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InvisibleRahz
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Money power and god
    #21993516 - 07/25/15 01:17 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It used to be that a country's leadership headed the wealthiest and most powerful cooperation and considered by a portion to be a god or a representative of a god. Has anything really changed?

:monkeydance:


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Money power and god [Re: Rahz]
    #21994099 - 07/25/15 08:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Only cosmetically.  We've been playing the same game here for a very long time.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Money power and god [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21995264 - 07/25/15 01:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Are there more atheists? Or are they just out of the closet?


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Money power and god [Re: Rahz]
    #21996747 - 07/25/15 06:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think only the words change.  The people don't.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Money power and god [Re: Rahz]
    #21998368 - 07/26/15 03:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Are there more atheists?




My gut feeling says so. From what I understand from the limited amount of history I have delved into, religion was the state for most of recorded history.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineGoldenEye
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Re: Money power and god [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #21998370 - 07/26/15 03:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

But who wrote history? Which books survived the burnings?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Money power and god [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22001061 - 07/26/15 05:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Are there more atheists?




My gut feeling says so. From what I understand from the limited amount of history I have delved into, religion was the state for most of recorded history.




I would like to think so, but am not sure it's the case. Admitting to atheism in the past would be a fatal mistake. OTOH, being exposed to little to no science might postpone or nullify the "atheist awakening" in an individual. Conjecture on my part, though I suspect atheist numbers are higher per capita in modern nations... though again there's a corresponding level of freedom in modern nations to speak ones mind.

I suppose that in itself is noteworthy, but in relation to the topic it might be a drop in the bucket. In addition an atheist beholden to a materialistic "god" is not much different than a theist when it comes to "money power and god".


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleextreme
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Re: Money power and god [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22004032 - 07/27/15 11:25 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Only cosmetically.  We've been playing the same game here for a very long time.




Would you describe this answer a little more please?

OTOH, being exposed to little to no science might postpone or nullify the "atheist awakening" in an individual * mostly responding to this part *

Rahz, what you pointed out about atheist numbers and the proportion that are out of the closet makes a lot of sense to me.  In regards to the little "atheist awakening" you mentioned, I think many of the most brilliant minds in history still haven't had the same level of opportunity we have today to "awaken," as you say.  To atheists looking back on such a moment it may seem like no big deal, but at the time in your life when you were likely losing your religion (I did more or less and bet almost all atheists were raised with a dose of religion) making that jump to atheism often feels like a big moment, and I think it always is a big moment.  Basically I'm saying we may take for granted what seems like a simple "response" to religion when really it isn't so simple.

Has anything really changed?

I feel it has some.  DQ if what you meant was that the leaders may not look like or even represent god at all, but still ultimately have a godlike, supreme "voice" that can make moral decisions (I dunno say republican = anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage) then I'm pretty sure we're on the same page.  Nobody today views our politicians and presidents as god or hopefully even godlike/divine/whatever, but we still do grant a sort of moral authority to our leaders.  We give them that power, though.

I guess it's a matter of perspective but I can dig that it'll be a whole different world when our leaders are just people and have no moral or divine authority.  We aren't there yet.  Also the money = power thing... yea there's a strong correlation :lol:

It's kinda funny, maybe it's a good thing but I'm pretty sure it's neither here nor there, but... I can think of times when our past 3 presidents each have been considered the anti-Christ, but none have been said to be god(like).  Hmm... :strokebeard:

* insert Obama/Bush pic with devil horns drawn on with sharpie *


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Money power and god [Re: extreme]
    #22004203 - 07/27/15 12:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

extreme said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Only cosmetically.  We've been playing the same game here for a very long time.




Would you describe this answer a little more please?





Over the last ten thousand years, for our culture (the one that originated in Mesopotamia), there has been better and there has been worse, but over time the system has really, overall, been pretty much the same thing, fundamentally. The only things that change are the appearances and permutations.  On top of that, therefore, we can say that there is pretty strong evidence that meaningful or radical change simply does not take place, and hasn't taken place, despite the idealism.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Money power and god [Re: Rahz]
    #22004292 - 07/27/15 12:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Nothing has changed, only the power became stronger.
There is almost no place to escape those devils anymore.
As long as 'they' don't get everything, they won't loose grip.
It's a wicked game.
And the result depends on our own choice.
Are we already lost, from the beginning, or can we still defend ourselves ?
Will this place be paradise, or continue to transform to a living hell ?


Edited by BlueCoyote (07/27/15 12:38 PM)


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Invisibleextreme
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Re: Money power and god [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #22005134 - 07/27/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Coincidentally I've spent the last hour and a half watching this random like 1.5/5 star show on Netflix (lol) called "The Bible Rules," it's a little corny but if you can get past that some of it is interesting and relates to some of the ideas in this thread IMO.

Sometimes I'm surprised modern society even appears to be as composed as it is.  A factoid I remembered from that show is that 3 countries still regularly stone people to death (Somalia, Iran and Pakistan) :themoreyouknow:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Money power and god [Re: extreme]
    #22005367 - 07/27/15 04:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

extreme said:
Sometimes I'm surprised modern society even appears to be as composed as it is.




Yeah, people are generally pretty well behaved the world over.  If they weren't, the authorities would be able to do precious little about it.  We're only ever one major global collapse away from potential anarchy.


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Invisibleextreme
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Re: Money power and god [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22007062 - 07/27/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I know right?  Just goes to show how convincing of an act our leaders are putting on, or at least how OK with this act most people seem to be.  The thought of revolution personally excites me haha; in the past, how did the "rebels" usually organize themselves?

This just sorta brings me to this idea, hopefully it fits in this thread.  If some kind of societal collapse were to happen, how would you feel about it?  Do you yearn for it, would you rather not have it but embrace it if it happened, or would you do everything in your power to stop something like that from ever happening?  I don't think I yearn for it REALLY hard, but I know I'd definitely embrace it, and secretly part of me might yearn for it a bit actually lol.  Lots of reasons for both sides, really.

Not just all personal reasons though.  I guess following up with that - if a revolution were to happen, we'll say in the USA but if you're somewhere else then in your country, or even a global collapse/reform - do you think the human race would be better off in that new world once the dust had settled and things were basically rebuilt?  Once new governments and societies, etc, we reconfigured and put back together, would we learn from our past or would we end up with something not too diff than what we have now?



Bonus thought - IF aliens ever visited earth, would religion die?  I know that's really out there lol, literally :smile: but it was just some dumb thought that came to me when I thought of the OP and how our views on leaders might change.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Money power and god [Re: extreme]
    #22008895 - 07/28/15 10:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm all for social reform, but violent revolution is hardly ever an answer to anything.  History shows that more often than not today's revolutionary is tomorrow's despot.  It usually doesn't work out, and I don't think a period of true anarchy would be good for that many people.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Money power and god [Re: extreme]
    #22009050 - 07/28/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

extreme said:If some kind of societal collapse were to happen, how would you feel about it?



I yearn for it. I doubt it's a balanced opinion, and as I age I see the futility in it more and more, but it feels quite romantic to me that there's a possibility that a huge chunk of the scourge of the earth that is humankind could be wiped out, happily even if that involves me going with it. As Terence McKenna once said:

"I may be an apocalyptarian, but I'm not a pessimist"

Quote:

extreme said:if a revolution were to happen, we'll say in the USA but if you're somewhere else then in your country, or even a global collapse/reform - do you think the human race would be better off in that new world once the dust had settled and things were basically rebuilt?  Once new governments and societies, etc, we reconfigured and put back together, would we learn from our past or would we end up with something not too diff than what we have now?



Ever read 'The Road' by Cormack McCarthy? It's one of the most gripping books I have ever read. That's the future mankind deserves for what we've done to the planet. Fuck this stifling Goverment/Society bullshit - IMO, humans are a tribal people, and the sooner we stop kidding ourselves about that, the better.

Quote:

extreme said:
Bonus thought - IF aliens ever visited earth, would religion die?  I know that's really out there lol, literally :smile: but it was just some dumb thought that came to me when I thought of the OP and how our views on leaders might change.



I'd love to answer, but I give little credence to aliens or religion (both go in the same box IMO) so can't really help. Good questions though man, I enjoyed answering them.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleNemodeus
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Re: Money power and god [Re: Rahz]
    #22011061 - 07/28/15 05:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
It used to be that a country's leadership headed the wealthiest and most powerful cooperation and considered by a portion to be a god or a representative of a god. Has anything really changed?

:monkeydance:




The question is "who are we to judge?" If they are the most wealthy and powerful people on the planet who is to say it's not at the hand of God?

maybe god should speak up


--------------------
In an entheogen influenced moment of clarity I came to understand that reality manifests as a dream from the collective subconscious minds of all conscious entities. Nothingness made something because we collectively believe it into being, and physical laws given power by the reinforcement of conscious observation. Creation, destruction, and even time itself are but an aspect of ourselves and we of them. Life and death, simply illusions we face from a limited grasp of our own existence. We are one, all is eternal.


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Invisibleextreme
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Re: Money power and god [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22012602 - 07/28/15 10:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I'm all for social reform, but violent revolution is hardly ever an answer to anything.  History shows that more often than not today's revolutionary is tomorrow's despot.  It usually doesn't work out, and I don't think a period of true anarchy would be good for that many people.




Would you say the USA is overall a success or failure?  Or something in between with some good and bad?  I agree I don't think that a violent revolution would necessarily solve much - I think the idea just sounds... thrilling haha.

Jsb, I like that McKenna quote :smile:  I have not read The Road, but if you recommend it I will look into it.  I like stories that have interesting takes on humanity as a whole under different circumstances.

Fuck this stifling Goverment/Society bullshit - IMO, humans are a tribal people, and the sooner we stop kidding ourselves about that, the better.

Are you saying we should go back to smaller communities and "team rules" and all that kind of stuff?  I believe our societies/cultures and even intelligence grow at rates much faster than our DNA and behaviors can progress, and that said I come to virtually the same conclusion that we are still tribal people.  If all our technology was taken away even as our current selves we'd basically just start over again as hunter gatherers huh?  Maybe we could get an early jump on farming?

There's that thread on race currently up... if I'm understanding you're tribal comment correctly I'd really just say that it's only natural for us to look after our own.  Is discrimination always an evil thing, or might it just be a natural preference to those like us?  It might have been in that race thread but I pulled the "if we'd stop kidding ourselves about that, the sooner the better" quote too haha.  I'm posting here cuz I'm having similar thoughts come to mind...

And that thread is getting a little emotional/personal it seems.  I'm not trying to take sides or anything but I don't see the harm in talking about what we think the purpose of racism might be, in a more objective sense, and all that.

The question is "who are we to judge?" If they are the most wealthy and powerful people on the planet who is to say it's not at the hand of God?

:strokebeard: Certainly, if God did choose them, well then I suppose things are working out for God and his chosen leaders.  I don't think it works that way though :ass:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Money power and god [Re: extreme]
    #22013996 - 07/29/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

extreme said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I'm all for social reform, but violent revolution is hardly ever an answer to anything.  History shows that more often than not today's revolutionary is tomorrow's despot.  It usually doesn't work out, and I don't think a period of true anarchy would be good for that many people.




Would you say the USA is overall a success or failure?  Or something in between with some good and bad?




Purely in terms of the intentions of the Founding Fathers, modern America is a complete and total failure.  Purely in terms of my assessment of the decadence, degradation, greed, ultramaterialism and cultural and spiritual shallowness and shabbiness, I also would deem modern America as a complete and total failure.  It's well documented by social critics.

Materially, we are very comfortable -- because we are rich.  Other than that if, for example, James Madison could be alive today to see how our country has evolved, he would be disgusted, I guarantee it.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Money power and god [Re: Nemodeus]
    #22015150 - 07/29/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nemodeus said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
It used to be that a country's leadership headed the wealthiest and most powerful cooperation and considered by a portion to be a god or a representative of a god. Has anything really changed?

:monkeydance:




The question is "who are we to judge?" If they are the most wealthy and powerful people on the planet who is to say it's not at the hand of God?

maybe god should speak up




Money/power/god is all the same thing... influence. The wealthy put their pants on same as everyone else... and those pants can be taken off. :derfase:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Money power and god [Re: Rahz]
    #22021081 - 07/30/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:Money/power/god is all the same thing... influence. The wealthy put their pants on same as everyone else... and those pants can be taken off. :derfase:



Yes, and that's why property rights and a working legal system are so important.


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