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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
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CHeifM4sterDiezL said: That one HatingEelsIsEasy guy is pretty good at finding patterns linking numbers and random crap maybe you guys should team up.
if you watch though, in order to prove a point some numbers will be discarded, I see it in the conspiracy theories forum, they'll disregard any number that doesnt help to prove their belief.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Eggtimer]
#21999814 - 07/26/15 12:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Eggtimer said: Well this is the debate. Are humans imposing their emotions on the world or is the world imposing emotions on humans. From the time you're a school aged child you're taught that you are projecting human emotions onto animals and the world, personification.
But didn't human emotional structures evolve from animals. While animals don't have the same sense of self is it unreasonable to say that they are feeling emotion just like us?
I disagree that they dont have the same sense of self or that we actually project these emotions, I've grown up with a variety of animals and have seen behaviors that were based on emotions such as fear, joy or the desire to be accepted
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Prisoner#1]
#21999853 - 07/26/15 12:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Eggtimer]
#21999873 - 07/26/15 12:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Eggtimer said:
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CHeifM4sterDiezL said: heres thing about stuff http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/you-have-a-hive-mind/
Yeahhh that's the shit I'm looking for. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/describing-nature-math.html
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So did we humans invent mathematics, or was it already out there, limning the cosmos, awaiting the likes of Euclid to reveal it? In his book Mathematics in Western Culture, the mathematician Morris Kline chose to sidestep the philosophical and focus on the scientific: "The plan that mathematics either imposes on nature or reveals in nature replaces disorder with harmonious order. This is the essential contribution of Ptolemy, Copernicus, Newton, and Einstein." Seeing the invisible
Formulas like Galileo's and Netwon's make the invisible visible. With d = 16t2, we can "see" the motion of falling objects. With Newton's equation on gravity, we can "see" the force that holds the moon in orbit around the Earth. With Einstein's equations, we can "see" atoms. "Einstein is famous for a lot of things, but one thing that is often overlooked is he's the first person who actually said how big an atom is," says Jim Gates, a physicist at the University of Maryland. "Einstein used mathematics to see a piece of the universe that no one had ever seen before."
Today, with advanced technology, we can observe individual atoms, but some natural phenomena defy any description but a mathematical one. "The only thing you can say about the reality of an electron is to cite its mathematical properties," noted the late mathematics writer Martin Gardner. "So there's a sense in which matter has completely dissolved and what is left is just a mathematical structure." Charles Darwin, who admitted to having found mathematics "repugnant" as a student, may have put it best when he wrote, "Mathematics seems to endow one with something like a new sense."
And because the same mathematical law may govern multiple phenomena, a curious scientist can discover relationships between those phenomena that might have otherwise gone undetected. Trigonometric functions, for instance, apply to all wave motions—light, sound, and radio waves as well as waves in water, waves in gas, and many other types of wave motions. The person who "gets" these trig functions and their properties will ipso facto "get" all the phenomena that these functions govern.
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The Ecstatic said: Free will is an illusion.
I read this backwards. It may be but does it matter and is all free will an illusions. The old argument kant made was ought implies can.
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Ought implies can is an ethical formula ascribed to Immanuel Kant that claims an agent, if morally obliged to perform a certain action, must logically be able to perform it:
For if the moral law commands that we ought to be better human beings now, it inescapably follows that we must be capable of being better human beings.[1]
The action to which the "ought" applies must indeed be possible under natural conditions.[2]
Kant believed this principle was a categorical freedom, bound only by the free will, as opposed to the Humean hypothetical freedom ("Free to do otherwise if I had so chosen").[3] There are several ways of deriving the formula, for example, the argument that it is wrong to blame people for things that they cannot control.[4]
I disagree with Kant, philosophical semantics if you ask me.
We clutch onto it because it keeps our criminal justice system intact. If people started accepting that a person commits a crime (or does anything) because of two things: genetics and environment (neither of which the person has control over), the system in place has no moral grounds.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts


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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21999878 - 07/26/15 12:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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people dont have control of their environment?
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21999879 - 07/26/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Free will never has a chance. Your consciousness is thrust into an environment with a genetic code.
You don't choose your genetics. You don't choose your environment.
Every single decision you ever make from conception is based on two things you never had control over. There's simply no room for free will.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts


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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Like your not free at all ur tied to a body in a spacific place and time. But within that your very clearly making choices.
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Prisoner#1]
#21999885 - 07/26/15 12:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Prisoner#1 said:
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Eggtimer said: Well this is the debate. Are humans imposing their emotions on the world or is the world imposing emotions on humans. From the time you're a school aged child you're taught that you are projecting human emotions onto animals and the world, personification.
But didn't human emotional structures evolve from animals. While animals don't have the same sense of self is it unreasonable to say that they are feeling emotion just like us?
I disagree that they dont have the same sense of self or that we actually project these emotions, I've grown up with a variety of animals and have seen behaviors that were based on emotions such as fear, joy or the desire to be accepted
Ok cool we can agree on something haha. I think everything probably feels like it's in the middle and most important just like us. Do you think if we ever meet aliens they we have emotions recognizable to us?
If you want look into self organized criticality systems. I think they explain the idea better.

I'm not sure how legit this source is it's called quantum magazine so... Edit: It's a part of the https://www.simonsfoundation.org/ which seems legit. A Fundamental Theory to Model the Mind
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Think of sand running from the top of an hourglass to the bottom. Grain by grain, the sand accumulates. Eventually, the growing pile reaches a point where it is so unstable that the next grain to fall may cause it to collapse in an avalanche. When a collapse occurs, the base widens, and the sand starts to pile up again — until the mound once again hits the critical point and founders. It is through this series of avalanches of various sizes that the sand pile — a complex system of millions of tiny elements — maintains overall stability.
While these small instabilities paradoxically keep the sand pile stable, once the pile reaches the critical point, there is no way to tell whether the next grain to drop will cause an avalanche — or just how big any given avalanche will be. All one can say for sure is that smaller avalanches will occur more frequently than larger ones, following what is known as a power law.
Bak introduced self-organized criticality in a landmark 1987 paper — one of the most highly cited physics papers of the last 30 years. Bak began to see the stabilizing role of frequent smaller collapses wherever he looked. His 1996 book, “How Nature Works,” extended the concept beyond simple sand piles to other complex systems: earthquakes, financial markets, traffic jams, biological evolution, the distribution of galaxies in the universe — and the brain. Bak’s hypothesis implies that most of the time, the brain teeters on the edge of a phase transition, hovering between order and disorder.
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“The structure of the brain — the precise map of who connects with whom — is almost irrelevant by itself,” Chialvo said — or rather, it is necessary but not sufficient to decipher how cognition and behavior are generated in the brain. “What is relevant is the dynamics,” Chialvo said. He then compared the brain with a street map of Los Angeles containing details of all the connections at every scale, from private driveways to public freeways. The map tells us only about the structural connections; it does not help predict how traffic moves along those connections or where (and when) a traffic jam is likely to form. The map is static; traffic is dynamic. So, too, is the activity of the brain. In recent work, Chialvo said, researchers have demonstrated that both traffic dynamics and brain dynamics exhibit criticality.
Sporns emphasizes that it remains to be seen just how robust this phenomenon might be in the brain, pointing out that more evidence is needed beyond the observation of power laws in brain dynamics. In particular, the theory still lacks a clear description for how criticality arises from neurobiological mechanisms — the signaling of neurons in local and distributed circuits. But he admits that he is rooting for the theory to succeed. “It makes so much sense,” he said. “If you were to design a brain, you would probably want criticality in the mix. But ultimately, it is an empirical question.”
Edited by Eggtimer (07/26/15 12:58 PM)
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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CHeifM4sterDiezL said: people dont have control of their environment?
Nope. Every decision you make is based on your genetics and environment. Genetics we can easily say is beyond control. And your environment is what it is based on decisions you make. Each decision is based on previous decisions. You trace it back to the start and you get to a place where you had absolutely no control.
Think of it like this: Your life is a complex math equation. Your genetics and environment are variables. At no point in the equation can you just start adding random numbers, everything must reconcile with the two variables of which you have no control.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
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CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Like your not free at all ur tied to a body in a spacific place and time. But within that your very clearly making choices.
Choices you would have always made.
From the moment you were born, you were always going to post in this shroomery thread.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21999920 - 07/26/15 01:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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thats not true at all there were infante possibilites of what could have happened
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21999927 - 07/26/15 01:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The Ecstatic said:
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CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
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CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Like your not free at all ur tied to a body in a spacific place and time. But within that your very clearly making choices.
Choices you would have always made.
From the moment you were born, you were always going to post in this shroomery thread.
If I can imagine a world where things happened differently, did they? If the universe is infinite it is said they eventually anything and everything must happen. IT doesn't appear to be infinite but what can't you imagine? If the imagination is infinite where does that leave the universe and determinism?
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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CHeifM4sterDiezL said: thats not true at all there were infante possibilites of what could have happened
That's why there's variables.
The point being you can't choose the variables because their values are decides before you even have a brain.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Eggtimer]
#21999939 - 07/26/15 01:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Eggtimer said:
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The Ecstatic said:
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CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
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CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Like your not free at all ur tied to a body in a spacific place and time. But within that your very clearly making choices.
Choices you would have always made.
From the moment you were born, you were always going to post in this shroomery thread.
If I can imagine a world where things happened differently, did they? If the universe is infinite it is said they eventually anything and everything must happen. IT doesn't appear to be infinite but what can't you imagine? If the imagination is infinite where does that leave the universe and determinism?
Your ability to think of something other than what's happening in front of your eyes has no bearing on free will.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21999950 - 07/26/15 01:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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everything is just unfolding its not like it has a predetermined order
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21999962 - 07/26/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The Ecstatic said:
Your ability to think of something other than what's happening in front of your eyes has no bearing on free will.
So if they universe repeated a infinite amount of times I'd always end of back here? I love this idea in the dark souls universe not so much this one
I Nietzsche
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The Eternal Return is one of Nietzsche's most important thoughts. Nietzsche was not the first to write on the subject, but he did expand the idea of recurrence greatly. He first encountered the idea in his reading of Heinrich Heine, whom Nietzsche admired. Here is a selection from Heine's writing:
For time is infinite, but the things in time, the concrete bodies are finite.... Now, however long a time may pass, according to the eternal laws governing the combinations of this eternal play of repetition, all configurations that have previously existed on this earth must yet meet, attract, repulse, kiss, and corrupt each other again.... And thus it will happen one day that a man will be born again, just like me, and a woman will be born, just like Mary (citation from Kaufmann's Translator's Introduction to The Gay Science, p. 16).
If the world may be thought of as a certain definite quantity of force and as a certain definite number of centers of force -- and every other representation remains indefinite and therefore useless -- it follows that, in the great dice game of existence, it must pass through a calculable number of combinations. In infinite time, every possible combination would at some time or another be realized; more: it would be realized an infinite number of times. And since between every combination and its next recurrence all other possible combinations would have to take place, and each of these combinations conditions the entire sequence of combinations in the same series, a circular movement of absolutely identical series is thus demonstrated: the world as a circular movement that has already repeated itself infinitely often and plays its game ad infinitum. (WP 1066)
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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CHeifM4sterDiezL said: everything is just unfolding its not like it has a predetermined order
Yes it does.
I'm not saying there's a purpose, but you can't change the future.
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Shroomopotamus
Happy Mushrooming



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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Prisoner#1]
#21999987 - 07/26/15 01:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Prisoner#1 said:
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Eggtimer said:
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Prisoner#1 said: spotting patterns doesnt imply a lack of free will
I agree with this because even if all action all predetermined it doesn't mean you aren't "free".
nothing is predetermined and the whole crux of the debate on that bullshit hinges on "well it was already predetermined that you'd say/do that", it's the argument of 8 year olds
You were destined to say that.
-------------------- * Live by the mushroom, die by the mushroom
    This is a trap! A trap! You are all busted! Busted! You fools!
If a time comes where I fail to appear I've been abducted and I will miss you all Please smile and pet puppies as often as possible Be happy Be nice (<3);}
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Eggtimer]
#21999988 - 07/26/15 01:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Eggtimer said:
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The Ecstatic said:
Your ability to think of something other than what's happening in front of your eyes has no bearing on free will.
So if they universe repeated a infinite amount of times I'd always end of back here? I love this idea in the dark souls universe not so much this one
I Nietzsche
Quote:
The Eternal Return is one of Nietzsche's most important thoughts. Nietzsche was not the first to write on the subject, but he did expand the idea of recurrence greatly. He first encountered the idea in his reading of Heinrich Heine, whom Nietzsche admired. Here is a selection from Heine's writing:
For time is infinite, but the things in time, the concrete bodies are finite.... Now, however long a time may pass, according to the eternal laws governing the combinations of this eternal play of repetition, all configurations that have previously existed on this earth must yet meet, attract, repulse, kiss, and corrupt each other again.... And thus it will happen one day that a man will be born again, just like me, and a woman will be born, just like Mary (citation from Kaufmann's Translator's Introduction to The Gay Science, p. 16).
If the world may be thought of as a certain definite quantity of force and as a certain definite number of centers of force -- and every other representation remains indefinite and therefore useless -- it follows that, in the great dice game of existence, it must pass through a calculable number of combinations. In infinite time, every possible combination would at some time or another be realized; more: it would be realized an infinite number of times. And since between every combination and its next recurrence all other possible combinations would have to take place, and each of these combinations conditions the entire sequence of combinations in the same series, a circular movement of absolutely identical series is thus demonstrated: the world as a circular movement that has already repeated itself infinitely often and plays its game ad infinitum. (WP 1066)
Yes, assuming the universe is identical to this one and starts in an identical way.
Here's an example I like to use:
Two identical people are born into identical universes.
Do they lead identical lives? I would argue yes, because there's nothing different. Their genetics and environments are identical, there's no way differences could exist.
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
Shroomopotamus said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Eggtimer said:
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Prisoner#1 said: spotting patterns doesnt imply a lack of free will
I agree with this because even if all action all predetermined it doesn't mean you aren't "free".
nothing is predetermined and the whole crux of the debate on that bullshit hinges on "well it was already predetermined that you'd say/do that", it's the argument of 8 year olds
You were destined to say that.

Pris is frightened by the fact that he doesn't have control.
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