris but had great luck drinking a tea of st. john's wort at around 6 grams a day during my spiel of psychosis and paranoia, voices etc...  worked like a charm and probably healed my serotonin receptors because I felt a lot more grounded after stopping after a month long regimen.  6 grams of the herb in tea is equivalent to probably more than what a bottle of the extract would recommend, you can feel the effects instantly when high dosing and the state of awareness can be profound to those who are feeling "ungrounded".


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: akosi]
    #22126620 - 08/22/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

does that repair the energy centers in my brain?


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Offlineakosi
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Konyap]
    #22126771 - 08/22/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

not sure what you mean by energy centers, but st. john's wort has been shown to increase the number of serotonin receptors, and even restructure the individual receptor affinities (which may be messed up from mdma or ssri overuse, 5ht1a being strongly upregulated as a protectice mechanism from mdma serotonin toxicity for example).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK92750/

"The mechanism by which hyperforin has been shown to act is therefore different from that used by conventional antidepressants, perhaps pointing the way to a new class of antidepressants (Leuner et al. 2007). Hyperforin also increases the number of 5-HT receptors, as demonstrated by studies on rat brains (Teufel-Meyer and Gleitz 1997), suggesting a possible long-term therapeutic benefit of SJW treatment. "


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Offlineakosi
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: akosi]
    #22126782 - 08/22/15 01:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

and serotonin -> dopamine have an inverse relationship, by increasing 5-ht (serotonin) levels you are indirectly decreasing dopamine levels.

High dopamine levels is linked to schizophrenia which is why dopamine blockers are so prescribed for psychosis and schizophrenia.  The issue is dopamine blockers cause all sorts of side effects, depression, making one feel like a zombie, and the large increases of prolactin are a few.  Having no dopamine sucks also.

Taking a serotonergic like St. john's wort indirectly reduces the dopamine and accomplishes the same thing but without the side effects.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: akosi]
    #22127909 - 08/22/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

that's amazing

im dead


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: Konyap]
    #22134927 - 08/24/15 10:40 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

That's interesting about St. Johns Wort, thanks.


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My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Offlinedaz01
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Registered: 09/30/10
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Re: schizophrenia and psilocybin? [Re: circastes]
    #22134994 - 08/24/15 10:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Be careful with St. Johns Wort. It is reported to also increase dopamine levels and worsen psychosis symptoms.


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Pain is temporary. It may last for a minute or an hour or a day or even a year but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it will last forever.


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