Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineExperimentalCat
I'm a teapot

Registered: 04/15/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Victoria, Australia Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Can you actually know?
    #21998474 - 07/26/15 05:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The room you're in exists in your mind in the form of perception.
Your mind exists within the room you are perceiving.

With both these premises in mind, how do you know there is anything outside the room?


Edited by ExperimentalCat (07/26/15 05:25 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesecondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/05/15
Posts: 532
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Last seen: 9 months, 6 days
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: ExperimentalCat]
    #21998514 - 07/26/15 06:06 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

How do you know that the room is even real to begin with?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineExperimentalCat
I'm a teapot

Registered: 04/15/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Victoria, Australia Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: secondorder]
    #21998859 - 07/26/15 08:35 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Same question really, just as relevant though.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: ExperimentalCat]
    #21998884 - 07/26/15 08:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Sigh.  I think one knows via common sense, and that one knows that one knows.  You just have to decide that reality is real enough, and get on with life.  What you describe is a rather uninteresting form of solipsism.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: ExperimentalCat] * 1
    #21999124 - 07/26/15 10:01 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ExperimentalCat said:
The room you're in exists in your mind in the form of perception.
Your mind exists within the room you are perceiving.

With both these premises in mind, how do you know there is anything outside the room?




Previous perceptions recorded as memories, of course...

Don't make the mistake of thinking perception is reality - it isnt.  That cute phrase is a kind of metaphor, not a truism.  What you think is reality is actually your perceptions.  Reality, that which exists regardless of perception, is ultimately and forever unknowable.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21999734 - 07/26/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

ExperimentalCat said:
The room you're in exists in your mind in the form of perception.
Your mind exists within the room you are perceiving.

With both these premises in mind, how do you know there is anything outside the room?




Previous perceptions recorded as memories, of course...

Don't make the mistake of thinking perception is reality - it isnt.  That cute phrase is a kind of metaphor, not a truism.  What you think is reality is actually your perceptions.  Reality, that which exists regardless of perception, is ultimately and forever unknowable.




:heart:QFGDT


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: Tropism]
    #22002194 - 07/26/15 10:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Sigh.  I think one knows via common sense, and that one knows that one knows.  You just have to decide that reality is real enough, and get on with life.  What you describe is a rather uninteresting form of solipsism.




I'd bet someone could probably hear that sigh through at least one layer of plaster DQ.

Ha, I just spent my day trying to make a response and have had to give up. :undecided:

I don't think there is anything wrong with Cartesians. But I hate Descartes (It's an old attempt. I decided to make an edit there instead, with what thoughts I had in mind.) 


Edited by Kurt (07/27/15 01:37 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDubiousNotation
Stranger
 User Gallery


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 24
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: Kurt]
    #22002587 - 07/27/15 01:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Sigh. I think one knows via common sense, and that one knows that one knows.  You just have to decide that reality is real enough, and get on with life.  What you describe is a rather uninteresting form of solipsism.




LOL, agreed. "Issues" like this are a waste of time imo. Its as meaningful and philosophically engaging as a chicken/egg discussion. Not attacking the OP just my opinion, and others...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblequinn
some kinda love
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: ExperimentalCat]
    #22002862 - 07/27/15 04:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ExperimentalCat said:
The room you're in exists in your mind in the form of perception.
Your mind exists within the room you are perceiving.

With both these premises in mind, how do you know there is anything outside the room?




i can answer the riddle..

if according to premise 1 the room exists in your mind then you know your mind is outside of the room


--------------------
dripping with fantasy


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22004453 - 07/27/15 01:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Sigh.  I think one knows via common sense, and that one knows that one knows.  You just have to decide that reality is real enough, and get on with life.  What you describe is a rather uninteresting form of solipsism.



Common sense is not a strong indicator, but it is solipsism indeed, with all it's consequences...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 3 hours
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: ExperimentalCat]
    #22005321 - 07/27/15 04:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What is knowing?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: xFrockx]
    #22005346 - 07/27/15 04:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well Frock, in the immortal words of Socrates (approximately), there is only one thing I know:  I don't know what knowing is.  And I don't know how I know that.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #22005585 - 07/27/15 05:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Sigh.  I think one knows via common sense, and that one knows that one knows.  You just have to decide that reality is real enough, and get on with life.  What you describe is a rather uninteresting form of solipsism.



Common sense is not a strong indicator, but it is solipsism indeed, with all it's consequences...




I'd add as a little caveat that solipsism can be described as a way of actively looking away from the consequences too.

For instance; isn't solipsism in a way, perfectly feasible as an approach?

How about when we assume the approach of doubting until we reach what is indubitable, in general?

We do not bear this in terms of content, and assume it formally or for its own sake as an approach or "progress" towards something indubitable.

Nah, we're not these cartesian "solipsists" at all, are we...?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineusulpsychonaut
Male

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand. Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: ExperimentalCat]
    #22013415 - 07/29/15 05:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well sure reality is all in the mind and nothing is real, but to really embrace this insight is suicide. To really rebel against the mind could only result in death and death would be victory, as death is in the mind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 36 minutes, 9 seconds
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: ExperimentalCat]
    #22017376 - 07/29/15 09:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ExperimentalCat said:
The room you're in exists in your mind in the form of perception.
Your mind exists within the room you are perceiving.

With both these premises in mind, how do you know there is anything outside the room?




Because you're not in the room with me :sherlock:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #22018126 - 07/30/15 01:46 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Ha, clever one. Or would that just be common sense?

Arguably all statements here are based on forms of reference, ie. of more or less common sense, but they can prove interesting.

It makes me think, common sense basis is generally a way of referencing affairs in the world that can be generally characterized in a transparent way, and that reference is what we call "common". But then, what that form of reference is also depends on the manner of how you stumble upon it.

For example, how about Momentos... If you lost your memories but carry signs of what is outside, you can know that there was a life outside the room that way.

You may have a testimony of someone reliable. If that seems really common, think about how this thought experiment must be based, maybe unconventionally. It is probably not exactly just "fact consensus" you would be seeking by asking "Is there an outside to this room?", but then you could. :lol: 

Here's one that gets me. Even if you were born in the room, you can know there is always another side, or at least contiguous dimension to any boundary you can touch or see. You hold a cardboard box in your hands and extrapolate an analogy.

That is the interesting one of course and the one that stands out, but it is as hard to describe as a 2001 Space Odyssey Monolith...

Maybe we are the rational animals, Aristotle said... The ones who put or find themselves put in cages (or conceptual boxes) only to bust out.

I think there is something essential about the three fold plurality and structure of this question. We are implicated beyond duality, and we have this black hole like subjective mental space, at the same time. That is our world.

We navigate and "prefer" to find these layers by certain reference apparatuses, which we nonetheless ground in a common way.

This all reminds me of Supervenience theory, something I read a while ago, about reconciling with these levels of philosophical boundaries and strata. It is described from a philosophical departure in the Donald Davidson essay Mental Events. Wiki characterizes it as "physicalist and non-reductive approach." A general definition would be "Supervenience is an ontological relation that is used to describe cases where (roughly speaking) the lower-level properties of a system determine its higher level properties...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,561
Loc: Utah
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: ExperimentalCat]
    #22018147 - 07/30/15 01:58 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Because science bitches!
:superiority:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarihuana
Stranger
Male

Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 86
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: ExperimentalCat]
    #22021056 - 07/30/15 05:32 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

YOU DONT KNOW!!    :loveintheair:


--------------------
:jesus:?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAjahn Don
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/05/15
Posts: 482
Loc: The buckle of the Bible belt
Last seen: 9 months, 1 day
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: Marihuana]
    #22038730 - 08/03/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Doubt is the only thing keeping me from being an arrogant asshole. I can never be sure, therefore I'm okay. Can I actually know?

A. I don't think so.
B. I can't be sure.
C. I hope not.
D. None of the above


--------------------
"He's not altogether dense, but he's not altogether there."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: Can you actually know? [Re: ExperimentalCat]
    #22039081 - 08/03/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Define know:shrug:


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* elegant debunkerry redgreenvines 439 10 08/24/11 08:36 PM
by Diploid
* The Stoned Ape Theory
( 1 2 3 4 all )
SlaveToNoThought 2,342 65 03/07/16 05:49 AM
by Psychogenic
* Proof of reality
( 1 2 3 all )
sudly 2,399 46 07/01/15 07:21 PM
by tryptkaloids
* The illusory nature of reality
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
DividedQuantumM 2,276 122 01/24/17 08:24 PM
by Rahz
* Free Will
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
blackdust 3,845 89 05/22/15 08:28 PM
by Pyramid Scheme
* Why is my awareness centered on ME? What is subjectivity?
( 1 2 all )
Sleepwalker 1,244 25 12/14/08 02:12 AM
by zannennagara
* What sort of expert is an expert in consciousness?
( 1 2 3 all )
viktor 2,529 44 02/13/16 10:18 AM
by Icelander
* Asleep in life's waiting room? adzam 1,056 5 09/08/09 08:14 PM
by MarkostheGnostic

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,405 topic views. 2 members, 7 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.024 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 16 queries.