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FoxFire
Energized Matter



Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 1,281
Loc: PNW
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Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend?
#22022914 - 07/31/15 02:18 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anyone here ever try this stuff?
From the website:
"Just a pinch of this secret recipe added to each substrate bag will magically increase biological efficiency and yield of any variety of mushrooms! Grow the biggest and most prolific mushrooms of your cultivation career with Aloha Medcinals’ Magic Mushroom powder consisting of Aloha Medincinals’ own secret blend of macro and micronutrients with just a little something extra that results in an explosion of mushrooms forming on your substrate. Once you experience the fruit bodies that form due to the addition of this special supplement you will never cultivate fungi without it again. Combine Aloha Medcinals’ Magic Mushroom powder with the Pre-Mixed Substrate to make the most of your cultivation experience. Please note spawn is not included in the Mushroom Magic powder, but all of the world’s top strains are available for purchase through Aloha Medicinals’ Culture Bank. Mushroom Magic should be used at a rate of one heaping tablespoon full to each of your grow bags holding ~6 lbs substrate."
Sounds a little gimmicky, but if it works, hell I'd buy 2!
-FF
-------------------- Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: FoxFire]
#22023159 - 07/31/15 05:58 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
FoxFire said: Anyone here ever try this stuff?
From the website:
"Just a pinch of this secret recipe added to each substrate bag will magically increase biological efficiency and yield of any variety of mushrooms! Grow the biggest and most prolific mushrooms of your cultivation career with Aloha Medcinals’ Magic Mushroom powder consisting of Aloha Medincinals’ own secret blend of macro and micronutrients with just a little something extra that results in an explosion of mushrooms forming on your substrate. Once you experience the fruit bodies that form due to the addition of this special supplement you will never cultivate fungi without it again. Combine Aloha Medcinals’ Magic Mushroom powder with the Pre-Mixed Substrate to make the most of your cultivation experience. Please note spawn is not included in the Mushroom Magic powder, but all of the world’s top strains are available for purchase through Aloha Medicinals’ Culture Bank. Mushroom Magic should be used at a rate of one heaping tablespoon full to each of your grow bags holding ~6 lbs substrate."
Sounds a little gimmicky, but if it works, hell I'd buy 2!
-FF
let us know about the magic mushroom powder, OK?
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
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Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: drake89]
#22041348 - 08/04/15 10:10 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've heard of mixes like this before, and generally they don't work. I do tend to trust Aloha though, so IDK. Give it a shot and let us know.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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bryanbzl
Spawn Runner



Registered: 03/11/07
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: 36fuckin5]
#22046150 - 08/05/15 08:28 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Aloha is a reputable business. On the other hand I believe that they make enough money to be a little more transparent with their products. It's a shame really. Either way I would purchase it if its something you think you will benefit from. Personally, I would do a little research on the topic and come up with my own formula. It is probably a blend of organic nutrients like seed meals/etc.
Let us know if you pick it up and try it out! Should make for an interesting side by side show...
-------------------- Cheers, bzl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children." conclusion: poor fucking children of the early 1900's.
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FoxFire
Energized Matter



Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 1,281
Loc: PNW
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: bryanbzl]
#22053225 - 08/06/15 11:56 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's what I was thinking.
Also I bet they would be down to send me a pound or so to experiment with if I mentioned I was a shroomery member.
I'll send them a message and see what happens.
-FF
-------------------- Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Edited by FoxFire (08/06/15 12:12 PM)
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FoxFire
Energized Matter



Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 1,281
Loc: PNW
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: FoxFire] 1
#22058733 - 08/07/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok, so they are going to send me a sample!
I'll do some side by side comparisons with supplemented sawdust bags and take pictures, weights etc.
-FF
-------------------- Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.
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god2hateyou
Stranger

Registered: 08/07/15
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: FoxFire]
#22058861 - 08/07/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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i cant wait to see this in action
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Ncogneato
Patriot



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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: god2hateyou]
#22059885 - 08/07/15 06:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very cool! I will keep an eye on this thread for sure!
-------------------- Psilocybin.........the poor man's Cancun.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: Ncogneato]
#22061081 - 08/07/15 11:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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You should smell it for that salty smell you get from gypsum
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matsc
Stranger



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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: Mad Season]
#22064733 - 08/08/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Its also possible its something like yeast nutrient or spent brewers yeast, maybe with a bit of slow pH stabilizers.
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followthefungi

Registered: 08/08/15
Posts: 8
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
#22095444 - 08/15/15 04:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I actually have some of this!
I have not done side-by-side comparisons, but have knocked up 15 bags of King Oysters with it mixed into the fruiting substrate (about 2 weeks in). I should know more soon. 
Even after buying the stuff, the only additional information I could gleam from it was that its organic.
For the curious I took some pictures:



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matsc
Stranger



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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: followthefungi]
#22095492 - 08/15/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok, that looks like straight oyster flour. Does it have any discernible odor?
Aloha is an interesting company, but if its posts here on the Shroomery are any indication, its grasp of the mycological sciences is shaky at best, and it wouldnt surprise me AT ALL if they were touting ground oyster shells as a miracle product.
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followthefungi

Registered: 08/08/15
Posts: 8
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
#22095848 - 08/15/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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No smell at all. Yes, it looks just like it. There may be other stuff in it, but I'm not able to tell.
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 4,168
Loc: TN
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
#22095881 - 08/15/15 06:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
matsc said: Ok, that looks like straight oyster flour. Does it have any discernible odor?
Aloha is an interesting company, but if its posts here on the Shroomery are any indication, its grasp of the mycological sciences is shaky at best, and it wouldnt surprise me AT ALL if they were touting ground oyster shells as a miracle product.
haha they aren't shady. John Holiday, the company owner, also owns several mushroom farms and has published some scientific literature. Not to mention one of the largest mushroom culture banks. so yeah, to say that their grasp of science is shaky, is pretty insulting. especially since they are the largest certified organic spawn producer in the country.
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followthefungi

Registered: 08/08/15
Posts: 8
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: drake89]
#22095948 - 08/15/15 06:27 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Since it has a lot number on it and a QC sticker; it seems to imply a manufacturing process. It would seem reasonable that shell flour is just one of the ingredients in the mix. I was hoping the product itself would provide more detail (then the website), but that wasn't really the case this time.
I've also bought quite a few bags of spawn, and cultures from them in the past and have always been happy with the product. Though shipping costs and time are painful.
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matsc
Stranger



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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: drake89]
#22096022 - 08/15/15 06:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said: haha they aren't shady. John Holiday, the company owner, also owns several mushroom farms and has published some scientific literature. Not to mention one of the largest mushroom culture banks. so yeah, to say that their grasp of science is shaky, is pretty insulting. especially since they are the largest certified organic spawn producer in the country.
I base that statement upon the few posts of his I've come across on this forum. His attempts at explaining fungal genetics were baffling, at best.
This is a quote from Mr. Holiday posted during the Cordyceps co-op buy thread:
Quote:
That initial CS4 isolation was more than 40 years ago. That is a long time in terms of scientific advancements. Think of where the computer was 40 years ago. Or the advances in any technical or scientific field in the last 40 years. So much advancement has taken place during that time that the “Best” of that era is no longer even on the radar. In 1972, there was no DNA testing to see if the CS-4 culture they derived was even Cordyceps. In fact, it turns out that it was not. The culture that is called CS4 is a different species entirely, Latin named Paecilomyces hepialis chen. This is a species related to Cordyceps, in that it has some of the DNA from the original Cordyceps, but not the entire genetic package. This happens because of a unique feature of Cordyceps called Part-Spores reproduction.
“Anamorph” is the name of the non-sexual, non-reproductive mycelial growth of Cordyceps or any of the other Ascomycetes fungi. It is an asexual stage of growth, and is what is normal cultivated in laboratories today. An anamorph can be thought of as the child of the parent fungus. Confusing the issue of Cordyceps anamorphs is the indication that Cordyceps is almost certainly a colony organism. In the type of fungi known as ascomycetes, such as Cordyceps, there are 4 spores produced in each spore sac. Each spore contains 50% of the total DNA. When these spores germinate, they are not identical to the parent fungus, but only 50% identical. Then when two different spore germinations meet, they fuse and exchange DNA, and only then will the resulting culture contain 100% of the DNA, or in other words it is a complete and identical fungal organism the same as the parent species only after two spore growths meet and fuse. This is much like human reproduction where each parent contributes 50% of the DNA.
But Cordyceps does something very unique. Prior to germination of the spores (remember contain 50% of the DNA), the spores will separate into as many as 100 “part-spores”. These part-spores each contain something less than 50% of the total DNA. Each of these spores can and do germinate though, and the resulting cultures are related to Cordyceps in that they contain some of the DNA of the Cordyceps, but not all of it. But the germinations are species that we recognize and that are already known, for example Fusarium oxysporum. (a very commonly derivative anamorph species from single part-spore isolates) Apparently in nature instead of just two whole spores fusing like in other fungi, in Cordyceps many of these part-spore organisms fuse, so that eventually the entire Cordyceps sinensis DNA sequence is assembled. Only then can the culture be called Cordyceps sinensis and only then does it fruit. We do not know exactly how many partner species contribute to the Cordyceps sinensis organism, but there are at least 21 genera that can be isolated from Cordyceps spores. These are:
Paecilomyces, Acremonium, Akanthomyces, Aschersonia, Aspergillus, Beauveria, Culicinomyces, Fusarium, Gibellula, Hirsutella, Hymenostilbe, Metarhizium, Nomuraea, Paraisaria, Pseudogibellula, Sorosporella, Sporothrix, Tetracrium, Tilachlidiopsis, Tolypocladium, Verticillium
There are others genera known as anamorphs as well, but these 21 genera are listed in the peer-review literature as “anamorphs” of Cordyceps. Some authors will claim that Hirsutella sinensis is the “true” anamorph of Cordyceps sinensis. That is incorrect data from an early attempt to genotype the anamorph. In truth, there is no one single anamorph of Cordyceps, but many that must be present for the fungus to be complete.
I know it may seem a little complex, but I suggest you take a look at the Phylogenetic tree at http://cordyceps.us/node/3073?size=_original (you may have to look at thumbnail to get an overall view. That is at http://cordyceps.us/Systematics). A Phylogenetic tree is a relationship tree that shows how different species all relate to each other. True Cordyceps sinensis is almost at the very bottom, only 5 up, and it is called by its proper Latin name, Ophiocordyceps sinensis. The further away from each other on the tree, the further apart the organisms are related to each other. That means they are less and less related as they get further away from each other on the tree. Now if you look at the very top end of the tree, you will see a species called Bionectria ochroleuca. This is just about as far away from true Cordyceps as you can get and still say that the two fungi are related. This species Bionectria ochroleuca is one of the most common products sold in China as “Cordyceps”. But as you can see, it is not Cordyceps at all, it is Bionectria. Big Difference! The species known as Paecilomyces hepialis chen or the CS-4 strain is closer to true Cordyceps, but still it is only about 1/3 of the way up the tree. (actually the species Paecilomyces hepialis chen is not shown on this chart, but a very closely related species is, Paecilomyces lilacinus) We know this is true from DNA analysis. This level of understanding from DNA analysis was not available in 1972, not even in 1992. It was only in the late 90’s that DNA sequencing became available, and even now it is something that not many companies will do with their products because of the cost. If you look at the attached DNA report though (from USA National Institute of Health, National Center for Biotechnology Information) you will see Aloha Medicinals Cordyceps is a 100% match to the real Cordyceps sequence that is deposited in the national databank. This means Aloha Medicinals is Genetically Bio-identical as well as Analytically Bio-identical to the wild collected Cordyceps sinensis.
We can produce any type of Cordyceps product our customers may specify. All Cordyceps Aloha Medicinals produces are 100% USDA Certified Organic and manufactured under cGMP regulations in an FDA registered plant. All raw material is Made in America, with no Chinese material used. We would be glad to quote you on any type of Cordyceps derived product you may require. This can be raw material, or finished bulk tablets or capsules or finished tablets or capsules in a bottle or blister package. We also can supply energy bars, drink mixes, soup base, etc. Please just let me know what you are thinking of and what quantities, and I would be glad to provide a quotation for you.
You can find information on all our Cordyceps based products at http://alohamedicinals.com
I have attached a couple of other files to this email for your perusal. We look forward to becoming your supplier for Cordyceps based products.
Sincerely, John Holliday Director of Research Aloha Medicinals Inc Tel +1 775.886.6300
Which is also found on their webpage at: http://www.alohamedicinals.com/cordyceps.html
There is SO MUCH wrong in there that its hard to know where to begin. The man is likely a brilliant curator and cultivation genius, but its spreading information such as this that makes me shake my head in wonder. I will attempt to break it down into digestible bits, but for the moment suffice to say its things like this that make me question his scientific merit (NOT his merit as an applied mycologist, just his knowledge of what is actually going on at a scientific level)
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matsc
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
#22096080 - 08/15/15 07:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
“Anamorph” is the name of the non-sexual, non-reproductive mycelial growth of Cordyceps or any of the other Ascomycetes fungi. It is an asexual stage of growth, and is what is normal cultivated in laboratories today. An anamorph can be thought of as the child of the parent fungus.
Incorrect. Anamorphs are quite frequently reproductive, just in an asexual manner. If youve ever seen the spore mass of Aspergillus or Penicillium, you've seen anamorphic reproduction. Many fungi spend the majority of their time in their teleomorph phase and reproduce exclusively sexually. And most fungi will go back and forth between anamorph and teleomorph depending on conditions/timing/age/etc, so the parent-child relationship falls apart.
Quote:
The culture that is called CS4 is a different species entirely, Latin named Paecilomyces hepialis chen. This is a species related to Cordyceps, in that it has some of the DNA from the original Cordyceps, but not the entire genetic package. This happens because of a unique feature of Cordyceps called Part-Spores reproduction.
Ok, first off, "Part-spores reproduction" is a term that would get you laughed out of any mycology class, and exists solely in the Aloha dictionary. Yes, the culture known as CS-4 has since been identified as Paecilomyces hepialis-chen, but not because of some mixed DNA nonsense. This species, and the true anamorph of Ophiocordyceps sinensis (currently accepted to be Hirsutella sinensis) are very closely related. The DNA sequence used to differentiate species (in this case the ITS region) is identical between the two. This isnt really uncommon amongst closely related species and when it occurs you simply use some other loci to differentiate. So yes, some of their DNA is identical, but not because of this baffling "part spores" nonsense, just as a consequence of relatedness.
First post of several, more to come.
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matsc
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
#22096118 - 08/15/15 07:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
In the type of fungi known as ascomycetes, such as Cordyceps, there are 4 spores produced in each spore sac. Each spore contains 50% of the total DNA. When these spores germinate, they are not identical to the parent fungus, but only 50% identical. Then when two different spore germinations meet, they fuse and exchange DNA, and only then will the resulting culture contain 100% of the DNA, or in other words it is a complete and identical fungal organism the same as the parent species only after two spore growths meet and fuse. This is much like human reproduction where each parent contributes 50% of the DNA.
Woo boy, where to start. First of all, in anamorph reproduction, spores are clones of the parent mass. They are genetically identical (barring mutation and whatnot). What he is describing here is the result of sexual reproduction, which occurs in the teleomorph phase. Also, ascospores occur most often in groups of 8 (4 pairs of 2 haploid spores). Each spore pair will have undergone sexual recombination, and hence have DNA different than their parent. This DNA may be from a single organism (in self-fertile fungi) or as a result of the mixing of 2 organisms (in the case of self-sterile fungi).
In either case, the ascospores germinate into haploid (1n) hyphae. In ascomycetes, they spend the majority of their life, and the majority of the mass, in this haploid state. It is only when sexual reproduction begins that cell fusion (plasmogamy) and nuclear fusion (karyogamy) occurs. In ascomycetes, the two steps are seperated temporally so you end up with an extended dikayote stage with hypha containing two seperate haploid nuclei (though only in a limited number of cells).
What he is describing much more closely resembles what happens in Basidiomycetes. In this case, haploid spores germinate and live a very limited life until they fuse with a compatible partner to form a stable dikaryon. This (n+n) hyphae makes up the vast majority of the hyphal mass, and virtually its entire lifecycle. The exception being during reproduction when the two nuclei fuse and go on to form basidia from which 4 haploid spores (most often) form.
It also somewhat resembles what occurs in oomycete reproduction in which two haploid spores fuse to form a long lived diploid phase that makes up the majority of the organisms lifecycle. But again, nothing to do with Cordyceps.
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Edited by matsc (08/15/15 07:14 PM)
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matsc
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
#22096161 - 08/15/15 07:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
But Cordyceps does something very unique. Prior to germination of the spores (remember contain 50% of the DNA), the spores will separate into as many as 100 “part-spores”. These part-spores each contain something less than 50% of the total DNA. Each of these spores can and do germinate though, and the resulting cultures are related to Cordyceps in that they contain some of the DNA of the Cordyceps, but not all of it. But the germinations are species that we recognize and that are already known, for example Fusarium oxysporum. (a very commonly derivative anamorph species from single part-spore isolates) Apparently in nature instead of just two whole spores fusing like in other fungi, in Cordyceps many of these part-spore organisms fuse, so that eventually the entire Cordyceps sinensis DNA sequence is assembled. Only then can the culture be called Cordyceps sinensis and only then does it fruit. We do not know exactly how many partner species contribute to the Cordyceps sinensis organism, but there are at least 21 genera that can be isolated from Cordyceps spores.
This.... this is why I no longer trust the mans scientific credentials. This reads like the attempts of a man trying to explain a phenomenon with absolutely no clue as to what is going on. An organism will not magically change species and become something else. That is not how reality works. Cordyceps sinensis cannot become Fusarium oxysporum.
In nature, Cordyceps (and its related genera such as Paracordyceps and Ophiocordyceps) do most often occur as mixed cultures. Some poor bug ends up infected by multiple species of fungi which are all happily digesting it at once (not entirely surprising due to the various immune-evading processes these parasites employ). Its not because 1 species has magically turned into 2 dozen. Bits and pieces of DNA do not assemble Voltron style into a single mega-organism.
There are such a thing as consortia and multi-part organisms, do not misunderstand me. Lichens, for example, as a "single organism" made up of multiple interacting organisms (a fungi and an algae and/or a cyanobacteria). But it is not a case of intermingling DNA self assembling into some new organism, it is just many players working together.
And I honestly have no clue whatsoever what he is going on about with the spores-splitting-into-part-spores thing. That doesnt occur in nature. There are some species which have multi-celled spores which can germinate from each cell independently, but nothing like this. Gah!
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bryanbzl
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Re: Alohas 'yeild increasing' nutrient blend? [Re: matsc]
#22096249 - 08/15/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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lol you guys are funny.
His science is spot on. He just doesn't show you it. His emails and correspondence are deceptive as hell. Its not that his science is off... its that he is not being straight with you. You can clearly see through all of the posts on the shroomery, including the cordyceps correspondence, that he is beating around the bush. Same shit if you ask him about cultivation. he will ramble about some nonsense to try to confuse you or make you loose interest. Its like he wants to sell his strains but keep them all to himself at the same time.
I appreciate everything he has brought to the body intellect. But for someone shitting mushroom money he sure could be a little more straight forward and helpful to amateur hobbyists.
-------------------- Cheers, bzl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children." conclusion: poor fucking children of the early 1900's.
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