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startrek
First-Time Earthling


Registered: 07/31/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins
#22026432 - 07/31/15 10:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've lurked on the amazing Shroomery forever, but this is my first post. I've learned so very, very much from you all and hope that I can start contributing new knowledge. But first, I have to ask for a little help.
I am attempting to grow Cambodian cubes with composted cow manure in a disposable aluminum baking pan. I am not a complete beginner, but I'm no expert, and this is my first grow ever in manure. I see no signs that I recognize as problems, yet after three weeks, I am getting no pins, and it worries me, so I thought I should check with the local experts and see if I'm inadvertently doing something wrong.
Here are two things I'm nearly certain are NOT wrong:
GENETICS: I started with multispore but have made numerous PF cakes from the same syringe with no problems at all. All colonized, pinned, and fruited in reasonable time frames and quantities. The spores also made a fine liquid culture which I've used to inoculate more PF cakes.
CONTAMINATION: The substrate is bright white and smells just like fresh mushrooms.
That would seem to leave the following as possible sources of the problem:
IMPATIENCE: I admit that I just may not have waited long enough. I've seen and read enough to know that “shut up and wait” is often the best advice to someone like me. So, if you read the rest of this post and want to tell me “shut up and wait,” I will respect that.
SUBSTRATE COMPOSITION: The substrate is store-bought, composted cow manure (1 part) and medium-size vermiculite (1 part), with a bit of gypsum and spent coffee grounds (not much, but I didn't measure exactly how much). I pasteurized the substrate, of course. I then shaved a fully-colonized PF cake into the substrate and mixed it up in a disposable aluminum pan. The ratio of cake to substrate was 1:3 by volume. The pan is 12 inches square, and the substrate is just over 3 inches deep.
SUBSTRATE COLONIZATION AND CONSOLIDATION: I kept the pan sealed in the dark, with the temperature going from about 70°F at night to 80°F to 85°F during the day, and the substrate was colonized all the way through in six days. When I say colonized, I mean it was uniformly white across the surface, a core sample was white all the way through, and the substrate started shrinking and pulling away (just slightly) from the walls of the pan. I know that “colonized” and “consolidated” are not the same, and I doubt that full consolidation occurred in just six days, so I'm ready for someone to tell me this was a problem. Anyway, after six days I turned the aluminum pan into a fruiting chamber.
CASING: I've read that it's not necessary to case a bulk tray of cubes, but I was worried about my ability to control humidity (more on that below), so I put a very thin (1/8 inch) vermiculite layer on top of the substrate, just to keep the localized humidity high near the surface.
FRUITING CHAMBER: I then put a plastic lid on the aluminum tray, melted holes into it with a hot metal rod to ensure FAE, and have been misting and fanning 4 or 5 times per day in the two weeks since. I'm including photos of my little tray/chamber. The size and placement of the FAE holes may be the least scientific thing about my grow: they are 3/16 inch diameter, with three holes on each side and five on top, for a total of 17 holes.
I mist enough that the vermiculite layer glistens and has the tiniest bit of standing water, which disappears within a few minutes. (It's either absorbing or evaporating, I don't know which.) I use tap water, which is high-quality in my area, sometimes with a tiny bit of hydrogen peroxide, but usually not.) There is little or no standing water around the substrate along the sides of the tray; I check it for standing water and drain off maybe a teaspoonful every day. If there is any standing water, it is pale gold colored like diluted honey, is not slimy, and smells fine. I interpret this to mean that the substrate is appropriately moist but not over-saturated.
I believe the humidity level is correct because, after I mist and fan, I spray the inside of the clear plastic lid, and when I come back a few hours later, one-fourth to one-third of that moisture has evaporated. (I have made SGFCs with too many or too large holes, and the droplets are gone within an hour of spraying, telling me that there's too much FAE and therefore not enough humidity in the chamber.)
Lighting is plain, indirect daylight (roughly 16 on/8 off). My apartment is open to the outdoors, and the temperature during these three weeks has consistently been between 70°F at night and 80°F to 85°F during the day.
I do find it a little odd that, even though my substrate was well-colonized and bright white when I added the thin vermiculite layer, the mycelium has not grown up into the vermiculite, but I don't know if this means anything. Then again, I case my PF cakes in vermiculite, and the mycelium doesn't grow up into it, yet the cakes fruit just fine, so maybe this is no problem at all.
MY OWN OPINION: I guess it's one of these things: (1) The substrate needed more time to consolidate, and I just have to be patient. (2) I am keeping the substrate and/or vermiculite layer too moist and need more evaporation to initiate pinning.
Resident experts, please tell me if you see where I may be going wrong. Please also keep in mind that I am getting no pinning at all. Cubensis is a hardy species and has always produced at least some fruits, even when I have screwed up the grow in obvious ways. To get no pins at all seems highly unusual when there are no signs of contamination. Thank you.


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Gr0wer
always improving


Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: startrek]
#22026462 - 07/31/15 10:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Dude stick to to a TEK. Id be willing to bet your humidity is way too low in there. It almost looks like you do have some solid spots of pins or aborts going there. Try making the holes slightly larger and putting polyfill in them as with the monotub tek, dense pack low loose pack high. And stop misting and fucking with it. Next time line the pan with plastic so when it shrinks it wont side pin.
You also might just want to build a shotgun terrarium and fruit in that.
My recommendations is ditch BRF for spawn and go to WBS or grain, 24 hour soak, rinse ad gypsum and 90 min PC, that easy. Also Coir makes a good sub with manure as it has amazing water retention.
You also might just want to build a shotgun terrarium and fruit in that.
Good luck!
Edited by Gr0wer (07/31/15 10:43 PM)
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startrek
First-Time Earthling


Registered: 07/31/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: startrek]
#22026486 - 07/31/15 10:51 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks, Gr0wer. I will use a proper TEK next time. I just got a little silly this time because I had some extra materials lying around.
I like your recommendations. Unfortunately there are no pins or aborts; that's just an illusion because my camera sucks. I needed someone to tell me to stop misting and fucking with it, because I'm definitely fucking with it too much.
My SGFC is currently full of PF cakes...maybe it's time to make another one!
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jesuisravi
The Old Noob



Registered: 06/24/15
Posts: 260
Loc: Midwest USA
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: Gr0wer]
#22026510 - 07/31/15 11:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Where did you get your manure? Is it straight manure or manure that has been cut with humus? Most of what is labled composted manure in my area is actually about 10% manure and 90% "compost" i.e., mostly dirt. Which is not to say it won't work as a sub.
Anyway, I wish you luck. I have done a few things like you are doing--minus the manure. I know what the waiting game feels like. I bet you will have a flush by and by.
-------------------- Most of my beliefs I acquired from my father and from John Wayne, and anything that wasn't ultra tough and ultra cool was to me ultra embarrassing. In fact, I lived in a state of near continuous embarrassment, never measuring up to the ridiculous standards I had accepted without question, applied to a framework of expectations neither I nor anyone else could meet.--J C Amberchele almost nothing important that ever happens to you happens because you engineer it. Destiny has no beeper; destiny always leans trenchcoated out of an alley with some sort of 'psst' that you usually can't even hear because you're in such a rush to or from something important you've tried to engineer. ” ― David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest
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Gr0wer
always improving


Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: jesuisravi]
#22026521 - 07/31/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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very true, many times when you inspect "composted manure" its wood chips with dirt and sand. Nothing like getting fresh field aged poo.
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startrek
First-Time Earthling


Registered: 07/31/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: startrek]
#22026544 - 07/31/15 11:10 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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jesuisravi, I got the manure at Lowe's (big national home and garden store). You're right, it's clearly not pure manure; the consistency is closer to topsoil, which I guess means it has humus and other stuff in it. A few small sticks and one or two rocks as well.
It may not be very nutritious like pure manure, but shouldn't it still work as a substrate? It colonized very quickly, so I figure the mycelium must enjoy eating it, or am I misinterpreting what I saw?
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Gr0wer
always improving


Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: startrek]
#22026670 - 08/01/15 12:06 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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You can definitely still produce something out of lowes composted manure, its been done. If you have a more pure source of horse or cow manure source that.
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maddchef
Vaginal escape artist



Registered: 09/04/09
Posts: 5,602
Loc: Your mom's vag
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: Gr0wer]
#22026673 - 08/01/15 12:08 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Black kow or similar will work but not by itself. Should be mixed with something to fluff it up.
Can't tell you about nutrition but everything I've grown using it was pretty decent
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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startrek
First-Time Earthling


Registered: 07/31/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: maddchef]
#22027328 - 08/01/15 08:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thank you very much. I will make some adjustments and then post any new developments in this thread. I really appreciate your guidance.
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startrek
First-Time Earthling


Registered: 07/31/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: startrek]
#22033030 - 08/02/15 11:27 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I took two pieces of advice that are already paying off: (1) increasing the humidity level in my make-shift fruiting chamber and (2) not fucking with it. I have two pins! Of course, a tray this size should have two hundred pins, but after not following a tek and doing other things wrong, I'm thrilled to have just two! More to come.
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startrek
First-Time Earthling


Registered: 07/31/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: startrek]
#22037803 - 08/03/15 01:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I now have dozens of pins, a few of which have become actual fruits and look like they'll be harvestable within two or three days. 
In summary, here's how I acted on the advice I got above:
(1) Quit taking the lid off, misting, fanning, and generally not letting it do its thing. (2) Covered some of the holes in the lid so that humidity was retained better. Next time I need to use 1/4" holes like everyone in the entire world says, not 3/8" holes like I did for some stupid reason. (3) To deal with side pinning (which Gr0wer said I'd get), carefully removed the alumimum pan from around the substrate and moved the hunk into my SGFC, where the sides have room to fruit all they want.
I'm feelin' purty dern happy that this goofy experiment was salvagable! 
As a side note, here's another reason I'll avoid compost in the future: it makes a good looking colonized substrate, but it doesn't have much integrity; I had to be very careful moving it into the SGFC because it was so crumbly. I have a bunch left to use up, but after that, I'm going to look for genuine leached poo from a local farm.
Edited by startrek (08/03/15 01:57 PM)
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impmeister
Stranger


Registered: 12/21/14
Posts: 16
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: startrek]
#22040213 - 08/03/15 11:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I use black kow from lowes i mix it with verm, and coir.. i made some mini mono today and threw in some worm castings for the first time.
Edited by impmeister (08/03/15 11:23 PM)
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mushmagic
supporting radical habits



Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 5,372
Loc: Candyland
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: impmeister]
#22040245 - 08/03/15 11:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Field aged manure is definitely the better route to go although I have grown pan cyans using store bought steer manure (mind you it wasnt the most impressive results).
--------------------
Trade list in journal (partially under construction; more to be added) Don't judge a man by what kinda shoes he in, judge a man on where that man's shoes been.
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startrek
First-Time Earthling


Registered: 07/31/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: mushmagic]
#22077217 - 08/11/15 04:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I only got a half-ounce dry from the first flush, which sucks for a bulk tray, and the second flush is not looking too impressive, either. Still, it's better than nothing, which is what I might have ended up with if y'all hadn't helped me, and they've already given me one fantastic trip, and a friend his very first trip, which was a good one. So thanks!
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dusticles


Registered: 02/22/16
Posts: 3
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: startrek]
#22951704 - 02/27/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hey guys going out on a limb but built my own terrarium humidity and temp controlled separately by calibrated digital controllers. .humid =ultrasonic keeps 95% temp is a 25 watt heat pad holding 72 atm..fae is on a digital timer runs 10 minutes 7 times a day @ 60 cfm in my 10 cuft terrarium...growing from a kit...first grow ever... put in a 9x 13 baking dish instead of the bag and dome ..100% colonized in about a week @ 80 degrees...straw and rye..the kit. ..cased with what the gave small points of myc poking through in 3 days....dropped temp started fae..casing staying nice and damp..nothing has changed much at all in 2 weeks...is this just mushroom growing and my patience isn't that great? Been researching the hell out of everything i can find but need some help. .myc on top of starting to look almost flat and wilted. .below casing looks great. .what do i do
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: dusticles]
#22951919 - 02/27/16 12:44 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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sounds like an outdated set up, temps are high humidity is steady and fae is lacking, get a pic.
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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dusticles


Registered: 02/22/16
Posts: 3
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: cronicr]
#22952068 - 02/27/16 01:43 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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Trying to upload pic. .what seems outdated? Thought i did my homework. ..trying to upload pic of tray. ...waiting on syringes to go pf like a newbie should bit this is where I'm at. ..lots of piss in bottom of tray. .should i not have used glass dish?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: dusticles]
#22952073 - 02/27/16 01:46 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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temps are too high, that's why you are seeing those metabolites, nobody uses elecrtronics to automate, things need to flucuate not stay steady..
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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dusticles


Registered: 02/22/16
Posts: 3
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Composted Manure, Three Weeks, No Pins [Re: cronicr]
#22952093 - 02/27/16 01:53 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ok. .i can manage that. .why are things looking flattened out like they are? Uploaded couple pics. .not sure how to post them here. .feel free to have a look. .but what you're saying is i need more inconsistency and cool things down? I was seeing growth in leaps and bounds up until i started fruiting
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