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Offlinebryanbzl
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: bryanbzl]
    #22096257 - 08/15/15 07:59 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

If you haven't realized it yet...

He has 1000 typewriter monkeys doing research at AM... :grin:


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bzl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children."

conclusion:
poor fucking children of the early 1900's.


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Offlinematsc
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
    #22096297 - 08/15/15 08:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I know it may seem a little complex, but I suggest you take a look at the Phylogenetic tree at http://cordyceps.us/node/3073?size=_original (you may have to look at thumbnail to get an overall view. That is at http://cordyceps.us/Systematics). A Phylogenetic tree is a relationship tree that shows how different species all relate to each other. True Cordyceps sinensis is almost at the very bottom, only 5 up, and it is called by its proper Latin name, Ophiocordyceps sinensis. The further away from each other on the tree, the further apart the organisms are related to each other. That means they are less and less related as they get further away from each other on the tree.  Now if you look at the very top end of the tree, you will see a species called Bionectria ochroleuca. This is just about as far away from true Cordyceps as you can get and still say that the two fungi are related. This species Bionectria ochroleuca is one of the most common products sold in China as “Cordyceps”. But as you can see, it is not Cordyceps at all, it is Bionectria. Big Difference! The species known as Paecilomyces hepialis chen or the CS-4 strain is closer to true Cordyceps, but still it is only about 1/3 of the way up the tree. (actually the species Paecilomyces hepialis chen is not shown on this chart, but a very closely related species is, Paecilomyces lilacinus) We know this is true from DNA analysis. This level of understanding from DNA analysis was not available in 1972, not even in 1992. It was only in the late 90’s that DNA sequencing became available, and even now it is something that not many companies will do with their products because of the cost. If you look at the attached DNA report though (from USA National Institute of Health, National Center for Biotechnology Information) you will see Aloha Medicinals Cordyceps is a 100% match to the real Cordyceps sequence that is deposited in the national databank. This means Aloha Medicinals is Genetically Bio-identical as well as Analytically Bio-identical to the wild collected Cordyceps sinensis.




Ok, Fungal phylogenetics is an utterly maddening field. I have seen actual fist fights break out over this shit between respected scientists (though granted this may have something to do with the open bar so many conferences have).

Basically, the tree he is linking is a snapshot of order Hypocreales. This group contains 7 families (6 of which are represented), 237 genera, and about 2647 species. It should also be noted that the tree lists species by their holomorph (teleomorph if it is known, anamorph or accepted name otherwise). Each junction of that tree can be freely rotated, so saying just because something is at the bottom of the list and the other at the top does not mean they are the least related groups. IE the family Bionectriaceae is equally related to both the Nectriaceae and the group containing the Hypocreaceae, Cordycipitaceae, Clavicipitaceae, and Ophiocordycipitaceae.

I do see a few places listing B. ochroleuca as a "Cordyceps" (for example Gourmet Mushrooms Inc's "Cordy-Gen"), but I have no clue if it is the "most common" product sold as such. They also list it as an entomopathogen which is patently false as its a facultative plant pathogen.  :shrug:

It is also tough to say if "Paecilomyces hepalis" is closely related to Paecilomyces lilacinus. Strictly speaking neither group belongs on this tree as the genus Paecilomyces is technically a member of an entirely different class of fungi (Eurotiomycetes, as opposed to the Sordariomycetes represented here). Species which superficially resembled Paecilomyces were formerly assigned to the group, but are now being re-assigned to more accurate places. Paecilomyces lilacinus is now Purpureocillium lilacinum, for example. This is one of the maddening things of fungal tree making, the sheer number of names which have been assigned to a single organism over the years, just because they happened to look and behave similarly.

And that is the key to understanding what is at play here. "Cordyceps sinensis" was the name assigned to the fungi fruiting from various species of caterpillars. These fruiting structures are now better understood to be a consortium of two fungi, Ophiocordyceps sinensis (aka  Hirsutella sinensis) which is the actual spore producing reproductive fungi, and "Paecilomyces hepiali" which plays an as-of-yet poorly understood function. Both species are present, and both play their parts. However, which species provides which health benefits (if any) is an entirely different set of questions. Strictly speaking, and officially speaking, Ophiocordyceps sinensis is the currently accepted "Caterpillar fungus", and if you want to take your chinese herbal medicine, this is the one to go for. It is also a lot slower and more expensive to cultivate. It is also what Aloha sells as "Cordyceps sinensis", so have at it!


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Offlinematsc
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: bryanbzl]
    #22096304 - 08/15/15 08:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bryanbzl said:
lol you guys are funny.

His science is spot on. He just doesn't show you it. His emails and correspondence are deceptive as hell. Its not that his science is off... its that he is not being straight with you. You can clearly see through all of the posts on the shroomery, including the cordyceps correspondence, that he is beating around the bush. Same shit if you ask him about cultivation. he will ramble about some nonsense to try to confuse you or make you loose interest. Its like he wants to sell his strains but keep them all to himself at the same time.

I appreciate everything he has brought to the body intellect. But for someone shitting mushroom money he sure could be a little more straight forward and helpful to amateur hobbyists.





...Thats even worse than him simply being wrong. If he were simply mistaken, its easy enough to remedy. If he is actively deceiving people, that is downright evil. If he doesn't want to tell you something he should just say "Sorry, trade secrets" and be done with it. But trolling his potential customers? Thats vile.


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Offlinebryanbzl
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
    #22096367 - 08/15/15 08:29 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

matsc said:
Quote:

bryanbzl said:
lol you guys are funny.

His science is spot on. He just doesn't show you it. His emails and correspondence are deceptive as hell. Its not that his science is off... its that he is not being straight with you. You can clearly see through all of the posts on the shroomery, including the cordyceps correspondence, that he is beating around the bush. Same shit if you ask him about cultivation. he will ramble about some nonsense to try to confuse you or make you loose interest. Its like he wants to sell his strains but keep them all to himself at the same time.

I appreciate everything he has brought to the body intellect. But for someone shitting mushroom money he sure could be a little more straight forward and helpful to amateur hobbyists.





...Thats even worse than him simply being wrong. If he were simply mistaken, its easy enough to remedy. If he is actively deceiving people, that is downright evil. If he doesn't want to tell you something he should just say "Sorry, trade secrets" and be done with it. But trolling his potential customers? Thats vile.




I see you have creeped out from under the rock
lol:hehehe:

Welcome to planet earth friend!:grin:

But seriously. Read the CS4 correspondence. After reading that and having any knowledge about mycology whatsoever that is the only possible conclusion one can come up with. I wish it weren't that way my friend. but the world is a fucken evil place. Look at China's "gutter oil" scandal. enough said.


--------------------
Cheers,

bzl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children."

conclusion:
poor fucking children of the early 1900's.


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
    #22096492 - 08/15/15 09:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

matsc said:
Quote:

bryanbzl said:
lol you guys are funny.

His science is spot on. He just doesn't show you it. His emails and correspondence are deceptive as hell. Its not that his science is off... its that he is not being straight with you. You can clearly see through all of the posts on the shroomery, including the cordyceps correspondence, that he is beating around the bush. Same shit if you ask him about cultivation. he will ramble about some nonsense to try to confuse you or make you loose interest. Its like he wants to sell his strains but keep them all to himself at the same time.

I appreciate everything he has brought to the body intellect. But for someone shitting mushroom money he sure could be a little more straight forward and helpful to amateur hobbyists.





...Thats even worse than him simply being wrong. If he were simply mistaken, its easy enough to remedy. If he is actively deceiving people, that is downright evil. If he doesn't want to tell you something he should just say "Sorry, trade secrets" and be done with it. But trolling his potential customers? Thats vile.




it took me about 3.41 seconds to find references to 'part spore' phenomenon that you have beef with.  check yourself, fool.

http://cordyceps.us/files/mycological_research_multiples_of_eight_in_cordyceps_ascospores.pdf

I'm pretty sure that trade paper he published was just a layman description of the confusing fungal sex without using the words ploidy or meiosis.


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Offlinematsc
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: drake89]
    #22096540 - 08/15/15 09:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, thank you I stand corrected. Its a phenomenon I had never seen before in ascospores and my cursory google search only turned up the Aloha medicinal pages. (I have seen it before in other ascomycetes as arthroconidia, but those are strictly asexual, and never used the term "partspore")

Although that paper you linked seems to specify that Ophiocordyceps (which C. sinensis is now assigned to) is typified as species which do not posses frangible ascospores. Additionally each of the partspores is clonal to the initial larger ascospore. So you may get 100s of partspores (and my god that is still a funky term) but you'd still have the the 1:1:1:1 genetic ratio per ascus.

But! I now know one more term to confuse the kids with in the mycology lab I'm TAing this semester, so thats something at least :grin:


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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
    #22096752 - 08/15/15 10:27 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

BUT ANYWAY! Back to the nutrient blend. The lack of smells is curious. Most vitamin/micronutrient blends have some odor, either the funk of yeast extract or the sharp twang of B12.


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InvisibleFoxFire
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
    #22097367 - 08/16/15 02:38 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

matsc said:
BUT ANYWAY! Back to the nutrient blend.



Thank you.


@followthefungi,
have you grown this strain out on the same type of blocks before, without the blend?
If you notice a marked increase in yield or speed, let us know!
Thanks!

-FF


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Nothing is going to get better.  It's not.


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Invisiblemustangbob3
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: FoxFire]
    #22097374 - 08/16/15 02:43 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

is this magic powder just humic acid or leonardite?
just adding humic acid too subs increases the BE quite abit with any mushroom.
bet its just that.
been known for years and years.

i bet it will just be leonardite or lignite or something simliar


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: mustangbob3]
    #22098074 - 08/16/15 09:35 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mustangbob3 said:
is this magic powder just humic acid or leonardite?
just adding humic acid too subs increases the BE quite abit with any mushroom.
bet its just that.
been known for years and years.

i bet it will just be leonardite or lignite or something simliar




whatever it is- if it increases BE by 10% it's worth it in my book.

Any of you nerds have access to GC/MS or LC/MS?


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Invisiblefollowthefungi
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: drake89]
    #22099131 - 08/16/15 03:14 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I have not grown out blocks of the fruiting substrate without the additive. After all this though I'm so interested that I'll include a block in the batches I make up weekly, and will watch the results.  (As a new member to the hobby and community, I had no idea that there was such speculation around this specific vendor).  Interesting indeed!

I did a few more bags today.  The nutrient blend has no smell until wet - it gives my substrate an almost sweet smell (substrate is just wood chips, saw dust, and bran).


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: followthefungi]
    #22099429 - 08/16/15 04:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

some people i've been talking with speculate it could be seed powder


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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: drake89] * 1
    #22099442 - 08/16/15 04:44 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Hmm, seed powder, that would be an interesting addition. Relatively easy to test too. When you wet the powder does it become sticky? Is there particulate that sinks or floats? If you have a bit of iodine around, does it turn black when dripped on the powder (this is a test for starch)?


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Offlinebryanbzl
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: mustangbob3] * 1
    #22100476 - 08/16/15 09:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mustangbob3 said:
is this magic powder just humic acid or leonardite?
just adding humic acid too subs increases the BE quite abit with any mushroom.
bet its just that.
been known for years and years.

i bet it will just be leonardite or lignite or something simliar




I am actually trying out humic acid as we speak. I have noticed an increase in yield in my veggie garden mushrooms closest to my humic acid amended bed. Made me think to test it. Literally a 50% increase in size right along the border of the bed. It could just be my compost blend which I've been tweaking for a while. Like I mentioned in the beginning of the thread I think this is mainly seed meals. As this is what has been used traditionally as an "amendment" for mushroom compost recipes just like for veggie growing too. I don't bother with none of this stuff. I inoculate all my subs with grain spawn around 15% depending on the strain which has eliminated the need to supplement to begin with - and the need to sterilize my sawdust subs to begin with.

The best way I have found to increase BE is the same way it is done with Cannabis - sea of green method. This basically translates to the industrial bottle culture method. which is at the extreme end and obviously has its limitation for smaller scale growers. By making the vessel larger and more conducive to growing in a smaller scale It works out pretty well.

I am working on a tek right now in my spare time to get the method out to as many people as I can. It is mostly beneficial for maximizing yield per square foot - something that is important to me because I believe bringing cultivation into the urban setting is one way to bring a positive change to our world. I really want to make a video because I have a really good tek for sterile work that is the easiest and simplest way possible - not to mention the cheapest. It also is way more comfortable then the traditional holes-in-a-box SAB.
Nothing new actually... but something overlooked.

Time time time... something nobody has enough of. lol:cool:


--------------------
Cheers,

bzl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children."

conclusion:
poor fucking children of the early 1900's.


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Offlinebryanbzl
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: bryanbzl]
    #22100490 - 08/16/15 09:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

someone had a chart up on shroomery about the nutritional content of different seeds. anyone know the link? I know Chia is at the top... but flax is barely below it and an 1/8th of the price.

I've fucked with it a long time ago because I have a lot around because I eat a ton of it. but it turns to goo when its wet... so I was thinking of trying to figure out away around that... time time time... once again.


--------------------
Cheers,

bzl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children."

conclusion:
poor fucking children of the early 1900's.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedrake89
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: bryanbzl]
    #22100700 - 08/16/15 10:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bryanbzl said:
someone had a chart up on shroomery about the nutritional content of different seeds. anyone know the link? I know Chia is at the top... but flax is barely below it and an 1/8th of the price.

I've fucked with it a long time ago because I have a lot around because I eat a ton of it. but it turns to goo when its wet... so I was thinking of trying to figure out away around that... time time time... once again.




you can just use smaller amounts of the flax seed oil.  but not really commercially viable for substrate as it's $$$


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Invisiblemustangbob3
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: drake89]
    #22101279 - 08/17/15 01:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

i thought about adding flax seed meal before.
just for the oils lol

cheap to get too but i never did as rye grain has plenty.
per 55g =

Omega-3 Fatty Acids                      
0.06 g

Omega-6 Fatty Acids                      
0.37 g

is there anything else in the seed meal that is useful?
never looked into it apart from oils.


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Offlinebryanbzl
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: mustangbob3]
    #22103841 - 08/17/15 06:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mustangbob3 said:
i thought about adding flax seed meal before.
just for the oils lol

cheap to get too but i never did as rye grain has plenty.
per 55g =

Omega-3 Fatty Acids                      
0.06 g

Omega-6 Fatty Acids                      
0.37 g

is there anything else in the seed meal that is useful?
never looked into it apart from oils.




Yes a lot of things. oils are a small part of it. Seeds are incredible little packages. I sprout quite a bit of seeds for food. sprouted seeds go up in nutritional value exponentially. Some nutrients go up 1000x+. They sell sprouted seed flours. They would make a crazy nutritious additive. :thumbup:

Also omega-6 and omega-3 are far from equal. flax has a ton more then rye and also has a higher omega3:omega6 ratio.


--------------------
Cheers,

bzl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children."

conclusion:
poor fucking children of the early 1900's.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemustangbob3
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: bryanbzl]
    #22105406 - 08/18/15 05:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

i thought that sprouting only converts some starches to sugars?
would the increase only be maltose and other sugars?
a process called malting.

so what seed meals are best cotton,flax ect
heard adding quinoa before but never tried it.

if it is the cytokinin ,giberellins and other phytohormones a much better source that seed meal would be coconut water(not milk or cream).
same package as a seed but more available.(coconut is know as the tree of life, and i have used homebrew plant tissue culture made with coconut water its great stuff)

like i said adding for omega oils is pointless as the grain spawn we use has more than enough contained to suit the fungi.

and if you really want to test out some phytohormones i suggest
methoxyisoflavone and ecdysterone and ilpriflavone.
they are plant sterols but if you get results from othe phytohormones then you should with these too.
aiding nutrient partitioning,metabolism ect
they work for plants and humans*debatable* so i guess fungi worth a shot.

i may try coconut water, humic acid and a flavone complex in the near future.
just for kicks lol

also glutamate and alaninine(aminos) and arginine would really help any living thing work better. but again grains take care of this.

rye per 55g=

Alanine                                      
0.23 g

Arginine                             
0.25 g
                           

Glutamic Acid                              
1.28 g

would also like to try adding fats-
as the only major fat my fungi gets is oleic monounsaturate and linoleic polyunsaturated fatty acid.
lots of room to play.
fats will be used for keeping basal metabolic temps of the myc leving other more impotant nutes for other uses.
if you give them the source they will use fat purly for maintaining temps ect. far easier than assimilating other nutrients for this job.
and allowing more nute reserves for other things


--------------------



Edited by mustangbob3 (08/18/15 05:30 AM)


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Offlinebryanbzl
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: mustangbob3]
    #22108452 - 08/18/15 08:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I use coconut water for growing seedlings. A way cheaper and very effective alternative is sprouted corn or barley. Known in the growing community as SST or sprouted seed tea. Used for other enzyme and nutrients as well. :thumbup: Not sure exactly what nutes are beneficial for fungi but some seeds have way more nutrients then others. A good reason to test them out.
Like stated above, Quinoa has been used for its nutritive values but I'd still rather use flax if I chose to test something further. Its way cheaper and way more nutritious overall. Actually I am going to give it a go once I finish current projects.


--------------------
Cheers,

bzl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children."

conclusion:
poor fucking children of the early 1900's.


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