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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Eastern "Wisdom"
    #22013985 - 07/29/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

“You are very powerful, provided you know how powerful you are.” ~Yogi Bhajan

Wow! That changed my life. A good tautology is good! :cookiemonster:


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (07/29/15 09:37 AM)


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22014173 - 07/29/15 10:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, once you cross eastern europe everything pretty much goes down hill from there. :nyan:


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Kurt]
    #22014577 - 07/29/15 11:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Okay...

If some guy at my local American university here in the US said consciousness corresponded to an isolated proposition, and that proposition would be that "consciousness" is found in an experience of a specific color red, what would this mean?

I would assume the meaning of that statement would be implied; that it mainly indicates you don't necessarily experience the universe the way I do, specifically in the experience of the color red. The meaning of the statement, as implied would be that consciousness as a whole is potentially composed somehow of such a specific quality, somehow based on that.

Would this proposition of the reality of consciousness, based on the philosopher of mind's qualia be useful in isolation? Do I look for the color red? If someone from a different part of the world said that these guys over in this part of the world say conscious experience is of the color red, (or the smell of burnt almonds or whatever) without taking into consideration some other qualifying propositions or context, what kind of silly mysted-over eyes would they think we have?

It seems like if thoughtfulness is found in such statements, they are found both in a peculiarity and in a context of appropriate qualifying statements, some kind of practical whole context.

Maybe this doesn't have to be based on a background of specifically theoretical propositions at all, or what might seem to necessarily be a certain kind of mental preoccupation. Even we can see how isolated and contained the relavence of our idea of the color red is, compared to what it is supposed to convey in conscious experience. It seems to  be a particularly distinct "focus" that happens to come down in our culture to a proposition. If you are looking for an ideally intelligible proposition and conjecture on the existence of consciousness, you can look to qualia. But turn it around, and what does this idea of the experience of the color red stand for in practice, as an actual focus of consciousness? Is it anything, or is it just such an idea that is theoretically arrived at?

Well anyway, another one for the books Orgone...


Edited by Kurt (07/29/15 02:49 PM)


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Kurt] * 1
    #22014630 - 07/29/15 11:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I agree that lots of eastern 'wisdom' is rubbish, but I don't know if I'd agree that this quote specifically is a tautology.

It is of course, possible to know how powerful you are, yet still not be very powerful, it is possible to know exactly how powerless you are, meaning that the statement is not circular.
I think Yogi Bhajan is trying to claim that as you recognize what power you have, you become more powerful. A recognition of some powers is necessary in order to use said powers. He might be referring to the power of focus, or certain abilities to do with consciousness, who knows.
There may also be some deeper principles at work with this quote, but I don't really know for sure, and I don't even know if this particular quote is even wise, or just a silly deepity. I just merely wanted to point out that it isn't a tautology, and that just because we might not be able to extract the wisdom, doesn't mean that the wisdom isn't there to begin with.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: secondorder]
    #22015413 - 07/29/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Even if not a tautology, it might mean this, it might mean that :blah:

So it is a blank sheet upon which you write your own meaning? That is not wisdom.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (07/29/15 03:27 PM)


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22015560 - 07/29/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Vague blanket statements open to interpretation are always packed full of wisdom OC! :tongue:


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #22015591 - 07/29/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Like a Snickers bar! :skittles:


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22015641 - 07/29/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

"You're not you when your hungry" ~ Qin Sung

Take some mushrooms and let that sink in:mindblown:


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #22015671 - 07/29/15 03:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22015947 - 07/29/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Even if not a tautology, it might mean this, it might mean that :blah:

So it is a blank sheet upon which you write your own meaning? That is not wisdom.




Of course contingency of possible meaning is compared to tautology in general. You'd have to consider the idea in context to actually consider what it means.

Suppose we just observed the way these ideas are framed by insecurities, and reactive impressions and caricatures of gimme-five "bro" culture, by comparison so far.

Can a single statement of some guy pulled out of the air by resentment, and out of context, very well represent another person's thought, or let alone or "eastern" thought in general? Isn't there a pretty good reason to be skeptical of that kind of platitude to begin with?

Contingency: start where you are at, and say what you are going to say in this world. Upon that, there are great eastern and western thinkers who have expressed the same thing in quietism: Don't just react to impressions and derivatives. Once you get that down you can possibly see things in more than one dimension.


Edited by Kurt (07/29/15 06:49 PM)


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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22016431 - 07/29/15 06:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Even if not a tautology, it might mean this, it might mean that :blah:

So it is a blank sheet upon which you write your own meaning? That is not wisdom.




Maybe wisdom like this is supposed to be the idea that a person needs to weigh things and decide for themselves what they are or should do etc.  As opposed to having someone else give them advice to sway them one way or the other.  After all, even the wisest people are not always right.  And often they could make no better decision than someone else on a certain matter.


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22017014 - 07/29/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
A good tautology is good! :cookiemonster:




What if I don't know how good it is?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #22017289 - 07/29/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
“You are very powerful, provided you know how powerful you are.” ~Yogi Bhajan

Wow! That changed my life. A good tautology is good! :cookiemonster:




Tautology?  Maybe. I first saw a contradiction.  What if I am powerful and I don't know?  Then I cannot be powerful.

So to be powerful necessarily means you must know you are powerful.  In fact, the power is completely impotent without the knowledge.  Sounds like some more wisdom from one of my heroes;  "The most valuable commodity I know of is information." -Gordon Gekko


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: DieCommie]
    #22017848 - 07/29/15 11:22 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Don't you think that "necessity" in there is a little self contrived? 
He could have meant that knowledge is a sufficient condition for power.

But :lol: that would be presuming any of this makes any sense.

Well this much is clear to me commie. If you were to step out in nature, information would be like a guide book you consult. If you have ever been there, you know it's handy at best. Is "information" your resourcefulness when a cougar growls at you?


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Kurt]
    #22018357 - 07/30/15 04:52 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Perhaps it would be a more accurate statement if we replaced 'information' with 'understanding' or 'logical clarity'. What do you think?


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: secondorder]
    #22018567 - 07/30/15 06:59 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Have you ever heard a cougar growl second order? It is like something deep coming up, through and out.

Quote:

The spotted hawk swoops by and accuses me—he complains of my gab and my loitering.
 
I too am not a bit tamed—I too am untranslatable;
I sound my barbaric yawp over the roofs of the world.
W.W.





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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Kurt]
    #22018636 - 07/30/15 07:38 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Have you ever heard a cougar growl second order? It is like something deep coming up, through and out.




I dunno about you, but I don't mind older chicks.

HA, but in all seriousness, understanding what a cougar's motives are (food usually) can help you get away unharmed. Evolutionarily speaking, if a cougar has to expend a lot of energy for just one piece of food, with the added risk of being hurt due to overt aggressiveness on the part of the 'prey', it is not a wise decision to continue to pursue said prey. Appear large, make loud noises, throw things, and you will likely scare it away.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: secondorder]
    #22018656 - 07/30/15 07:48 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Paha
"Loud noises!"
- Stephen Carrell


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Kurt]
    #22018681 - 07/30/15 07:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

(White guy in a suit.)

Btw I wasn't intending to be oblique. Straight forward, I just think some things are instinctual and When he says there is not really a "translation" of that. What you have in you.

I don't know about the kinds of cougars you're talking about. :lol: My girlfriend is a Leo though,  so she scares em away for me. :tongue:



Edited by Kurt (07/30/15 03:04 PM)


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Kurt]
    #22019779 - 07/30/15 01:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

That's reads like a proverb..I am pretty sure there are reiterations of the same concept throughout many cultures.


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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #22024667 - 07/31/15 02:46 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

what's vague about it? you powerful piece of shit.


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:jesus:?


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Marihuana]
    #22032613 - 08/02/15 09:47 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

How do you know i'm powerful?


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #22033181 - 08/02/15 12:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

"In the East man is God and redeems himself." -Jung

All you need to know about the East.


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My solitude...
My shield...
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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: circastes]
    #22033223 - 08/02/15 12:14 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

What about mu shu pork?


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (08/02/15 02:33 PM)


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #22034399 - 08/02/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
How do you know i'm powerful?




Maybe take into consideration consciousness. Clearly you comprehend symbolism and language, and that is something, even if it is relative to a still paltry ape existence, or what you make of it.

In what Yogi Bhajan said, it's not certain that you are powerful, either in general, or based on what he said particularly in the statement. It is not a tautology or a contradiction.

The statement should be found in context, probably, to be reasonable. The value of yoga practice is not in itself a "proposition", but it could probably likewise be said that something ostensibly about meditation, is not necessarily going to make much sense if you've never consciously practiced or hold any interest in meditation ("eastern philosophy")

I don't think it necessarily has to be about meditation. Like HTX said, it seems to be a proverb that could be taken different ways, maybe to different cultures.

On the other hand, the idea of epistemelogically significant statements being found in isolation, out of the blue, or hanging in the air, on the other hand is apparently an assumed way of taking things. That could presumably be critiqued in context.

But by whatever means this discussion seems to put things vaguely of "the east" on a pedestal, only to realize it can't be found there, and it turns into how that leveling happens, apparently in vague impressionism and projected caricatures. Ressentiment is the great leveler, and truth of apes.

What can really be said about east/west parallels?

The western concept of "enlightenment" (historically in either ancient Greece or modernity) presents itself not only in terms of a stimulus to epistemology ("truth"), but in what comes hand in hand with that in each case. Our enlightenments in the west have always been collectively shared, and political or democratic.

Never has this interconnection of representation been disentangled in the west. It is said that truth must be something anyone can see or experience, or it must be something thrown up on a common screen or table to represent for all, every step of the way. Why?

This representation may be called truth, that occupation with representation may as much be egalitarianism speaking. Nietzsche saw this.

Maybe it is fitting this discussion to to ask above all; are there specific reasons truth must be leveled to common denomination in the west, aside from that being (quite ostensibly) "the truth"? I'd say there are.

That'd be interesting to consider anyway.

Westerners had best become pragmatists today.


Edited by Kurt (08/02/15 10:01 PM)


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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Kurt]
    #22035311 - 08/02/15 09:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

"A mans got to know his limitations."
~Harry Callahan


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InvisibleSun King
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22036738 - 08/03/15 09:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Southern Wisdom is better.



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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22036801 - 08/03/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I prefer South Park wisdom. It's more practical.

“Remamber children, there are no stupid questions. Just stupid people.” ~Mr. Garrison


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineAjahn Don
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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Diploid]
    #22038462 - 08/03/15 05:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Whenever I hear someone give such great advice on what it takes to "improve" oneself, I always wonder, "How?" Through what process does one realize one's power? And through what process does the recognition lead to actual power? You know, WTF is this asshole talking about?

If there is no process, there can be no long-term improvement. So far, east meets west in failure, except...  one. The middle way.

I sit there, on my bench and cushion, every day, and good things happen. I realize I'm powerful over myself, because I acknowledge no self. This allows me to realize power comes from inter-connectedness, that I have no power at all, and that I can be absolutely fine with it.

So ask him or her How?

:smile:


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"He's not altogether dense, but he's not altogether there."


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Re: Eastern "Wisdom" [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #22048004 - 08/05/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Do you know what powerful means? Or the idea of you being powerful.. if you do you are that powerful... right now atleast


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:jesus:?


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