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OfflineEggtimer
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Big data, ants, and free will
    #21999247 - 07/26/15 10:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So with "big data" mathematical trends can be found in seemingly random human behavior.
Where does that leave free will and does it matter since no single person will be able to see their total lack of free will without the assistance of technology? Assuming all actions are determined by some maths which can't be assumed yet the tech is still very young.

There is what is know as spontaneous order in natural and universal systems. It appears in humans too. The myth of the wild west is that it was "wild" and lawless. Humans are animals when left to their own devices they will swarm with chaotic order like many other organisms. OR at least this is what I think.

SYNC: The Emerging Science of Spontaneous Order
Quote:

If you're looking for something close to sci fi, read how the periods of the Kirkwood gaps in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter are locked into the period of Jupiter by integer ratios and how this leads to an idea which if it "turns out to be right, we have to thank astronomical synchrony not only for killing the dinosaurs, and making room for our ancestors, but also providing the water that made life on earth possible." (p. 126)

Do you go for brain waves? Then read how in 1995

    the biologists David Welsh and Steve Reppert at the Massachusetts General Hospital discovered that the brain does contain a population of oscillators with distributed naturals frequencies, which do pull one another into synchrony.... These are the cells of the circadian pacemaker [i.e., periodic, usually biological rhythms], the internal chronometer that keeps us in sync with the world around us. (p. 69)

Brain waves take us rapidly into sync as an explanation of consciousness. And this, inevitably, gets us into the old philosophical question of free will versus determinism.

    These studies paint a disconcerting picture of human existence. As we go about our daily business, feeling in charge of our lives, we may be more robotic than we realize, clanking along from one neural state to another, feeling hungry, recognizing a friend's face, remembering to pick up milk on the way home, all depending on which banks of neurons happen to synchronize at any one moment. Some scientists have speculated that consciousness may be the subjective experience of these states of synchrony passing by in our brains. (p. 283)


One of the features of this book is that the author takes us into the intimate (scientific) and networked lives of those happy few who are devoting their energies to synchronicity studies. We see the emergence of their experiments, theories and computations. We meet mathematical biologist Art Winfree (1941-2002), and his Belousov-Zhabotinsky Soup which

    changes colors back and forth, rhythmically alternating between sky blue and rusty red dozens of times, before eventually relaxing to equilibrium an hour latter, At the molecular scale... trillions of coupled oscillators... in perfect sync. (p. 213)

We meet Yoshiki Kuramoto who dealt with

    a system of infinitely many differential equations, all non-linear, all coupled. And his subsequent analysis that in this case revealed the essence of group synchronization. (p. 55)

We meet Alan Alda, actor and science buff, who wondered about fads such as hula-hoops. (How does one identify a fad? Is Harry Potter a fad?) Could fads be explained by sync theory, which, classically, is limited to rhythmic sync? Later in the story, we hear of the work of Mark Granovetter and of Duncan Watts who have come up with models of fad behavior.




Ants' movements hide mathematical patterns
Here's the math in ants movement they found recently.
Quote:

When ants go exploring in search of food they end up choosing collective routes that fit statistical distributions of probability. This has been demonstrated by a team of mathematicians after analysing the trails of a species of Argentine ant. Studies like this could be applied to coordinate the movement of micro-robots in cleaning contaminated areas for example.

Scientists have yet to discover the mechanisms explaining how flocks of birds, shoals of fish, lines of ants and other complex natural systems organise themselves so well when moving collectively.

To tackle this problem, researchers from Spain and the U.S. have analysed the movements of Argentine ants (Linepithema humile, an invasive species in many parts of the world) while they forage or explore an empty space (a petri dish) and propose a model explaining how they form their routes.

The authors, whose study has been published in the journal Mathematical Biosciences, started by observing the behaviour of ants individually and subsequently as a collective group. They recorded all their movements and based on these experiments, detected that the random changes in the direction of the insects follow mathematical patterns.

“To be more specific, they are a mixture of Gaussian and Pareto distributions, two probability functions which are commonly used in statistics, and that in this case dictate how much the ant ‘turns’ at each step and the direction it will travel in,” María Vela Pérez, researcher at the European University in Madrid and co-author of the study, explains to SINC.

The scientists had already verified in previous studies that the ‘persistence’ of ants, or rather, their tendency not to change their direction while there are no obstacles or external effects, together with the ‘reinforcement’ occurring in areas which they have already visited (thanks to the pheromone trail that they leave) are two factors which determine their routes as they forage.

Now, with this data they have been able to create the model describing the collective movement of the ants on a surface. The numerical simulations on the computer show the formation of ramified patterns very similar to those observed in the petri dishes during the real experiment with ants.

Applications in small robots

Aside from the mere biological interest, these advances could be applied in diverse technological fields. “For example, they could be used to design the coordination of a group of micro-robots or small robots to clean a contaminated area or other tasks,” Vela Pérez points out.

The researcher reminds us that the study of the modelling, organisation and coordination of the animal behaviour is a clear example of multidisciplinary collaboration: “biologists participate to perform the experiments in the laboratory and provide real data, in coordination with mathematicians and physicists who propose and solve the models”.

One of the researchers who has participated in this study is Marco A. Fontelos from the Institute of Mathematical Sciences (ICMAT), who has also co-authored another study regarding the formation of lines of ants that “can be characterised as bifurcations or trailblazing when the concentration of pheromones exceeds a certain value”. The theoretical model is based on partial differential equations and the details are published in the Journal of Mathematical Analysis and Applications.


--------------------
It's all for the :lol:s


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Eggtimer]
    #21999258 - 07/26/15 10:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
So with "big data" mathematical trends can be found in seemingly random human behavior.
Where does that leave free will and does it matter since no single person will be able to see their total lack of free will without the assistance of technology?





spotting patterns doesnt imply a lack of free will


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21999315 - 07/26/15 10:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

ants r really dumb too compared to like bees n actual cool stuff.


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21999352 - 07/26/15 10:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Eggtimer said:
So with "big data" mathematical trends can be found in seemingly random human behavior.
Where does that leave free will and does it matter since no single person will be able to see their total lack of free will without the assistance of technology?





spotting patterns doesnt imply a lack of free will




I agree with this because even if all action all predetermined it doesn't mean you aren't "free".
I feel free and that's what matters(maybe). I could come up with situations where I would feel free but actually not be. I'm not entirely sure it matters though.
This is why I made the thread :awesomenod:

Essentially I think the patterns are going to be realized to be predictable in some way.
Now if you know what's going to happen you can theoretically change it though? but what if the change was also predicted?

http://people.cs.umass.edu/~brenocon/smacss2015/papers/Science-2014-Ruths-1063-4.pdf
Quote:

REPRESENTATION OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR. Human behavior and online platform design. Many social forces that drive the formation and dynamics of human behavior and relations have been intensively studied and are well-known ( 12– 14). For instance, homophily (“birds of a feather flock together”), transitivity (“the friend of a friend is a friend”), and propinquity (“those close by form a tie”) are all known by designers of social media platforms and, to increase platform use and adoption, have been incorporated in their link suggestion algorithms. Thus, it may be necessary to untangle psychosocial from platform-driven behavior. Unfortunately, few studies attempt this. Social platforms also implicitly target
and capture human behavior according to
behavioral norms that develop around and
as a result of the specific platforms. For in-
stance, the ways in which users view Twitter
as a space for political discourse affects how
representative political content will be. The
challenge of accounting for platform-specific
behavioral norms is compounded by their
temporal nature: They change with shifts
in population composition, the rise and fall
of other platforms, and current events (e.g.,
revelations concerning interest and tracking
of social media platforms by intelligence ser-
vices). In the absence of new methodologies,
we must rely on assessments of where such
entanglements likely occur.
Distortion of human behavior.
Develop-
ers of online social platforms are building
tools to serve a specific, practical purpose—
not necessarily to represent social behavior
or provide good data for research. So, the
way data are stored and served can destroy
aspects of the human behavior of interest.
For instance, Google stores and reports final
searches submitted, after auto-completion is
done, as opposed to the text actually typed
by the user (
5
); Twitter dismantles retweet
chains by connecting every retweet back
to the original source (rather than the post
that triggered that retweet). There are valid,
practical reasons for platforms to make such
design decisions, but in many cases these
either obscure or lose important aspects of
the underlying human behavior. Quantifying
and, if possible, correcting for these storage
and access policies should be part of the data
set reporting and curation process.
Nonhumans in large-scale studies.
Despite
attempts by platform designers to police ac-
counts, there are large populations of spam-
mers and bots masquerading as “normal”
humans on all major online social platforms.
Moreover, many prominent individuals
maintain social media accounts that are pro-
fessionally managed to create a constructed
image or even behave so as to strategically
influence other users. It is hard to remove or
correct for such distortions.






Deep learning and AI research is very interesting right now too.

Quote:


http://www.journalofbigdata.com/content/2/1/1
In contrast to more conventional machine learning and feature engineering algorithms, Deep Learning has an advantage of potentially providing a solution to address the data analysis and learning problems found in massive volumes of input data. More specifically, it aids in automatically extracting complex data representations from large volumes of unsupervised data. This makes it a valuable tool for Big Data Analytics, which involves data analysis from very large collections of raw data that is generally unsupervised and un-categorized. The hierarchical learning and extraction of different levels of complex, data abstractions in Deep Learning provides a certain degree of simplification for Big Data Analytics tasks, especially for analyzing massive volumes of data, semantic indexing, data tagging, information retrieval, and discriminative tasks such a classification and prediction.

In the context of discussing key works in the literature and providing our insights on those specific topics, this study focused on two important areas related to Deep Learning and Big Data: (1) the application of Deep Learning algorithms and architectures for Big Data Analytics, and (2) how certain characteristics and issues of Big Data Analytics pose unique challenges towards adapting Deep Learning algorithms for those problems. A targeted survey of important literature in Deep Learning research and application to different domains is presented in the paper as a means to identify how Deep Learning can be used for different purposes in Big Data Analytics.

The low-maturity of the Deep Learning field warrants extensive further research. In particular, more work is necessary on how we can adapt Deep Learning algorithms for problems associated with Big Data, including high dimensionality, streaming data analysis, scalability of Deep Learning models, improved formulation of data abstractions, distributed computing, semantic indexing, data tagging, information retrieval, criteria for extracting good data representations, and domain adaptation. Future works should focus on addressing one or more of these problems often seen in Big Data, thus contributing to the Deep Learning and Big Data Analytics research corpus.





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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Eggtimer]
    #21999369 - 07/26/15 10:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)



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OnlineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #21999401 - 07/26/15 11:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Free will is an illusion.


Think of a city.













Was it San Francisco? Why or why not?

You're only aware of your thoughts AFTER they're thought.


--------------------


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21999419 - 07/26/15 11:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:lolwut:


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21999432 - 07/26/15 11:07 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
heres thing about stuff http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/you-have-a-hive-mind/





Yeahhh that's the shit I'm looking for.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/describing-nature-math.html
Quote:

So did we humans invent mathematics, or was it already out there, limning the cosmos, awaiting the likes of Euclid to reveal it? In his book Mathematics in Western Culture, the mathematician Morris Kline chose to sidestep the philosophical and focus on the scientific: "The plan that mathematics either imposes on nature or reveals in nature replaces disorder with harmonious order. This is the essential contribution of Ptolemy, Copernicus, Newton, and Einstein."
Seeing the invisible

Formulas like Galileo's and Netwon's make the invisible visible. With d = 16t2, we can "see" the motion of falling objects. With Newton's equation on gravity, we can "see" the force that holds the moon in orbit around the Earth. With Einstein's equations, we can "see" atoms. "Einstein is famous for a lot of things, but one thing that is often overlooked is he's the first person who actually said how big an atom is," says Jim Gates, a physicist at the University of Maryland. "Einstein used mathematics to see a piece of the universe that no one had ever seen before."

Today, with advanced technology, we can observe individual atoms, but some natural phenomena defy any description but a mathematical one. "The only thing you can say about the reality of an electron is to cite its mathematical properties," noted the late mathematics writer Martin Gardner. "So there's a sense in which matter has completely dissolved and what is left is just a mathematical structure." Charles Darwin, who admitted to having found mathematics "repugnant" as a student, may have put it best when he wrote, "Mathematics seems to endow one with something like a new sense."

And because the same mathematical law may govern multiple phenomena, a curious scientist can discover relationships between those phenomena that might have otherwise gone undetected. Trigonometric functions, for instance, apply to all wave motions—light, sound, and radio waves as well as waves in water, waves in gas, and many other types of wave motions. The person who "gets" these trig functions and their properties will ipso facto "get" all the phenomena that these functions govern.




Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Free will is an illusion.






I read this backwards. It may be but does it matter and is all free will an illusions.
The old argument kant made was ought implies can.
Quote:

Ought implies can is an ethical formula ascribed to Immanuel Kant that claims an agent, if morally obliged to perform a certain action, must logically be able to perform it:

    For if the moral law commands that we ought to be better human beings now, it inescapably follows that we must be capable of being better human beings.[1]

    The action to which the "ought" applies must indeed be possible under natural conditions.[2]

Kant believed this principle was a categorical freedom, bound only by the free will, as opposed to the Humean hypothetical freedom ("Free to do otherwise if I had so chosen").[3] There are several ways of deriving the formula, for example, the argument that it is wrong to blame people for things that they cannot control.[4]




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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #21999436 - 07/26/15 11:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

like if u read the bee thing it explains it ur getting like a bunch of stimuli n then u like make a decision in like a split second by eliminating the shit that wasnt good n shit.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #21999446 - 07/26/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
ants r really dumb too compared to like bees n actual cool stuff.





ants taste good though, almost like you could make lemonade from them


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #21999465 - 07/26/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
like if u read the bee thing it explains it ur getting like a bunch of stimuli n then u like make a decision in like a split second by eliminating the shit that wasnt good n shit.




I know they've done studies where they see decisions being made in MRIs or something before the person "consciously" makes it.
I'm not completely convinced this means there isn't any "free will" because if you don't like the idea of there not being any free will you can "choose" not to believe it
http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
Quote:

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

The work calls into question the ‘consciousness’ of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how ‘free’ we are to make a choice at a particular point in time.




Edited by Eggtimer (07/26/15 11:13 AM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Eggtimer]
    #21999466 - 07/26/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
spotting patterns doesnt imply a lack of free will




I agree with this because even if all action all predetermined it doesn't mean you aren't "free".





nothing is predetermined and the whole crux of the debate on that bullshit hinges
on "well it was already predetermined that you'd say/do that", it's the argument
of 8 year olds


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21999489 - 07/26/15 11:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Dat honeydew n shit too bad u need an entire army to make a small snack. :sadyes: I wanna get one of those gel antfarms n like mount it wit crazy lights behind it so I can watch em while trippin but im already spread thin on projects.


Edited by CHeifM4sterDiezL (07/26/15 11:17 AM)


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #21999508 - 07/26/15 11:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Ok so what are you trying to say here tht theres some kinda brain frequency wave thing going around controlling everything? What the fucck are you talking bout?


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #21999519 - 07/26/15 11:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Like your not free at all ur tied to a body in a spacific place and time. But within that your very clearly making choices.


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #21999546 - 07/26/15 11:28 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
Ok so what are you trying to say here tht theres some kinda brain frequency wave thing going around controlling everything? What the fucck are you talking bout?




Everything is a pattern even things you don't think of as patterns such as art, you, thought, and language.

My definition of free will would be something like you have control over the actions you think you make. So if I decide to get up to go to the bathroom while writing this I assume I was free to keep writing this or go to the bathroom immediately.
http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
Studies like these are showing well maybe the choice is made before you even realize it.

Then with "big data" if these choices are basically predetermined by your brain some how will they become predictable without brain scans.


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Eggtimer]
    #21999589 - 07/26/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Dewd every decision your ever gonna make isnt stored in your brain waiting to be run. Your brain jus makes decisions for you subconsciously because people dont have time to sit around and think should I run or not when a fucking lion about to kill you.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Eggtimer]
    #21999648 - 07/26/15 11:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Everything is a pattern even things you don't think of as patterns such as art, you, thought, and language.





this statement is backwards, we can find patterns in all of this but they in
themselves are not patterns


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21999690 - 07/26/15 12:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Everything is a pattern even things you don't think of as patterns such as art, you, thought, and language.





this statement is backwards, we can find patterns in all of this but they in
themselves are not patterns




Well this is the debate. Are humans imposing their emotions on the world or is the world imposing emotions on humans.
From the time you're a school aged child you're taught that you are projecting human emotions onto animals and the world, personification.

But didn't human emotional structures evolve from animals. While animals don't have the same sense of self is it unreasonable to say that they are feeling emotion just like us?
Here's some proof.
In the rat study rats most of them would save their fellow rats first even if they were offered the chance at food
Rats will try to save members of their own species from drowning
Do flies have fear (or something like it)?

Quote:

So did we humans invent mathematics, or was it already out there, limning the cosmos, awaiting the likes of Euclid to reveal it? In his book Mathematics in Western Culture, the mathematician Morris Kline chose to sidestep the philosophical and focus on the scientific: "The plan that mathematics either imposes on nature or reveals in nature replaces disorder with harmonious order. This is the essential contribution of Ptolemy, Copernicus, Newton, and Einstein."
Seeing the invisible




Edited by Eggtimer (07/26/15 12:02 PM)


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Big data, ants, and free will [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21999693 - 07/26/15 12:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That one HatingEelsIsEasy guy is pretty good at finding patterns linking numbers and random crap maybe you guys should team up.


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