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GNU_NOT_UNIX
Digital Triptonaught

Registered: 08/02/15
Posts: 5
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring
#22033485 - 08/02/15 01:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hello, I've been doing research and reading a handful of guides, and I cannot quite conclude whether or not this would be a good idea. I currently have 2 near complete cakes, and I've been reading that in one's fruiting chamber, they should spread vermiculite on the bottom so as to preserve humidity in the terrarium. However, I was wondering if I was to prepare a mix of the same ingredients as the cakes, and spread that out on the bottom, then place the cakes on top of that, would that enable the mycelium to spread across the entire floor of the container? Or is there a malicious effect I am unaware of? I am pumping mist into my terrarium, and filter out the CO2 from another valve, so I can keep the entire container well humidified. Sorry if this is a stupid question that has been asked several times before, I'm relatively new to the trade of growing, and I failed to hunt it down with the search function.
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WolfieNuke
Professional Psychonaut



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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: GNU_NOT_UNIX]
#22033516 - 08/02/15 01:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
GNU_NOT_UNIX said: However, I was wondering if I was to prepare a mix of the same ingredients as the cakes, and spread that out on the bottom, then place the cakes on top of that, would that enable the mycelium to spread across the entire floor of the container? Or is there a malicious effect I am unaware of?
No, no no... If you do what you are saying you will grow lots and lots of - MOLD and BACTERIA!!!
Perlite, NOT VERMICULITE, is used to retain and release moisture due to the microporous structure and large surface area. Vermiculite is used in cakes, not the fruiting chamber (at least when cakes are concerned).
Edited by WolfieNuke (08/02/15 01:29 PM)
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bluegill
intergalactic toejam



Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 489
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: WolfieNuke]
#22033540 - 08/02/15 01:32 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sounds like you want to spawn your cakes to bulk, but using vermiculite for that really is NOT a good idea for your first grow. It will likely end up contaminating.
Continue to follow the PF tek guide by birthing the cakes and fruiting them as cakes in a shotgun fruiting chamber with a thick layer of perlite. You will need to place the cakes on lids and misting/fanning at least twice per day after they go in.
edit: go here and watch part 3
http://www.mushroomvideos.com/BRF-Pf-Tek
-------------------- "Psychedelics are like carnival tickets, you buy the ticket and take the ride, then you get off and go home. What your talking about is physical death. That's when you're pulled into the carnival against your will and your stuck there for eternity."
Edited by bluegill (08/02/15 01:37 PM)
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: GNU_NOT_UNIX]
#22033547 - 08/02/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
GNU_NOT_UNIX said: and I've been reading that in one's fruiting chamber, they should spread vermiculite on the bottom so as to preserve humidity in the terrarium.
Perlite, not verm.
But then the perlite will only aid in RH if you drill the proper holes in the chamber, 1/4" holes every 2" in a grid pattern on all 6 sides.
Quote:
GNU_NOT_UNIX said: However, I was wondering if I was to prepare a mix of the same ingredients as the cakes, and spread that out on the bottom, then place the cakes on top of that, would that enable the mycelium to spread across the entire floor of the container?
No, it would contam quicker than shit.
Quote:
GNU_NOT_UNIX said: Or is there a malicious effect I am unaware of? I am pumping mist into my terrarium, and filter out the CO2 from another valve, so I can keep the entire container well humidified.
None of that makes humidity, there is no need to "pump in mist", nor is there a need to "filter out co2".
This is going to sound harsh, but it is needed.
Forget EVERYTHING you thought you knew about growing mushrooms and watch these videos.(also read the pages)
www.mushroomvideos.com
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 17 days, 23 hours
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: bluegill]
#22033550 - 08/02/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
bluegill said: Sounds like you want to spawn your cakes to bulk, but that really is NOT a good idea for your first grow. It will likely end up contaminating.
Not true at all.....bulk is fine for a first grow.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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bluegill
intergalactic toejam



Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 489
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: PussyFart]
#22033559 - 08/02/15 01:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
PussyFart said:
Quote:
bluegill said: Sounds like you want to spawn your cakes to bulk, but that really is NOT a good idea for your first grow. It will likely end up contaminating.
Not true at all.....bulk is fine for a first grow.
Sorry, I was referring the the vermiculite idea.
-------------------- "Psychedelics are like carnival tickets, you buy the ticket and take the ride, then you get off and go home. What your talking about is physical death. That's when you're pulled into the carnival against your will and your stuck there for eternity."
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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



Registered: 10/16/14
Posts: 18,802
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: bluegill]
#22033607 - 08/02/15 01:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Verm doesn't harbor contams. That's why we use it as a filter for our cakes. It's actually quite good at blocking it out BUT it doesn't hold water in the same way Perlite does.
Perlite works by holding on to the water in tiny surface cracks. If you pick up a piece of perlite you can kind of feel that it's not a smooth rock, more rough around the edges. This helps trap moisture which the air from below pulls up into the SGFC. This creates humidity. Air moving keeps the air fresh, not a CO2 pump or any of that stuff.
What does harbor contams would be that exposed BRF.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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GNU_NOT_UNIX
Digital Triptonaught

Registered: 08/02/15
Posts: 5
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: PussyFart]
#22033616 - 08/02/15 01:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
PussyFart said: This is going to sound harsh, but it is needed.
Forget EVERYTHING you thought you knew about growing mushrooms and watch these videos.(also read the pages)
www.mushroomvideos.com
Perilite. Meant to say perilite. My bad brain fart. Anyways thank you. I'd rather be told I'm wrong about everything than be wrong about everything in practice. Thanks for the tips and videos everyone.
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bluegill
intergalactic toejam



Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 489
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: taGyo]
#22033628 - 08/02/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
taGyo said: Verm doesn't harbor contams. That's why we use it as a filter for our cakes. It's actually quite good at blocking it out BUT it doesn't hold water in the same way Perlite does.
Perlite works by holding on to the water in tiny surface cracks. If you pick up a piece of perlite you can kind of feel that it's not a smooth rock, more rough around the edges. This helps trap moisture which the air from below pulls up into the SGFC. This creates humidity. Air moving keeps the air fresh, not a CO2 pump or any of that stuff.
What does harbor contams would be that exposed BRF.
It will in fact harbor contams. I lost a recent batch of cakes to forest green mold when half of them were re-rolled. The rest of them are on their 3rd/4th flush now. OP make sure you bake your verm before rolling if you don't want contams.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: It wasn't the verm since you sterilized it when you sterilized the rest of the contents of the jars.
Verm doesn't go bad-it's a mineral. It will however, harbor contaminant spores if the bag has been open for awhile, so if using it for the roll, you should bake it on a cookie sheet for half an hour or so to kill any spores. RR
-------------------- "Psychedelics are like carnival tickets, you buy the ticket and take the ride, then you get off and go home. What your talking about is physical death. That's when you're pulled into the carnival against your will and your stuck there for eternity."
Edited by bluegill (08/02/15 01:53 PM)
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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: bluegill]
#22033705 - 08/02/15 02:22 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
bluegill said:
Quote:
taGyo said: Verm doesn't harbor contams. That's why we use it as a filter for our cakes. It's actually quite good at blocking it out BUT it doesn't hold water in the same way Perlite does.
Perlite works by holding on to the water in tiny surface cracks. If you pick up a piece of perlite you can kind of feel that it's not a smooth rock, more rough around the edges. This helps trap moisture which the air from below pulls up into the SGFC. This creates humidity. Air moving keeps the air fresh, not a CO2 pump or any of that stuff.
What does harbor contams would be that exposed BRF.
It will in fact harbor contams. I lost a recent batch of cakes to forest green mold when half of them were re-rolled. The rest of them are on their 3rd/4th flush now. OP make sure you bake your verm before rolling if you don't want contams.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: It wasn't the verm since you sterilized it when you sterilized the rest of the contents of the jars.
Verm doesn't go bad-it's a mineral. It will however, harbor contaminant spores if the bag has been open for awhile, so if using it for the roll, you should bake it on a cookie sheet for half an hour or so to kill any spores. RR
Because you re-rolled a cake lol. Don't blame the verm for user error. Not many people sterilize or oven their verm anymore. I've never done it and verm has never been the cause of any of my contams. My verm stays in my attic where it gets to about 100 degrees during the summer. I bet I can pull some out now and use it as a dry verm layer with no problems.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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bluegill
intergalactic toejam



Registered: 11/05/13
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: taGyo]
#22033815 - 08/02/15 02:45 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
taGyo said: Because you re-rolled a cake lol. Don't blame the verm for user error. Not many people sterilize or oven their verm anymore. I've never done it and verm has never been the cause of any of my contams. My verm stays in my attic where it gets to about 100 degrees during the summer. I bet I can pull some out now and use it as a dry verm layer with no problems.
Dry verm barrier gets sterilized when you PC it so it doesn't need to be baked. You can do what you want, but I learned my lesson trial and error. Not all of the cakes were re-rolled, either; some were rolled for the first time, very healthy mycelium growths. I can guarantee it was the verm since I didn't bake it.
-------------------- "Psychedelics are like carnival tickets, you buy the ticket and take the ride, then you get off and go home. What your talking about is physical death. That's when you're pulled into the carnival against your will and your stuck there for eternity."
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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



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Posts: 18,802
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: bluegill]
#22034126 - 08/02/15 04:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Okay brotha. Rolling on the second flush regardless is asking for contams.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
Edited by taGyo (08/02/15 04:00 PM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: GNU_NOT_UNIX]
#22034146 - 08/02/15 04:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
GNU_NOT_UNIX said:
Perilite. Meant to say perilite. My bad brain fart.
his name is pussyfart
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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GNU_NOT_UNIX
Digital Triptonaught

Registered: 08/02/15
Posts: 5
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: cronicr]
#22034216 - 08/02/15 04:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said:
Quote:
GNU_NOT_UNIX said:
Perilite. Meant to say perilite. My bad brain fart.
his name is pussyfart
Oh no lol you misunderstood, I meant as in I had a brain fart.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: GNU_NOT_UNIX]
#22034223 - 08/02/15 04:17 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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lol i know my man i was just kidding
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: cronicr]
#22034232 - 08/02/15 04:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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the problem with re rolling isnt' hat's i the verm you roll in but the micro climate provided for the mold spores already on your weakened cake
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: cronicr]
#22034249 - 08/02/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've never baked my verm lol. By the time I started no one was doing it.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: taGyo]
#22034253 - 08/02/15 04:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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weather you bake it or not is sort of irrelevant when we you are re rolling after the first flush
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: cronicr]
#22034276 - 08/02/15 04:27 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's what I was saying lol.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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bluegill
intergalactic toejam



Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 489
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: taGyo]
#22035136 - 08/02/15 08:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: weather you bake it or not is sort of irrelevant when we you are re rolling after the first flush
There were cakes that I re-rolled right after first flush. There were also cakes that were just birthed and rolled for the first time. All got contams simultaneously literally 2 days later except the cakes that were not rolled. I would not be so quick to attribute contamination to genetics/weak cakes. I used to be right there with the majority on not baking verm, but I'm not so sure after this. There is a reason why RR recommends it in his video and on the forums.
Here are some things I have learned about vermiculite that may be important for cultivation purposes:
- Verm exposed to the air harbors contam spores and germs.
- Dry verm discourages fungal growth by alkalinity and dryness.
- Verm has a pH that varies (can be neutral or high in alkalinity).
- Verm has nutrients that support fungal growth.
- Contams can and do germinate on the verm barrier, especially with moisture.
Sources:
Link on the pH of verm: http://www.schundler.com/pH.htm
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Contrary to popular misconception, vermiculite does have nutrients that support fungi growth. In my experience it's hard for spores to germinate on it, but once they do, they'll take it over like any other bulk substrate material. Regardless, you need to get rid of contaminated substrates if growing indoors. Next time, be sure to bake the verm in the oven for an hour or so to kill off any mold spores. It's possible there were contaminant spores on the verm, and then it came into contact with grains, which made a hospitable place to germinate. RR
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: If it's just on the top layer, you're going to wash that off anyway after birthing. I'd go ahead and take it outside to birth and do the rinsing with a garden hose. Just keep an eye on it in the terrarium and toss if necessary.
It's common for mold to start to form on top of the verm layer, especially if it gets damp, either from being in an incubator or left covered with foil, both of which are discouraged. RR
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Since the mold is away from your inoculation site and near the top, I'd look at your vermiculite filter. It could be damp, which allows contaminants to colonize through it to the substrate below. RR
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: If the verm layer is wet, it could be a mold. RR
Edited by bluegill (08/02/15 08:14 PM)
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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: bluegill]
#22035205 - 08/02/15 08:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sounds like you had a contam during colonization and didn't notice
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: taGyo]
#22035214 - 08/02/15 08:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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going to have to agree, just because your fc harbours way more contams then your verm would and the minute you pull the verm from the oven it's no longer sterile anymore anyway, alwyas good to err on the side of caution but iwouldnt' blame the verm i'd blame the micro climate
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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bluegill
intergalactic toejam



Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 489
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: cronicr]
#22035268 - 08/02/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: going to have to agree, just because your fc harbours way more contams then your verm would and the minute you pull the verm from the oven it's no longer sterile anymore anyway, alwyas good to err on the side of caution but iwouldnt' blame the verm i'd blame the micro climate
So you have a 3 year old bag of verm that has been sitting opened in a kitchen for a couple days. There are spores in that shit for sure. When you don't kill them off with baking, they come in direct contact with the cake and are introduced to the microclimate. The newly rolled verm gives them uncolonized space to take over.
Baking the verm isn't to sterilize it, but just to kill mold spores that might have settled in it. I used to think baking the verm is pointless for the same reasons you posted, but after having that contam, it all makes sense.
-------------------- "Psychedelics are like carnival tickets, you buy the ticket and take the ride, then you get off and go home. What your talking about is physical death. That's when you're pulled into the carnival against your will and your stuck there for eternity."
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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



Registered: 10/16/14
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: bluegill]
#22036810 - 08/03/15 09:35 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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And when you take the verm out of the oven and set it down to cool off guess what could land on it?
More mold spores. If a monotub doesn't reach the first flush and trichs out, do we blame the coir? Do we say we didn't heat treat it properly or do we say it was contaminated spawn?
I shouldn't have been so aggressive with you, that's not what I'm trying to accomplish on this site and for that I apologize. You just answer so many questions you end up snippy lol. But you should listen to Cron if you don't believe me, he has more experience in this hobby then both of us combined I'd guess.
 &
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
Edited by taGyo (08/03/15 09:50 AM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Fruiting chamber question - Spreading cake mix for flooring [Re: bluegill]
#22038057 - 08/03/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
bluegill said:
Quote:
cronicr said: going to have to agree, just because your fc harbours way more contams then your verm would and the minute you pull the verm from the oven it's no longer sterile anymore anyway, alwyas good to err on the side of caution but iwouldnt' blame the verm i'd blame the micro climate
So you have a 3 year old bag of verm that has been sitting opened in a kitchen for a couple days. There are spores in that shit for sure. When you don't kill them off with baking, they come in direct contact with the cake and are introduced to the microclimate. The newly rolled verm gives them uncolonized space to take over.
Baking the verm isn't to sterilize it, but just to kill mold spores that might have settled in it. I used to think baking the verm is pointless for the same reasons you posted, but after having that contam, it all makes sense.
i got no problem with people baking it, i always have sterilized verm kicking(i pc mine though) but the idea is only to reduce not eliminate, the rest is on you and the health of your cake
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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