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OfflineLSoares
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Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 3,209
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On ID requests * 1
    #22013237 - 07/29/15 03:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I know everybody, me included, likes to show off a bit and be the first to guess correctly the ID of an unknown plant. But may I suggest that we all refrain from doing so when it comes to suspicious situations? Pictures of fenced cacti, in public gardens, pathways, whatever, should warrant a good explanation before being worthy of our efforts. It probably won't keep anyone from poaching, but at least we won't be encouraging it.
I, for one, won't do it anymore until satisfied that it's a legitimate request.

(not that it makes much of a difference, anyway, for I suck at ID'ing Trichocerei :laugh: )


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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OfflineArgyreia
Grafting cacti is awesome
Male


Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1,100
Loc: France Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
Re: On ID requests [Re: LSoares]
    #22013352 - 07/29/15 05:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So what ? We say no, it's not san pedro, it's poisonous ? :grin:

Don't really know if it encourages poaching but I'll follow you. If it is suspicious I'll write nothing.


Edited by Argyreia (07/29/15 05:23 AM)


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Offlinekosmokratorshaman
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Re: On ID requests [Re: Argyreia]
    #22013414 - 07/29/15 05:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds good. We all get carried away trying to help each other that sometimes we miss that the OP is unscrupulous.


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I am.


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Offlinekizatzhaddarak
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Re: On ID requests [Re: kosmokratorshaman] * 1
    #22013772 - 07/29/15 08:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

information is information.

What people do with said information, is their own deal. If someone decided to take an illegal action. (IE: poach cacti from private property, that is trespassing and theft).. The information that we give people is simply information. The actions that criminals take is their own. I believe in Karma.. If you steal someone's shit.  some bad shit is gonna come back to you. I just see no reason why we should censor the ability to provide information. What people do with the information, is their own deal.

I come at this concept, from the standpoint of a Shaman. I have the knowledge of plants and herbs.. . of mystical concepts, and I am a medium to spirits. If I were to say, (I no longer will provide information about the paranormal world, because mortals can affect the Spirit world.), It would be foolish for me to do so. .. and could cause more harm than good. We have to allow people to follow their own paths in life.. even if they decide to do wrong. We cant stop people from doing bad things. They will continue to do them, whether we want them to, or not.

After all, that is what a No-tresspassing sign, and a telephone call to the police for; or a concealed weapons permit, are for.

People may not agree with me, but. Oh well. .We can't be responsible for the "criminal activities" that other people take. Those actions were Their choice to make. Imagines someone trying to hop over a fence, to looking down a barrel of a gun.


--------------------
The Sleeper Must Awaken!  (I do not advocate the ingestion of any substance without extensive research, and or the advice of trained medical and or spiritual personelle)




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Offlinekosmokratorshaman
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Re: On ID requests [Re: kizatzhaddarak]
    #22014222 - 07/29/15 10:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I just wont ID plants.


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I am.


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OfflineLemnaminor
Lophophora - eyed
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Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 1,366
Loc: Sicily
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Re: On ID requests [Re: kosmokratorshaman]
    #22014879 - 07/29/15 12:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

well, i can see it on 2 sides.
Providing infos is not a bad thing, and the possibility of theft should not restrain our info giving, since we don't know for sure

Of course sometimes, we just happen to see something really suspicious, that screams stolen cactus/ will to poach cactus. and even here, we still have no way to tell.

the fact is that if we chose to give infos we will sure help some poacher, instead if we chose to not give infos, we will deny IDs to someone that has no malicious intent.

I guess that from now on I will simply restrain from giving IDs for suspicious requests.
Some may decide to continue to correctly identify, some others may want to give wrong IDs on purpose (Telling that something is a Cereus, and not a pedro, may dissuade poachers to steal.)


--------------------



                                                        "The best things in life, come covered in spines."


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Offlineinvitro

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
Re: On ID requests [Re: kizatzhaddarak]
    #22015511 - 07/29/15 03:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kizatzhaddarak said:
information is information.

What people do with said information, is their own deal. If someone decided to take an illegal action. (IE: poach cacti from private property, that is trespassing and theft).. The information that we give people is simply information. The actions that criminals take is their own. I believe in Karma.. If you steal someone's shit.  some bad shit is gonna come back to you.




So just for the sake of argument:

Let's say someone sees their neighbors cacti and can't identify it, then they post a pic and you ID it as active but their intentions look sketchy, then they go and steal it based on that information.  Karma would dictate that someone might want to steal some cacti of yours, have someone else ID it (even though they looked suspicious), then actually be able to steal it based on that information. 

So if you really believe in Karma... it seems like you would NOT id a suspicious request.

In a broader context, just because you didn't perform a crime doesn't mean your not culpable.  Ever heard of accessory to a crime?

---
On the other hand, I traded for some cacti a while ago and got help from you guys about IDing it, which was appreciated.


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Invisiblemodern.shaman
San Mescalito
I'm a teapot


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,224
Loc: Zone 13
Re: On ID requests [Re: invitro]
    #22015811 - 07/29/15 04:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I rarely post in ID requests unless I see it is a store bought cactus labeled generic cactus.


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Invisiblespaceman101
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Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 11,726
Loc: In heaven bored as hell
Re: On ID requests [Re: LSoares]
    #22015924 - 07/29/15 04:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LSoares said:
I know everybody, me included, likes to show off a bit and be the first to guess correctly the ID of an unknown plant. But may I suggest that we all refrain from doing so when it comes to suspicious situations? Pictures of fenced cacti, in public gardens, pathways, whatever, should warrant a good explanation before being worthy of our efforts. It probably won't keep anyone from poaching, but at least we won't be encouraging it.
I, for one, won't do it anymore until satisfied that it's a legitimate request.

(not that it makes much of a difference, anyway, for I suck at ID'ing Trichocerei :laugh: )






I agree with you LSoares. What should be done is when an ID is needed we should add to the rules or just make it known that for proper ID of plants growing naturally they need to post pics and give info on where the plant was found such as state and type of location "it's kind of hard to express what's in my head". I'm sure we've help MANY poachers who have just lied and told us they have permission or that said cactus was found on their uncles farm land "I saw a post awhile back where the guy said that and I didn't believe it:rolleyes:"

This should be asked before any ID is posted.

Also if they somewhat admit to poaching then I wouldn't really reprimand them much I would just calmly say Cereus sp. to throw them off enough to keep them from doing wrong.


Karma will always get you. If you shit on others Karma will shit on you at the worst time :shitstorm:


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Offlinekosmokratorshaman
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Posts: 1,206
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Re: On ID requests [Re: spaceman101]
    #22016068 - 07/29/15 05:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

make it against the rules to request an ID until you have 200 posts? lmao


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I am.


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OfflineConvergence
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Registered: 07/03/15
Posts: 160
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: On ID requests [Re: kosmokratorshaman] * 1
    #22017886 - 07/29/15 11:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Fact is this isnt the only ID request forum. If they really want an ID they will get it. Any rules about post count before ID request would merely move the problem elsewhere and limit your positive influence. A better approach would be education and support for doing the right thing, offering suggestions as to how to approach someone and ask for a cutting, etc...


--------------------
“Reality is what we take to be true. What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based upon our perceptions. What we perceive depends upon what we look for. What we look for depends upon what we think. What we think depends upon what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality.”


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OfflineLSoares
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Re: On ID requests [Re: Convergence]
    #22018144 - 07/30/15 01:56 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think we should put any restrictions as to who asks what. It's the answers I'm worried with.

Quote:

I no longer will provide information about the paranormal world, because mortals can affect the Spirit world.



Same thing, isn't it? You have no responsability with what the people do with the information you give them.

Quote:

Also if they somewhat admit to poaching then I wouldn't really reprimand them much I would just calmly say Cereus sp. to throw them off enough to keep them from doing wrong.



I don't agree with this. It's the Shroomery mission to spread accurate information and we must stick to this and rather find a way to limit the damage that this mission can inflict on others.

Quote:

Fact is this isnt the only ID request forum. If they really want an ID they will get it.



True, but that's not the point. What I'm trying to do here is to find a way of keeping unscrupulous people from damaging other people's plants. If you identify it as a psychoactive species, you assign a value to it and it may "make it worthwhile" stealing. Sure they can get the same info from elsewhere, so please, do it elsewhere and spare us from feeling a bit guilty of inciting them - I know I do.


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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Offlinekosmokratorshaman
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Re: On ID requests [Re: LSoares]
    #22018363 - 07/30/15 04:55 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don't feel guilty.


--------------------
I am.


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Offlinekizatzhaddarak
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Registered: 10/13/14
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Re: On ID requests [Re: kosmokratorshaman]
    #22023490 - 07/31/15 08:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

This thread is getting out of hand.

First off.. I am not going to play into this ridiculous finger pointing game. and degenerate a discussion into attacks.  It is akin to a witch-hunt, and I do not agree with that. Second of all.

I have weapons for any poacher who will try and trespass on my property. I have a right to protect my private property. (someone Will get a bullet).

Since we are talking of Speculative and dubious legality. why not talk about how assault, works .. in where, we all the the ability to walk away from a situation, rather than take action, and assail someone. Anyone can take any information and skew it and Use it for nefarious purpose. Oppenheimer and Einstein's Theories were used to make the atomic bomb after all. Do we blame THEM for MAKING Nukes?

I BELIEVE in Karma.. I believe that Brahman in infinite wisdom has the course of events in the universe occur the way they do. I WIll (ID) What I want to, because it may help someone. Im not going to sit and Speculate what the intentions are of someone who may do something criminal.  (That, is action THEY take). 

Providing Information.. Doesn't make me an accessory to ANYTHING. Information that I provide is Empirical, and is in no way Criminal.

Lets stop and ask ourselves a min., .. (What is the purpose of being here?)

Is it simply to post narcissistic photos of our plants and fungi?? I would like to think, that perhaps I sometimes (HELP) people with information.

I am not going to give into fatalistic and pessimistic views on humanity and criminal activity.

(I would wave a finger of shame, to each and every one of you who would deny genuine and sincere requests for help.) My job in life is to offer aid in ways that others cant.  so I feel very strongly about this.


--------------------
The Sleeper Must Awaken!  (I do not advocate the ingestion of any substance without extensive research, and or the advice of trained medical and or spiritual personelle)




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OfflineConvergence
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Registered: 07/03/15
Posts: 160
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Re: On ID requests [Re: kizatzhaddarak] * 2
    #22023510 - 07/31/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

kizatzhaddarak said:
This thread is getting out of hand.

First off.. I am not going to play into this ridiculous finger pointing game. and degenerate a discussion into attacks.  It is akin to a witch-hunt, and I do not agree with that. Second of all.

I have weapons for any poacher who will try and trespass on my property. I have a right to protect my private property. (someone Will get a bullet).

Since we are talking of Speculative and dubious legality. why not talk about how assault, works .. in where, we all the the ability to walk away from a situation, rather than take action, and assail someone. Anyone can take any information and skew it and Use it for nefarious purpose. Oppenheimer and Einstein's Theories were used to make the atomic bomb after all. Do we blame THEM for MAKING Nukes?

I BELIEVE in Karma.. I believe that Brahman in infinite wisdom has the course of events in the universe occur the way they do. I WIll (ID) What I want to, because it may help someone. Im not going to sit and Speculate what the intentions are of someone who may do something criminal.  (That, is action THEY take). 

Providing Information.. Doesn't make me an accessory to ANYTHING. Information that I provide is Empirical, and is in no way Criminal.

Lets stop and ask ourselves a min., .. (What is the purpose of being here?)

Is it simply to post narcissistic photos of our plants and fungi?? I would like to think, that perhaps I sometimes (HELP) people with information.

I am not going to give into fatalistic and pessimistic views on humanity and criminal activity.

(I would wave a finger of shame, to each and every one of you who would deny genuine and sincere requests for help.) My job in life is to offer aid in ways that others cant.  so I feel very strongly about this.




That was hilarious. I like how you opened that huge rant with "this thread is getting out of hand."


--------------------
“Reality is what we take to be true. What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based upon our perceptions. What we perceive depends upon what we look for. What we look for depends upon what we think. What we think depends upon what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality.”


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Offlinekizatzhaddarak
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Re: On ID requests [Re: Convergence]
    #22023598 - 07/31/15 09:09 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

RE:  one word. (sigh).


--------------------
The Sleeper Must Awaken!  (I do not advocate the ingestion of any substance without extensive research, and or the advice of trained medical and or spiritual personelle)




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Offlinekosmokratorshaman
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Re: On ID requests [Re: kizatzhaddarak]
    #22023650 - 07/31/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I do blame oppenheimer and einstein.


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I am.


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OfflineLSoares
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Re: On ID requests [Re: kizatzhaddarak] * 1
    #22023668 - 07/31/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

kizatzhaddarak said:
This thread is getting out of hand.

First off.. I am not going to play into this ridiculous finger pointing game. and degenerate a discussion into attacks.  It is akin to a witch-hunt, and I do not agree with that. Second of all.

I have weapons for any poacher who will try and trespass on my property. I have a right to protect my private property. (someone Will get a bullet).

Since we are talking of Speculative and dubious legality. why not talk about how assault, works .. in where, we all the the ability to walk away from a situation, rather than take action, and assail someone. Anyone can take any information and skew it and Use it for nefarious purpose. Oppenheimer and Einstein's Theories were used to make the atomic bomb after all. Do we blame THEM for MAKING Nukes?

I BELIEVE in Karma.. I believe that Brahman in infinite wisdom has the course of events in the universe occur the way they do. I WIll (ID) What I want to, because it may help someone. Im not going to sit and Speculate what the intentions are of someone who may do something criminal.  (That, is action THEY take). 

Providing Information.. Doesn't make me an accessory to ANYTHING. Information that I provide is Empirical, and is in no way Criminal.

Lets stop and ask ourselves a min., .. (What is the purpose of being here?)

Is it simply to post narcissistic photos of our plants and fungi?? I would like to think, that perhaps I sometimes (HELP) people with information.

I am not going to give into fatalistic and pessimistic views on humanity and criminal activity.

(I would wave a finger of shame, to each and every one of you who would deny genuine and sincere requests for help.) My job in life is to offer aid in ways that others cant.  so I feel very strongly about this.



Dear kizatzhaddarak, I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Thank you for your input, anyway.


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
wyrd bið ful aræd
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Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 5,043
Loc: Perfidious Albion Flag
Re: On ID requests [Re: LSoares] * 1
    #22023699 - 07/31/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Now there has been many opinions voiced, and discussions are taking a potentially bad turn, this can be locked.

Blatant poachers are banned from here. Often, threads disappear before many get to see them.


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