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OfflineZeroBoyWD
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 460
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Spirituality limits potential
    #21992905 - 07/24/15 10:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, so I don't believe there is any drug you can take that will make you connect to any extra-dimensional state/plain/entity/hoodoo. The is no chemical reaction that can make your brain tap into external forces. Psychedelics aren't about reaching out, they are about looking in. Any manifestation that is experienced during the trip is 100% a product of your brain. No spirits, no angels, no secret dimensions.

Your brain is an awesome machine. Every moment there is a torrential flood of information bombarding your brain, nonstop. Its very taxing work. So your brain has adapted to filter out all kinds of information. Two big portions of these filters are your subconscious and unconscious mind.
So when you start to come up, the filters start going away. So things like visual filters start going away, you get that whole, deep-focus and increased saturation. Music gets better, like you're hearing the signal uninterrupted. So you dose a little higher.

Next filters that start to slip are the ones of the subconscious. This is what helps you feel more emphatic toward others. Your subconscious harnesses all of your recall. Things you don't think about but can readily access when you focus on something. Without the filter, your subconscious starts reacting on a more primal level, an emotional one. A little higher and your subconscious starts reacting to things that just casually pass through your brain. This is where you can become sensitive to suggestion.

Go for those superhero doses, you break down the filters to the unconscious mind. This is where shit starts getting really nutty. Inexplicable shit, dissociation with reality, speaking with "entities." All of it is coming from inside yourself. You just keep going deeper and deeper into things that make less and less sense to you conscious mind.

Just armchair bullshitting


--------------------
I'm done trying to be "right." I want the exchange of ideas to be the currency of my economy. If you have something I can use, great. I'll try it out. If you think my methods are shit, great. Don't use it. We all want yields.



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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #21993005 - 07/24/15 10:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Finally! Someone who enjoys psychedelics without spouting hippy bullshit!


--------------------

Once you understand the way broadly, you see it in all things. -Musashi


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OfflineZeroBoyWD
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Matt87]
    #22000677 - 07/26/15 04:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It just amazes me that people think they can connect to some spirit realm without any falsifiable evidence. Its "Faith."
People like to talk about experiencing ego death, which is a brag originating from the ego itself, if I ever heard one.
People tend to think of their ego as the thing that tells them that they are the shit. And part of it is, but your ego is so much more than that. It makes up your entire personality. For someone to experience "ego-death" they would be stuck in a catatonic state and die when they fail to fulfill the needs of the Id.
Now, the ego operates on both a conscious and unconscious level.
At the conscious level the Id sends a message "Hungry" and the ego says, "I'm gonna eat a cheeseburger."
At the unconscious level the ego uses its tricks to keep you mentally sound, such as denial: "I don't believe evolution is real because it runs counter to what I'm comfortable with as my understanding of the human species."

So the idea that ego-death is a good thing is terribly flawed. The ego is very important.
The idea that you can somehow Irish your way through it is unbelievably arrogant. I often read about peoples alleged experiences on the subject and all I read from it is a heavy disassociative state. Complete disconnect from objective reality (Be quiet philosophers, surrender to pragmatism!)
I had a drug induced schizophrenic episode when I was young. I had an Out-Of-Body experience, spatial displacement, full blown hallucinations (and I don't mean colors, shit that is not real appearing right in front of me.)
For years I thought had no clue what really happened. My parents and therapists had chalked it up to an over-active imagination, but I knew it really happened. Fast forward to last year when doing a report on ADHD and I start coming across studies that verified that the episodes occur in a small portion of subjects who took Ritalin. The earliest report I found was from 2002.

What the hell does that have to do with psychedelics? I'll tell you.

I was absolutely convinced that what I experienced was real. Astral projection, communication with entities, feeling like this whole world is just a filter over something much larger. Sound familiar? The truth, the real truth, was so much more unsettling. I was given prescription drugs that the side-effects were still unknown and it fucked me up. It was quite the battle with cognitive dissonance when I came to understand the truth.

Is it possible that there are other dimensions. Of this I have no doubt. But I highly doubt they are semi-identical parallel universes with spirits and magic flying around. No, its more of a multi-verse theory. Other universes that have their own parameters for existence that differ from our own, parameters such as the speed of light, or the force of gravity.

What I reject is the idea that there are other dimensions where other sentient beings are hanging around waiting for you to show up on drugs. Consider it. There is a notion that when you start tripping you begin to hear entities speak to you, and not only are they real, they are also omnipotent. They have a greater understanding of existence and they are using that knowledge to advise you on how to live your life, in a different plain of existence.

First of all, how accurate can their knowledge be if they exist outside of our world?
Second, how arrogant are you to believe that you personally are receiving this message of higher knowledge?

You have to ask yourself what is reasonable to believe:

A) There are certain drugs that unlock a connection to external forces that can be act as a glorified telephone

B) There are certain drugs that cause very convincing hallucinations that you can not identify their origin because they are coming from the sub, or unconscious mind.

More from the armchair. To be continued


--------------------
I'm done trying to be "right." I want the exchange of ideas to be the currency of my economy. If you have something I can use, great. I'll try it out. If you think my methods are shit, great. Don't use it. We all want yields.



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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22000829 - 07/26/15 05:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
It just amazes me that people think they can connect to some spirit realm without any falsifiable evidence. Its "Faith."






and I say..

it just amazes me that people think you cannot connect to some spirit realm without any faith.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Matt87]
    #22000840 - 07/26/15 05:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Matt87 said:
Finally! Someone who enjoys psychedelics without spouting hippy bullshit!





Being aware of extre-dimensional perception has nothing to do with hippies, bullshit, or "hippy bullshit".


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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OfflineEggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 5 hours
Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22000899 - 07/26/15 05:25 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
Ok, so I don't believe there is any drug you can take that will make you connect to any extra-dimensional state/plain/entity/hoodoo. The is no chemical reaction that can make your brain tap into external forces. Psychedelics aren't about reaching out, they are about looking in. Any manifestation that is experienced during the trip is 100% a product of your brain. No spirits, no angels, no secret dimensions.

Your brain is an awesome machine. Every moment there is a torrential flood of information bombarding your brain, nonstop. Its very taxing work. So your brain has adapted to filter out all kinds of information. Two big portions of these filters are your subconscious and unconscious mind.
So when you start to come up, the filters start going away. So things like visual filters start going away, you get that whole, deep-focus and increased saturation. Music gets better, like you're hearing the signal uninterrupted. So you dose a little higher.

Next filters that start to slip are the ones of the subconscious. This is what helps you feel more emphatic toward others. Your subconscious harnesses all of your recall. Things you don't think about but can readily access when you focus on something. Without the filter, your subconscious starts reacting on a more primal level, an emotional one. A little higher and your subconscious starts reacting to things that just casually pass through your brain. This is where you can become sensitive to suggestion.

Go for those superhero doses, you break down the filters to the unconscious mind. This is where shit starts getting really nutty. Inexplicable shit, dissociation with reality, speaking with "entities." All of it is coming from inside yourself. You just keep going deeper and deeper into things that make less and less sense to you conscious mind.

Just armchair bullshitting



I'm not saying anything is guaranteed just think about the possibilities. Also if you haven't read or listened to any of Aldous Huxley on youtube really great to check out.


If the universe emulates it's self on every level then things you experience might be a reflection of smaller and bigger realities.


Reality is relative at all levels.
Just 1K miles up humans don't appear to exist any more. Just like you can't see all the things living on you.
I think this data is old but there's still a lot of shit living on you that's not you.
New estimates are only like 37trillion cells.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-humans-carry-more-bacterial-cells-than-human-ones/
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/23/science/37-2-trillion-galaxies-or-human-cells.html



--------------------
It's all for the :lol:s


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Offlinesatch1234
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Registered: 08/12/11
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Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22000910 - 07/26/15 05:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Its all daaa braaain!


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Offlineoomchu
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Registered: 02/01/14
Posts: 141
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22000951 - 07/26/15 05:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
It just amazes me that people think they can connect to some spirit realm without any falsifiable evidence.




Legitimate question: what evidence is there that the subconscious exists?


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OfflineStarless
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Registered: 05/05/14
Posts: 243
Loc: BC
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #22000998 - 07/26/15 05:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I have to side with OP here, there is no real evidence of psychedelics being anything other than internal experiences. That is not to demean them, though. Due to the fractal nature of reality, it's possible for one to draw conclusions about the outside world from understanding one's own mind, but not while bullshitting yourself. If altering the mind couldn't produce convincing changes in reality, then psychedelics wouldn't work in the first place. The human mind is an amazing but extremely fallible machine, eyewitness testimony has proven to be very unreliable in court, and that's without drugs being a factor. Psychedelics are all about questioning preconceived notions, so I think some of you need to think about whether you actually have sound reasoning for your beliefs.


--------------------
Think, it ain't illegal yet. - George Clinton

Substances I have allegedly taken: Cannabis (bud, edibles, and concentrates), Mushrooms (P. Cubensis), LSD, ETH-LAD, ALD-52, DMT, MDMA, Mescaline (Peruvian Torch), 25I-NBOMe, Salvia Divinorum (10x), Syrian Rue, Amanita Muscaria (10x), Cocaine, Nightshade (Henbane).

All posts are hypothetical or entirely fictional.


Edited by Starless (07/27/15 12:56 AM)


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OfflineStarless
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: oomchu]
    #22001026 - 07/26/15 05:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

oomchu said:
Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
It just amazes me that people think they can connect to some spirit realm without any falsifiable evidence.




Legitimate question: what evidence is there that the subconscious exists?




Are you really that unfamiliar with even the most basic aspects of human psychology? There are regulatory processes in our brains that we are not consciously aware of. Do you have to consciously keep your heart beating? Do you plan out your dreams before you go to sleep?


--------------------
Think, it ain't illegal yet. - George Clinton

Substances I have allegedly taken: Cannabis (bud, edibles, and concentrates), Mushrooms (P. Cubensis), LSD, ETH-LAD, ALD-52, DMT, MDMA, Mescaline (Peruvian Torch), 25I-NBOMe, Salvia Divinorum (10x), Syrian Rue, Amanita Muscaria (10x), Cocaine, Nightshade (Henbane).

All posts are hypothetical or entirely fictional.


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OfflineZeroBoyWD
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Registered: 11/21/07
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22001314 - 07/26/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If
Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Being aware of extre-dimensional perception has nothing to do with hippies, bullshit, or "hippy bullshit".



Any evidence to support the claim that they are "extra-dimensional" spaces?\

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
I'm not saying anything is guaranteed just think about the possibilities. Also if you haven't read or listened to any of Aldous Huxley on youtube really great to check out.



A writer.... Yeah he probably has a good grip on the mechanics of the universe and organic chemistry.

Quote:


If the universe emulates it's self on every level then things you experience might be a reflection of smaller and bigger realities.




Does it though? The old "The universe is an atom in a much larger entity" trope is a fun one to think about, until you remember that electrons operate in a field. Not to mention that we have yet to find two identical solar systems anywhere in what we've looked for. And why are the orbiting bodies not identical as electrons are? What constitutes the nucleus on a larger scale? The sun?

Quote:


Reality is relative at all levels.




A philisophical argument as old as time. Relativity only takes you so far. Certainly reality is relative to the subject, but you have to fall into pragmatism to start making sense of the world. Or else why not just assume solipsism and presume you are the only real thing that exists?

Quote:


Just 1K miles up humans don't appear to exist any more. Just like you can't see all the things living on you.




A mere 1000 miles straight into the air and suddenly you can't see people..... Due to the curvature of the planet, even on open sea you can't see things farther than 13 miles from 100ft in the air.
Non-sequitur.

Quote:


I think this data is old but there's still a lot of shit living on you that's not you.
New estimates are only like 37trillion cells.




What does this have to do with anything? The fact that bacteria exist is evidence that we are bacteria on a larger organism? Again, its pure conjecture without any basis of fact.

Its fun to believe in magic. It really is. Makes things feel special. But the real world we live in does not operate that way. These kinds of arguments always fall back to the idea that "Science just can't explain everything."
Which is totally false. Science just can't explain XYZ, yet.

It comes down to what you can prove. You may be able to trip and see a reoccurring entity, but your buddy will never be able to take the same shit and talk to this entity. He will never be able to discuss with the entity the conversations you had unless you told him beforehand and the suggestion has entered his mind. They have done a myriad of 'psychic' experiments with psychedelics (See MK-Ultra) and found them to be totally false.

You can argue that its possible till you're blue in the face, but you still are just making empty conjecture. Much like the proposition of God, its all based on something you want to believe, not what is reasonable to believe.

What evidence do you have to support your arguments? Subjective experience. That's not evidence at all. Its postulation.

This kind of attitude is not just a fun thing to believe, its fucking dangerous. I don't know how sound you guys are mentally, but I've tripped and heard voices telling me I should kill myself. Odds are that wasn't coming from a divine spirit. And on that note, how does one determine the difference between a hallucination and a spiritual message?

When you start to believe that your auditory hallucinations are coming from an external source, you begin to give them credence. If you are on that hippy shit, this probably won't be a bad thing. Universal love, take care of the earth, so forth... But if you are unstable, you might get a very different message.

Now the spiritualists will say things like "you aren't ready, you aren't doing it right" yadda yadda ya... But if its a portal to other realms, you would get there regardless of your mentality.

They like to talk about possibilities. Because anything is possible, right? Hell no its not. Our understanding of the universe is still limited, but we know that a human body can not survive without a brain.
"Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean its not possible"
But it is entirely unreasonable to believe its possible. There is nothing to suggest that its true, so why believe it?
Because you want to. Same reason people still argue against evolution, the truth is unpleasant to them.

And consider your motivations. You think you've made contact with extra-dimensional plains? You must be a pretty special, and unique, maybe even mystic, human being.

Mushrooms have been in human culture for a LOOOOONG time. If they could make legitimate connections with these extra-dimensional spaces, we would have documented and pursued it. Don't give me ancient cultures with shamans and dogma, its bullshit. If it were real, we would have a method of a repeatable process. Not one that applies to a special individual, but a large percentage of people.

Its like Fox Mulder's poster in his office. "I want to believe." But its not real. Aliens with life spans of 1000's of years to travel to this small planet and stick things in the inhabitants butts. Come on now.

I also enjoy how when asked which is more reasonable, the believers reject the question outright.

Psychedelics help internal travel, not external. When you deny that truth, you deny yourself what the drugs really have to offer. You are looking to the "spirits" to guide you on how to live. But the truth is, those "spirits" are YOU. Wholly, completely and totally, you.

Most people have to go to therapy for many years to achieve the same level of personal understanding that psychedelics offer you. Your subconscious and unconscious minds are projected into the conscious mind. Do you have any idea how beneficial that can be to you if you can accept and understand that?

You are given access to the deep recesses of your mind. You can reveal to yourself why you have thoughts of jealousy, hate, love, joy... Its all there for you to decipher for yourself. But understanding yourself can be a scary proposition. Indeed, when something comes from inside, you can learn to develop control. But something that's external, its beyond you. Its a 'gift', a 'message', a higher power. Something you can look to for guidance. But its all in your mind.

Consider the alternative to your spiritual philosophy. Consider that it is all in your head. That means you still maintain a degree of control. If you have a degree of control, that means that control can be developed. There is evidence to support this in the non-drug world, as the positive benefits of meditation have long been documented (see MRI of monk during meditative state.)
Assuming that psychedelics project your subconscious and later conscious mind to the forefront, consider what happens when you learn to guide it on your own. Ever been talked down from a bad trip? Why can't you do that for yourself? Because the overwhelming force of your subconscious mind can be daunting if you aren't in tune with yourself. There is a whole realm inside your own head that you aren't aware of in your waking life. Tripping allows you to experience that realm and its capabilities in real time rather than the conscious disconnect we don't notice.

Or maybe its just magic.

Again, you decide for yourself which is the more likely explanation


--------------------
I'm done trying to be "right." I want the exchange of ideas to be the currency of my economy. If you have something I can use, great. I'll try it out. If you think my methods are shit, great. Don't use it. We all want yields.



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OfflineZeroBoyWD
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Registered: 11/21/07
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: oomchu]
    #22001318 - 07/26/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

oomchu said:
Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
It just amazes me that people think they can connect to some spirit realm without any falsifiable evidence.




Legitimate question: what evidence is there that the subconscious exists?




:facepalm:


--------------------
I'm done trying to be "right." I want the exchange of ideas to be the currency of my economy. If you have something I can use, great. I'll try it out. If you think my methods are shit, great. Don't use it. We all want yields.



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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22001389 - 07/26/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Alright zeroboywd... you're awesome! That was a fantastic 420th post for not being weed related too.

That post could actually have a positive impact on people's lives.


--------------------

Once you understand the way broadly, you see it in all things. -Musashi


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22001486 - 07/26/15 07:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You may be very depressed which is why you were hearing kill yourself.
"Man is the by-product of mere chance." - I am a worthless person
"We live in a universe alien, cold, and dead." - The world is an inhospitable place
"We have come from nothingness and will return to nothingness." - My past is a tragedy; my future is hopeless


It goes both ways but I never said anyone had to believe anything. I don't claim any knowledge. Individual critical thinking is the path to freedom.
If you're unconformable discussing ideas where you want to mute their discussion completely you may have the problem.
Quote:

Beck suggested that depressed people draw illogical conclusions about situations, and these lead to a distortion of reality, which manifest in the magnification of negative experiences and the trivialization of neutral or positive ones.

The cognitive triad is the source of the extremely low self-esteem of depressed subjects. Indeed it can lead to micromanic(the opposite of grandiose) delusions, manifesting in the extreme form as psychosis.

Science is not illogical, but may suffer from overexclusiveness. It must be biased in that direction in order to build a consistent knowledge system by keep "soft" poorly validated concepts outside of its domain. Nevertheless, what lies outside of the semantic universe of "official science" today may be part of it tomorrow.




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OfflineJanky Tits
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #22001568 - 07/26/15 07:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

Matt87 said:
Finally! Someone who enjoys psychedelics without spouting hippy bullshit!





Being aware of extre-dimensional perception has nothing to do with hippies, bullshit, or "hippy bullshit".



Agreed, you don't have to believe but really you can't just disclaim the possibility that there could be an extra plain of reality out there.

Being an Ietsist I just sort of wonder about what psychedelics really can do. I don't claim these things are real but it could be and I think rubbing it off as nonsense is just as naive as blindly accepting it as fact.


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22001584 - 07/26/15 07:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
Does it though? The old "The universe is an atom in a much larger entity" trope is a fun one to think about, until you remember that electrons operate in a field. Not to mention that we have yet to find two identical solar systems anywhere in what we've looked for. And why are the orbiting bodies not identical as electrons are? What constitutes the nucleus on a larger scale? The sun?





There are as many as 200 billion galaxies each with the possibility of 100's of billions of solar systems. How many solar system have we found so far?
500
Yeah 500 is a good sample size out of the 100 billion in our galaxy alone.
http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-space/solar-systems-in-galaxy.html
http://education.jlab.org/qa/atomicstructure_10.html
Atoms are mostly empty space just like space.

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
A writer.... Yeah he probably has a good grip on the mechanics of the universe and organic chemistry.




Only the priests can talk to god. - Only the scientist can talk about the "nature of reality"

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
A philisophical argument as old as time. Relativity only takes you so far. Certainly reality is relative to the subject, but you have to fall into pragmatism to start making sense of the world. Or else why not just assume solipsism and presume you are the only real thing that exists?





"I stand on the shoulders of giants"
Because it's obvious I'm only a very small part of the program. Without the building blocks of other people throughout history and the billions of years of life evolving I would not be here right now.
It's all important. Nothing is greater than anything else.

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:

A mere 1000 miles straight into the air and suddenly you can't see people..... Due to the curvature of the planet, even on open sea you can't see things farther than 13 miles from 100ft in the air.
Non-sequitur.





What you left out is the fact you can't see all the life living on you. Which is more important you or the life living on you?
Without one the other would cease to be. You need microbes to help your body do stuff like break down food/digest and they need you to live in and on.


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OfflineZeroBoyWD
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22001603 - 07/26/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I was depressed, kinda my point. Its like an amplifier for your emotions. I'm not currently depressed, in fact I've been more content with life than I have in years.

And I've never tried to mute anyone's side of the discussion, I just want what they can not provide: Tenable evidence.  Science is not over-exclusive, its just conclusive. We don't call claims scientific if they have no basis in verifiable data.

Why is it that when spirituality is come into question there is not an arguable defense of it? Instead you get a lot of criticisms of the scientific method, that its not complete. Scientific claims are based upon data, spiritual claims claim they can't be quantified. Its bunk, my man. You can believe whatever you like, but I personally reject the idea of believing something cause it sounds neat.


--------------------
I'm done trying to be "right." I want the exchange of ideas to be the currency of my economy. If you have something I can use, great. I'll try it out. If you think my methods are shit, great. Don't use it. We all want yields.



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OfflineZeroBoyWD
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22001619 - 07/26/15 08:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Eggtimer, you are extrapolating on ideas that stem from no evidence of proof, but rather feeling. There is no basis for the argument being made. You can produce postulation, one after the other, but there is nothing that gives it merit.


--------------------
I'm done trying to be "right." I want the exchange of ideas to be the currency of my economy. If you have something I can use, great. I'll try it out. If you think my methods are shit, great. Don't use it. We all want yields.



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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22001844 - 07/26/15 08:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
A philisophical argument as old as time. Relativity only takes you so far. Certainly reality is relative to the subject, but you have to fall into pragmatism to start making sense of the world. Or else why not just assume solipsism and presume you are the only real thing that exists?





Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
A writer.... Yeah he probably has a good grip on the mechanics of the universe and organic chemistry.






http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7686.html

Did you actually read any of his books or listen to him before so easily dismissing him?

Isn't this just how you feel?

I see living things and non living things making the same patterns. This is chaos theory, spontaneous order, and self organized criticality.
You might live in the twilight zone and never noticed because you were born in it.
Quote:

The laws of quantum mechanics and relativity are quite perplexing however it is when the two theories are merged that things get really confusing. This combined theory predicts that empty space isn’t empty at all – it’s a seething and bubbling cauldron of matter and antimatter particles springing into existence before disappearing back into nothingness. Scientists call this complicated state of affairs “quantum foam.” In this video, Fermilab’s Dr. Don Lincoln discusses this mind-bending idea and sketches some of the experiments that have convinced scientists that this crazy prediction is actually true



Foam structures appear all over.
:tripmolecule:












Edited by Eggtimer (07/26/15 09:06 PM)


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22002213 - 07/26/15 10:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If everything is behaving under the psychical and chemical laws of the universe why would they not come together in similar arrangements?


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OfflineFilterhead462
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: satch1234]
    #22002320 - 07/26/15 10:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Believe what ever you choose to believe as long as you're not shitting on someone else's beliefs
Because at the end of the day nobody and I mean nobody knows exactly what is going on right now.
Everything could be wrong but it could be right.
I myself believe that mushrooms are something seriously special to life as a whole, special in a way that I could never comprehend. That have insight into life itself and death
Extra-dimesions may sound far fetched but can you prove that they don't exist,
Can you prove they DMT doesn't actually take you somewhere.
We are all still children exploring our playpen, try telling a child about the universe, they don't have the mental capacity to understand or even believe at that point
Maybe that's what it's like for us, we are not yet far evolved enough to even comprehend that there could be something going on


--------------------

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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22002331 - 07/26/15 11:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

We can speculate as much as humanely possible
but the truth of the matter is that some events in
nature are currently unexplainable.

Example: do you believe the personality conscious, subconscious,
Id, ego, superego etc.. "Soul" if you choose to believe in
such a thing, are physical or intangible? The answer to
This question is important, for if you believe it to
be tangible, then it is something we can physically
observe in someone, which we know is not true.

If it is intangible, then how can it exist inside of
something physical, like our brain? This is outside
the laws of physics and sounds like the magic you refer to.

My point is simply that the universe, existence, and our brains
are enigmas. They are the last frontiers and we can only speculate
as to why, and only work to understand how.

Who knows why these plants effect us the way they do. I don't mean
the chemical relationship to our brains, i mean why it is so
enlightening when it is meant to be poison. The universe is
truly awesome.


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Offlineoomchu
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Starless]
    #22002354 - 07/26/15 11:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Starless said:
Quote:

oomchu said:
Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
It just amazes me that people think they can connect to some spirit realm without any falsifiable evidence.




Legitimate question: what evidence is there that the subconscious exists?




Are you really that unfamiliar with even the most basic aspects of human psychology? There are regulatory processes in our brains that we are not consciously aware of. Do you have to consciously keep your heart beating? Do you plan out your dreams before you go to sleep?




Yes, I am unfamiliar with it. You seem to think berating me with questions will answer my question. They didn't. The question was legitimate, I wasn't asking it to be an asshole. The regulatory processes you speak of are more part of the nervous system which is physical. The subconscious as it is usually described always seemed to me to not have a physical analogue, but to be a process of thought. If that makes sense. I probably should've phrased the question better. It seemed the OP was speculating some type of 'filters' exist which come down when one ingests psychedelics and allows one to access the unconscious part of the mind. I guess my question should have been, what evidence do yo have for this vs. just being fucked up and hallucinating?

It might be good for future discussions if you asked for elaboration.


Edited by oomchu (07/26/15 11:32 PM)


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22002355 - 07/26/15 11:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

A lot of religion nowadays seems based on blind faith. They've replaced direct experience (altered states of consciousness-yoga, mediation, psychedelics,) with faith.
It's the same kind of faith you have when you loan someone money when you know they're probably not going to pay you back.
If there is some part of the brain responsible for "spirituality" could it have become atrophied? 
This is why I don't considered myself anything. I really have no idea. I was a nihilist for around 8 years until I smoked DMT.
I still don't say I'm absolutely certain but I feel a connection to existence and reality that I never had before these experiences even off the drugs. I don't claim there is life after death or god but I also have no problem with these ideas.
I would of never expect to see things this way since I was approaching it from a extremely skeptical point of view.
I can usually reach a consensus with other people who have smoked DMT. Before DMT I could just ignore them because it made no sense but now it does.
If anything at least it's a shared delusion.
The effects of DMT are not being studied much because it's illegal so it's very hard to get funding and legal access to DMT to study it.  We still have no idea what it's for and why it appears in so many things.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447742/
Quote:

Although several articles in the October 2002 issue on Complementary and Alternative Medicine reflect the interest in spirituality that exists in the field, they appear unable to discuss it directly. One of the reasons for this may be that scientific medicine has its roots in a rift from spirituality. Before Western medical practice and research began to involve what was considered to be an unnatural curiosity about the human body, medicine was intricately involved with a person’s spirit or soul. It was during the 16th century in Europe that men began to commit the heresy of stealing dead bodies from graves and actually looking at bones, muscles, and organs. “Laws against dissecting human corpses began to relax during the Renaissance; as a result, the first truly scientific studies of the human body began.”1

The dissecting of bodies has become such a basic feature of medical school education, it may be difficult to imagine the historical sacrilege of this act initially. The Church condemned these “body snatchers,” contributing to Western medicine’s alienation from the spirit. Larry Dossey writes,

    From the sixteenth century on, mind has been progressively expunged from the phenomenal world. . . . Scientific consciousness is alienated consciousness: there is no ecstatic merger with nature, but rather total separation from it. Subject and object are always seen in opposition to each other. . . . The logical end point of this world view is a feeling of total reification: everything is an object, alien, not-me; and I am ultimately an object too, an alienated “thing” in a world of other, equally meaningless things. 2

As an American Indian, I am aware of an entirely different tradition of healing that never split from spirit world. There is no difference, for example, between Navajo religion and Navajo medicine. American Indian medicine consists of spoken prayers, songs that are prayers, rituals, and instruments of prayer. Even herbal medicine comes with prayers for a person’s spirit. It is interesting to me that modern providers have recently “discovered” holistic medicine. It is something like the way Columbus “discovered” America. Suddenly our spiritual practices exist, though they have been practical for centuries. We also experience alienation as a byproduct of would-be spiritual genocide, what Eduardo Duran calls the “soul wound”: “The notion of ‘soul wound’ is one which is at the core of much of the suffering which Indigenous peoples have undergone for centuries.”3(p127)

When modern public health and medical practitioners are able to talk about the spirit and understand what they themselves have lost, I think their wound will begin to heal. Perhaps then they can help the rest of us.





http://www.langtoninfo.com/web_content/9780521755948_frontmatter.pdf
Once again that word faith :scat:
Quote:

In
Science  and  Spirituality:  Making  Room  for  Faith  in  the  Age
of Science
, Michael Ruse offers a new analysis of the often trou-
bled relationship between science and religion. Arguing against both
extremes – in one corner, the New Atheists; in the other, the Cre-
ationists and their offspring, the Intelligent Designers – he asserts that
science is undoubtedly the highest and most fruitful source of human
inquiry. Yet, by its very nature and its deep reliance on metaphor,
science restricts itself and is unable to answer basic, significant, and
potent questions about the meaning of the universe and humankind’s
place within it: Why is there something rather than nothing?
What is
the ultimate source and foundation of morality? What is the nature
of consciousness? What is the meaning of it all? Ruse shows that one
can legitimately be a skeptic about all of these questions, yet why it
is nonetheless open to a Christian, or a member of any faith, to offer
answers. Scientists, he concludes, should be proud of their achieve-
ments but modest about their scope. Christians should be confident
of their mission but respectful of the successes of science.




Quote:

satch1234 said:
If everything is behaving under the psychical and chemical laws of the universe why would they not come together in similar arrangements?



This is what I'm saying. The universe emulates on every level. 
So if you have some level of consciousness because of the structures in your brain could these structures appear else where and create novel forms of it? Basically psychedelics may be all in your head but you are just all in your head too.
If everything in the universe was once part the same thing doesn't that mean it's all connected?
You, everything you see and don't, the earth, the sun, time and space, were all once a part of the same space in a singularity right? Is this why entanglement is a thing? ]
Is my reasoning extremely flawed here or do people dislike the idea that everything is not random chance?


Edited by Eggtimer (07/26/15 11:25 PM)


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #22002395 - 07/26/15 11:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Peoples personality change dramatically after head trauma, drug abuse e.t.c I've seen it. I'd say that is evidence of the pointing towards the brain, infact all evidence points that way..

If you were to damage the thalamus your conscious experience would be completely different, or you may go unconscious from physical lesion.


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OfflineDubiousNotation
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: satch1234]
    #22002457 - 07/27/15 12:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting point regarding DMT Eggtimer. The human race knows very little about it's own enviornment. Im pretty biased in regards to religious and "unreal" occurrences. Obviously I don't mean in the metaphysical sense, but am referring to occurrences bound by physics. I honestly hate discussing metaphysical concepts as it never seems to get anywhere as there is very little to no logical construct. A lot of people it seems use fluffed up words with sparse points. Im doing this to some degree, but Im tired. I agree with the OP personally. I would argue that a belief purely contained within your mind could very well be true, relatively speaking. Sure, it might externalize and interface with the world but it only becomes delusion when the world "reciprocates" your beliefs via skewed or biased perception. However I think you would have to further define delusion. I hold the belief that delusion is a belief such that is contrary to the logical nature of our world, in a word, physics.


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: satch1234]
    #22002504 - 07/27/15 12:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

satch1234 said:
Peoples personality change dramatically after head trauma, drug abuse e.t.c I've seen it. I'd say that is evidence of the pointing towards the brain, infact all evidence points that way..

If you were to damage the thalamus your conscious experience would be completely different, or you may go unconscious from physical lesion.




We usually think as stars and planets as a normal part of the universe but we think conscious life to not be.
If you go back far enough there would only be dust and gas and then if you could exist at this time the forming of stars might not be considered a "natural" part of the universe because it took 100-200 million years for the first stars to happen from what we know.
It took earth almost 10 billion years to form. After it was it only took consciousness life around 3.6 billion.

It doesn't matter if it comes from the brain if consciousness is a "natural" part of the universe. Reaching a definition on consciousness and intelligence is also very sketchy.
Bacterial linguistic communication and social intelligence
Quote:

Bacteria have developed intricate communication capabilities (e.g. quorum-sensing, chemotactic signaling and plasmid exchange) to cooperatively self-organize into highly structured colonies with elevated environmental adaptability. We propose that bacteria use their intracellular flexibility, involving signal transduction networks and genomic plasticity, to collectively maintain linguistic communication: self and shared interpretations of chemical cues, exchange of chemical messages (semantic) and dialogues (pragmatic). Meaning-based communication permits colonial identity, intentional behavior (e.g. pheromone-based courtship for mating), purposeful alteration of colony structure (e.g. formation of fruiting bodies), decision-making (e.g. to sporulate) and the recognition and identification of other colonies – features we might begin to associate with a bacterial social intelligence. Such a social intelligence, should it exist, would require going beyond communication to encompass unknown additional intracellular processes to generate inheritable colonial memory and commonly shared genomic context.




https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=1SQuadczM9oC&oi=fnd&pg=PR5&dq=bacterial+intelligence&ots=w4oxVSOIi9&sig=3JFIJKSf3KCIWFYvuWFuB_VKHdg#v=onepage&q&f=false






http://nightsky.jpl.nasa.gov/docs/SNUniverseWo.pdf
Quote:

Topics Covered
• The supernova explosion releases a lot of the elements that were created in the star during its lifetime and also generates new elements during the explosion, all in the matter of a few seconds.
• If these stars didn’t explode, all those elements would remain locked up inside the star. 
• Almost all the elements except hydrogen were originally generated inside stars and without supernovae to disperse those elements, almost everything we see around us, including us, would not exist. 




Quote:

DubiousNotation said:
Interesting point regarding DMT Eggtimer. The human race knows very little about it's own enviornment. Im pretty biased in regards to religious and "unreal" occurrences. Obviously I don't mean in the metaphysical sense, but am referring to occurrences bound by physics. I honestly hate discussing metaphysical concepts as it never seems to get anywhere as there is very little to no logical construct. A lot of people it seems use fluffed up words with sparse points. Im doing this to some degree, but Im tired. I agree with the OP personally. I would argue that a belief purely contained within your mind could very well be true, relatively speaking. Sure, it might externalize and interface with the world but it only becomes delusion when the world "reciprocates" your beliefs via skewed or biased perception. However I think you would have to further define delusion. I hold the belief that delusion is a belief such that is contrary to the logical nature of our world, in a word, physics.




Well physics doesn't show how everything works, it only works for larger systems.
Quantum physics deals with all the small stuff that everything is made of and it doesn't seem to behave in much logical sense.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's not logical in some way though. It means we don't understand it fully yet or it could be nonlogical or random.
We still don't have any definitive theories for a joining of the small and the large.
String thoery is about the only one I've heard.


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OfflineDubiousNotation
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22002553 - 07/27/15 12:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

EggTimer Said:
Well physics doesn't show how everything works, it only works for larger systems.
Quantum physics deals with all the small stuff that everything is made of and it doesn't seem to behave in much logical sense.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's not logical in some way though. It means we don't understand it fully yet or it could be nonlogical or random.
We still don't have any definitive theories for a joining of the small and the large.
String thoery is about the only one I've heard.




Quantum physics is logical within itself but as you have said, "joining of the small and the large" has proved itself a most challenging feat. Regardless, I believe what you are talking about is more molecular than metaphysical. My point is for someone to believe something that is contrary to what is known would be a logical fallacy. If what you believe cannot be traced to any logical point of data(what is known), as circular as it sounds, I implore you to use data, both physical and perceptual to formulate your own ideals. I do personally find the concept of alternate reality to be plausible. But I don't believe enough data has been gathered to say it exists with even the most infinitesimal amount of weight. To clarify, I am by no means giving an argumentum ad ignorantiam.


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: DubiousNotation]
    #22002581 - 07/27/15 01:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:

A mere 1000 miles straight into the air and suddenly you can't see people..... Due to the curvature of the planet, even on open sea you can't see things farther than 13 miles from 100ft in the air.
Non-sequitur.







Non-sequitur means reaching false conclusions right?
The curvature of the earth isn't a problem once you are not on it any more.
The curvature of earth is only a problem while you're on it.


You can't see humans from space because we're small in comparison to the planet. Just as cells are small in comparison to us and our planet in comparison to the galaxies/universe.
You have to zoom in or you don't see any humans. 

http://www.livescience.com/33895-human-eye.html
Quote:

The Earth's surface curves out of sight at a distance of 3.1 miles, or 5 kilometers. But our visual acuity extends far beyond the horizon. If Earth were flat, or if you were standing atop a mountain surveying a larger-than-usual patch of the planet, you could perceive bright lights hundreds of miles distant. On a dark night, you could even see a candle flame flickering up to 30 mi. (48 km) away.

How far the human eye can see depends on how many particles of light, or photons, a distant object emits. The farthest object visible with the naked eye is the Andromeda galaxy, located an astonishing 2.6 million light-years from Earth. The galaxy's 1 trillion stars collectively emit enough light for a few thousand photons to hit each square centimeter of Earth every second; on a dark night, that's plenty to excite our retinas.








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Offlinesatch1234
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: DubiousNotation]
    #22002586 - 07/27/15 01:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Its not like on our way to mars in a rocket some undetectable, invisible force/entity appears and devours us. There is definetly some progress to be made in understanding, unifying the mechanics of everything but the current models do a damn good job.

Biochemistry has more unknowns I'd say, I mean we haven't even cracked Photosystem II! We can't even get a clean source of hydrogen, well plants do this everyday.


Edited by satch1234 (07/27/15 02:19 AM)


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: DubiousNotation]
    #22002611 - 07/27/15 01:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DubiousNotation said:
Quote:

EggTimer Said:
Well physics doesn't show how everything works, it only works for larger systems.
Quantum physics deals with all the small stuff that everything is made of and it doesn't seem to behave in much logical sense.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's not logical in some way though. It means we don't understand it fully yet or it could be nonlogical or random.
We still don't have any definitive theories for a joining of the small and the large.
String thoery is about the only one I've heard.




Quantum physics is logical within itself but as you have said, "joining of the small and the large" has proved itself a most challenging feat. Regardless, I believe what you are talking about is more molecular than metaphysical. My point is for someone to believe something that is contrary to what is known would be a logical fallacy. If what you believe cannot be traced to any logical point of data(what is known), as circular as it sounds, I implore you to use data, both physical and perceptual to formulate your own ideals. I do personally find the concept of alternate reality to be plausible. But I don't believe enough data has been gathered to say it exists with even the most infinitesimal amount of weight. To clarify, I am by no means giving an argumentum ad ignorantiam.




gram =
µg(microgram)
_______

1000000

What is it about the molecular things cause love and emotion to be experienced? What is it about these things that makes you. Everything that you are could theoretically be reduced to chemicals(molecules) (couldn't they be considered to be natural to the universe?) and electricity.
Why is it that 125micrograms of a molecule(how many individual molecules are in 125 micrograms of LSD?) know as LSD can change someones way of consciously looking at things until they die? This is all just molecules right? Just because it's molecules doesn't mean it's a "dumb mechanical"  event.

element - a basic substance that can't be simplified (hydrogen, oxygen, gold, etc...)

atom - the smallest amount of an element

molecule - two or more atoms that are chemically joined together (H2, O2, H2O, etc...)

compound - a molecule that contains more than one element (H2O, C6H12O6, etc...)

Edit:
Shouldn't intelligence still work even on non molecular system such as digital ones?
Here's some cool stuff about the maping of the internet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Mapping_Project



Edited by Eggtimer (07/27/15 02:00 AM)


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: satch1234] * 1
    #22002672 - 07/27/15 02:11 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

satch1234 said:
Peoples personality change dramatically after head trauma, drug abuse e.t.c I've seen it. I'd say that is evidence of the pointing towards the brain, infact all evidence points that way..

If you were to damage the thalamus your conscious experience would be completely different, or you may go unconscious from physical lesion.




This was the final nail in my belief of some kind of 'journey of the soul'. The belief that we repeatedly incarnate one earth to become more 'pure', 'advanced' etc. How does such a belief system gel with the fact that site specific brain damage can change the most saintly, compassionate person into a grasping deviant. It's sad to read the studies of such people who now can barely control their impulses in socially acceptable ways.

There does seem to be the common belief that because science can't explain everything (yet), anything is possible. If the brain, which is matter, can connect to these 'higher realms' / 'other dimensions' - for the experience to be remembered, there must be a physical action on the brain. So whatever 'energy' creates these experiences, would have a physical effect and so would be physically detectable. To date, no such energies have been detected in any way, shape or form - even after decades of testing and experimentation.

If there is more to reality than base matter and energy, I think most 'seekers' are blinding themselves with old spiritual ideas and systems which were formulated by the minds of men, at points where even lightning was an unknown and considered supernatural. If we ever want to make progress, we need to forge a new paradigm based upon the scientific method, and throw off the cosy, feel good belief systems. Take what works, discard the rest.


Edited by misterjingo (07/27/15 02:18 AM)


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: misterjingo]
    #22002707 - 07/27/15 02:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:whathesaid:

BTW, I love when people rattle off about quantum mechanics like they know what the hell they are talking about.


--------------------
I'm done trying to be "right." I want the exchange of ideas to be the currency of my economy. If you have something I can use, great. I'll try it out. If you think my methods are shit, great. Don't use it. We all want yields.



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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22002714 - 07/27/15 02:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Here's a fine question. All these entities/spirits/mogwai seem to constantly have altruistic goals; they want to help you by giving you a 'message'

How come that message isn't ever mathematics?

"Since you are here we want to teach you the deeper meaning of the universe. Now, we can either give you some information on how our species maintains an ability to communicate extra-dimensionally, OR we can tell you to love everyone and give peace a chance =D "


--------------------
I'm done trying to be "right." I want the exchange of ideas to be the currency of my economy. If you have something I can use, great. I'll try it out. If you think my methods are shit, great. Don't use it. We all want yields.



Edited by ZeroBoyWD (07/27/15 02:35 AM)


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22002731 - 07/27/15 02:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Quote:

DubiousNotation said:
Quote:

EggTimer Said:
Well physics doesn't show how everything works, it only works for larger systems.
Quantum physics deals with all the small stuff that everything is made of and it doesn't seem to behave in much logical sense.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's not logical in some way though. It means we don't understand it fully yet or it could be nonlogical or random.
We still don't have any definitive theories for a joining of the small and the large.
String thoery is about the only one I've heard.




Quantum physics is logical within itself but as you have said, "joining of the small and the large" has proved itself a most challenging feat. Regardless, I believe what you are talking about is more molecular than metaphysical. My point is for someone to believe something that is contrary to what is known would be a logical fallacy. If what you believe cannot be traced to any logical point of data(what is known), as circular as it sounds, I implore you to use data, both physical and perceptual to formulate your own ideals. I do personally find the concept of alternate reality to be plausible. But I don't believe enough data has been gathered to say it exists with even the most infinitesimal amount of weight. To clarify, I am by no means giving an argumentum ad ignorantiam.




gram =
µg(microgram)
_______

1000000

What is it about the molecular things cause love and emotion to be experienced? What is it about these things that makes you. Everything that you are could theoretically be reduced to chemicals(molecules) (couldn't they be considered to be natural to the universe?) and electricity.
Why is it that 125micrograms of a molecule(how many individual molecules are in 125 micrograms of LSD?) know as LSD can change someones way of consciously looking at things until they die? This is all just molecules right? Just because it's molecules doesn't mean it's a "dumb mechanical"  event.

element - a basic substance that can't be simplified (hydrogen, oxygen, gold, etc...)

atom - the smallest amount of an element

molecule - two or more atoms that are chemically joined together (H2, O2, H2O, etc...)

compound - a molecule that contains more than one element (H2O, C6H12O6, etc...)

Edit:
Shouldn't intelligence still work even on non molecular system such as digital ones?
Here's some cool stuff about the maping of the internet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Mapping_Project






Neurochemistry has a lot of this stuff worked out, these molecules absolutely modulate our emotions this has been shown extensively, it is not a reduction to qualify life as chemicals, everything you have ever experienced and remember is an amazing brilliant chemical interaction. There are 1.8066424e+18 atoms in 125 micrograms of lsd. How can lsd change someones perspective forever? How can a trip to an observatory change someone forever? How can seeing someone die change someone forever? It is really the same mechanism..


Edited by satch1234 (07/27/15 02:42 AM)


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: satch1234]
    #22002742 - 07/27/15 02:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think anyone is arguing that they / we / everything are dumb molecules. Just look at cellular automata, very basic rules giving rise to seemingly complex emergent behavior. We are infinitely more complicated, with only a rudimentary grasp of our most basic mechanics.

Just because we haven't fully formed conclusive theories of why an emotion we've labeled 'Love' is generated, or experienced, doesn't automatically back up philosophies of 'Love' being a universal energy which pervades everything. We're at a point now where we can actually watch memories being formed on a molecular level in real time. Given time, we will have a lot more answers to these questions. Whether those answers will be palatable is another matter.


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: satch1234]
    #22003485 - 07/27/15 09:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Satch1234 said:
Quote:

Neurochemistry has a lot of this stuff worked out, these molecules absolutely modulate our emotions this has been shown extensively, it is not a reduction to qualify life as chemicals, everything you have ever experienced and remember is an amazing brilliant chemical interaction. There are 1.8066424e+18 atoms in 125 micrograms of lsd. How can lsd change someones perspective forever? How can a trip to an observatory change someone forever? How can seeing someone die change someone forever? It is really the same mechanism..



That seems very much like a reduction to me. You could say life is no more than an interaction with chemicals, but you could never use chemicals to fully represent human complexity. Its like trying to read a book by studying its atoms. You can understand the physical properties of the book and how it functions as a book, but to understand the concepts contained in the book with an electron microscope would be a farce. Philosophy has greater capacity to understand why someone does something than a microscope. Also, I don't think anyone claimed ingestion of chemicals cant change your perception for the remainder of your life. I believe the original argument was whether a chemical could "take" you to a place outside of the natural world.


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #22003545 - 07/27/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

Matt87 said:
Finally! Someone who enjoys psychedelics without spouting hippy bullshit!





Being aware of extre-dimensional perception has nothing to do with hippies, bullshit, or "hippy bullshit".





...:bigyesnod:
Go Bill Go!

.....OP...
You know I would be here 4 this....glad to inspire the post!.....good stuff!


--------------------
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22003553 - 07/27/15 09:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
Ok, so I don't believe there is any drug you can take that will make you connect to any extra-dimensional state/plain/entity/hoodoo. The is no chemical reaction that can make your brain tap into external forces. Psychedelics aren't about reaching out, they are about looking in. Any manifestation that is experienced during the trip is 100% a product of your brain. No spirits, no angels, no secret dimensions.

Your brain is an awesome machine. Every moment there is a torrential flood of information bombarding your brain, nonstop. Its very taxing work. So your brain has adapted to filter out all kinds of information. Two big portions of these filters are your subconscious and unconscious mind.
So when you start to come up, the filters start going away. So things like visual filters start going away, you get that whole, deep-focus and increased saturation. Music gets better, like you're hearing the signal uninterrupted. So you dose a little higher.

Next filters that start to slip are the ones of the subconscious. This is what helps you feel more emphatic toward others. Your subconscious harnesses all of your recall. Things you don't think about but can readily access when you focus on something. Without the filter, your subconscious starts reacting on a more primal level, an emotional one. A little higher and your subconscious starts reacting to things that just casually pass through your brain. This is where you can become sensitive to suggestion.

Go for those superhero doses, you break down the filters to the unconscious mind. This is where shit starts getting really nutty. Inexplicable shit, dissociation with reality, speaking with "entities." All of it is coming from inside yourself. You just keep going deeper and deeper into things that make less and less sense to you conscious mind.

Just armchair bullshitting



I'm not saying anything is guaranteed just think about the possibilities. Also if you haven't read or listened to any of Aldous Huxley on youtube really great to check out.


If the universe emulates it's self on every level then things you experience might be a reflection of smaller and bigger realities.


Reality is relative at all levels.
Just 1K miles up humans don't appear to exist any more. Just like you can't see all the things living on you.
I think this data is old but there's still a lot of shit living on you that's not you.
New estimates are only like 37trillion cells.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-humans-carry-more-bacterial-cells-than-human-ones/
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/23/science/37-2-trillion-galaxies-or-human-cells.html






....lmfao!....exactly. ....:awethumb:


--------------------
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...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post:canthelpbutlaugh:


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Starless]
    #22003563 - 07/27/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Starless said:
I have to side with OP here, there is no real evidence of psychedelics being anything other than internal experiences. That is not to demean them, though. Due to the fractal nature of reality, it's possible for one to draw conclusions about the outside world from understanding one's own mind, but not while bullshitting yourself. If altering the mind couldn't produce convincing changes in reality, then psychedelics wouldn't work in the first place. The human mind is an amazing but extremely fallible machine, eyewitness testimony has proven to be very unreliable in court, and that's without drugs being a factor. Psychedelics are all about questioning preconceived notions, so I think some of you need to think about whether you actually have sound reasoning for your beliefs.




Sound reasoning?..... this isn't chemistry 101! This is the psychedelic experience! I think it's extremely egotistical to think in any way that we got things figured out! It's very clear to me that human understanding is on a relatively low level! There's so many more things that we don't understand then what we do understand! And we understand so much more now than we did a couple hundred years ago! Things that used to seeing fantastical are now everyday! That's a line of reasoning that won't let you down! The fact that we don't know s***!:mindexpanding:


--------------------
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22003616 - 07/27/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
Does it though? The old "The universe is an atom in a much larger entity" trope is a fun one to think about, until you remember that electrons operate in a field. Not to mention that we have yet to find two identical solar systems anywhere in what we've looked for. And why are the orbiting bodies not identical as electrons are? What constitutes the nucleus on a larger scale? The sun?





There are as many as 200 billion galaxies each with the possibility of 100's of billions of solar systems. How many solar system have we found so far?
500
Yeah 500 is a good sample size out of the 100 billion in our galaxy alone.
http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-space/solar-systems-in-galaxy.html
http://education.jlab.org/qa/atomicstructure_10.html
Atoms are mostly empty space just like space.

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
A writer.... Yeah he probably has a good grip on the mechanics of the universe and organic chemistry.




Only the priests can talk to god. - Only the scientist can talk about the "nature of reality"

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
A philisophical argument as old as time. Relativity only takes you so far. Certainly reality is relative to the subject, but you have to fall into pragmatism to start making sense of the world. Or else why not just assume solipsism and presume you are the only real thing that exists?





"I stand on the shoulders of giants"
Because it's obvious I'm only a very small part of the program. Without the building blocks of other people throughout history and the billions of years of life evolving I would not be here right now.
It's all important. Nothing is greater than anything else.

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:

A mere 1000 miles straight into the air and suddenly you can't see people..... Due to the curvature of the planet, even on open sea you can't see things farther than 13 miles from 100ft in the air.
Non-sequitur.





What you left out is the fact you can't see all the life living on you. Which is more important you or the life living on you?
Without one the other would cease to be. You need microbes to help your body do stuff like break down food/digest and they need you to live in and on.





.....money^^^^:bigyesnod:


--------------------
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22003655 - 07/27/15 09:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
Yeah, I was depressed, kinda my point. Its like an amplifier for your emotions. I'm not currently depressed, in fact I've been more content with life than I have in years.

And I've never tried to mute anyone's side of the discussion, I just want what they can not provide: Tenable evidence.  Science is not over-exclusive, its just conclusive. We don't call claims scientific if they have no basis in verifiable data.

Why is it that when spirituality is come into question there is not an arguable defense of it? Instead you get a lot of criticisms of the scientific method, that its not complete. Scientific claims are based upon data, spiritual claims claim they can't be quantified. Its bunk, my man. You can believe whatever you like, but I personally reject the idea of believing something cause it sounds neat.




.....what about hypothetical science?.... what about the things that used to be considered magic and now that we understand them it's just everyday life! There's definitely some things that we will not come to understand for thousands of years still! I'm not jumping up and down how about some pseudo spirituality! I'm just stating the fact that we clearly don't have a great understanding of things! For me that's enough to still have questions about things! I'm a total atheist!....proof?....ever heard of the observer effect?....explain that shit playboy!:awethumb:


--------------------
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
    #22003666 - 07/27/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Eggtimer said:
Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
A philisophical argument as old as time. Relativity only takes you so far. Certainly reality is relative to the subject, but you have to fall into pragmatism to start making sense of the world. Or else why not just assume solipsism and presume you are the only real thing that exists?





Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
A writer.... Yeah he probably has a good grip on the mechanics of the universe and organic chemistry.






http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7686.html

Did you actually read any of his books or listen to him before so easily dismissing him?

Isn't this just how you feel?

I see living things and non living things making the same patterns. This is chaos theory, spontaneous order, and self organized criticality.
You might live in the twilight zone and never noticed because you were born in it.
Quote:

The laws of quantum mechanics and relativity are quite perplexing however it is when the two theories are merged that things get really confusing. This combined theory predicts that empty space isn’t empty at all – it’s a seething and bubbling cauldron of matter and antimatter particles springing into existence before disappearing back into nothingness. Scientists call this complicated state of affairs “quantum foam.” In this video, Fermilab’s Dr. Don Lincoln discusses this mind-bending idea and sketches some of the experiments that have convinced scientists that this crazy prediction is actually true



Foam structures appear all over.
:tripmolecule:
















    That's what's up!^^^^:awethumb:


--------------------
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Filterhead462]
    #22003672 - 07/27/15 10:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Josh-v said:
Believe what ever you choose to believe as long as you're not shitting on someone else's beliefs
Because at the end of the day nobody and I mean nobody knows exactly what is going on right now.
Everything could be wrong but it could be right.
I myself believe that mushrooms are something seriously special to life as a whole, special in a way that I could never comprehend. That have insight into life itself and death
Extra-dimesions may sound far fetched but can you prove that they don't exist,
Can you prove they DMT doesn't actually take you somewhere.
We are all still children exploring our playpen, try telling a child about the universe, they don't have the mental capacity to understand or even believe at that point
Maybe that's what it's like for us, we are not yet far evolved enough to even comprehend that there could be something going on





.....fuck yeah!:bigyesnod:


--------------------
....."So Great!"....-Me on 1.5mg LSD :vibin:

...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post:canthelpbutlaugh:


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: voodoochild1000]
    #22003693 - 07/27/15 10:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Great posts eggtimer!

OP.  The brain is all chemical interactions.  It's a chemical processor.  Different chemicals affect how information is processed.  Our eyes, ears, skin, tongue, these are all inputs.

If I take a huge dose of Ayahuasca and start talking to dead relatives am I only communicating with my memory of them?  When I talk to my dad on the phone am I not communicating at least partially with my memory of him?  Is the difference so large?

My point is that the subconscious or whatever you want to call it is a reflection of the outside.  The entities we speak to are real because our subconscious is real.

And shit, another thought that goes along with eggtimer's posts, maybe when we get really high we become connected to our own microenvironments.  Maybe the dmt elves are really the cells in my body.  The cells in my brain.  Those little bits of 'me' that literally make up 'my whole universe'.

Anyway it's all love man.  And I hardly find that to limit my potential.  But if you need to give up 'spirituality' in order to find yourself do it!  Preconceived notions about anything do limit potential.  Just be aware that my definition of spirituality may be vastly different than your own.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: misterjingo]
    #22003761 - 07/27/15 10:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

misterjingo said:
Quote:

satch1234 said:
Peoples personality change dramatically after head trauma, drug abuse e.t.c I've seen it. I'd say that is evidence of the pointing towards the brain, infact all evidence points that way..

If you were to damage the thalamus your conscious experience would be completely different, or you may go unconscious from physical lesion.




This was the final nail in my belief of some kind of 'journey of the soul'. The belief that we repeatedly incarnate one earth to become more 'pure', 'advanced' etc. How does such a belief system gel with the fact that site specific brain damage can change the most saintly, compassionate person into a grasping deviant. It's sad to read the studies of such people who now can barely control their impulses in socially acceptable ways.

There does seem to be the common belief that because science can't explain everything (yet), anything is possible. If the brain, which is matter, can connect to these 'higher realms' / 'other dimensions' - for the experience to be remembered, there must be a physical action on the brain. So whatever 'energy' creates these experiences, would have a physical effect and so would be physically detectable. To date, no such energies have been detected in any way, shape or form - even after decades of testing and experimentation.

If there is more to reality than base matter and energy, I think most 'seekers' are blinding themselves with old spiritual ideas and systems which were formulated by the minds of men, at points where even lightning was an unknown and considered supernatural. If we ever want to make progress, we need to forge a new paradigm based upon the scientific method, and throw off the cosy, feel good belief systems. Take what works, discard the rest.




....let's start testing!...so much to understand!....Science is less than perfect. ..
and scientists can b ego driven as well!!


--------------------
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...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post:canthelpbutlaugh:


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: voodoochild1000]
    #22003769 - 07/27/15 10:21 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Things don't need to be taken so literally either.  The idea of reincarnation and karma could be looked at generationally.

The idea of an eternal individual soul is more of a Western thing anyway.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22003777 - 07/27/15 10:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Great posts eggtimer!

OP.  The brain is all chemical interactions.  It's a chemical processor.  Different chemicals affect how information is processed.  Our eyes, ears, skin, tongue, these are all inputs.

If I take a huge dose of Ayahuasca and start talking to dead relatives am I only communicating with my memory of them?  When I talk to my dad on the phone am I not communicating at least partially with my memory of him?  Is the difference so large?

My point is that the subconscious or whatever you want to call it is a reflection of the outside.  The entities we speak to are real because our subconscious is real.

And shit, another thought that goes along with eggtimer's posts, maybe when we get really high we become connected to our own microenvironments.  Maybe the dmt elves are really the cells in my body.  The cells in my brain.  Those little bits of 'me' that literally make up 'my whole universe'.

Anyway it's all love man.  And I hardly find that to limit my potential.  But if you need to give up 'spirituality' in order to find yourself do it!  Preconceived notions about anything do limit potential.  Just be aware that my definition of spirituality may be vastly different than your own.





.....nice!:awethumb:


--------------------
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...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post:canthelpbutlaugh:


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: voodoochild1000]
    #22003785 - 07/27/15 10:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

C'mon


....Rick Strassman

...."Inner paths to outer worlds"!

      Challenge his PHD knowledge!

....he knows wayyy more than me!:wonka:


--------------------
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...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post:canthelpbutlaugh:


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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #22003796 - 07/27/15 10:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZeroBoyWD said:
:whathesaid:

BTW, I love when people rattle off about quantum mechanics like they know what the hell they are talking about.




You asked for evidence that the universe may be emulating on every level. Quantum foam
is some possible explanation of what is at the smallest scales of the universe(planck lengths).

Yes because we all know no one can ever understand quantum mechanics even the people that are getting paid too.:rofldrunk:
The Copenhagen Interpretation was made when quantum mechanics were not doing the things people expected.

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec15.html
This is from wiki because it explain things easier but here's a link to a better site.
Quote:

The nature of the Copenhagen Interpretation is exposed by considering a number of experiments and paradoxes.

1. Schrödinger's Cat

    This thought experiment highlights the implications that accepting uncertainty at the microscopic level has on macroscopic objects. A cat is put in a sealed box, with its life or death made dependent on the state of a subatomic particle. Thus a description of the cat during the course of the experiment—having been entangled with the state of a subatomic particle—becomes a "blur" of "living and dead cat." But this can't be accurate because it implies the cat is actually both dead and alive until the box is opened to check on it. But the cat, if it survives, will only remember being alive. Schrödinger resists "so naively accepting as valid a 'blurred model' for representing reality."[41] How can the cat be both alive and dead?

    The Copenhagen Interpretation: The wave function reflects our knowledge of the system. The wave function (|\text{dead}\rangle + |\text{alive}\rangle)/\sqrt 2 means that, once the cat is observed, there is a 50% chance it will be dead, and 50% chance it will be alive.

2. Wigner's Friend

    Wigner puts his friend in with the cat. The external observer believes the system is in the state (|\text{dead}\rangle + |\text{alive}\rangle)/\sqrt 2. His friend, however, is convinced that the cat is alive, i.e. for him, the cat is in the state |\text{alive}\rangle. How can Wigner and his friend see different wave functions?

    The Copenhagen Interpretation: The answer depends on the positioning of Heisenberg cut, which can be placed arbitrarily. If Wigner's friend is positioned on the same side of the cut as the external observer, his measurements collapse the wave function for both observers. If he is positioned on the cat's side, his interaction with the cat is not considered a measurement.

3. Double-slit diffraction

    Light passes through double slits and onto a screen resulting in a diffraction pattern. Is light a particle or a wave?

    The Copenhagen Interpretation: Light is neither. A particular experiment can demonstrate particle (photon) or wave properties, but not both at the same time (Bohr's Complementarity Principle).

    The same experiment can in theory be performed with any physical system: electrons, protons, atoms, molecules, viruses, bacteria, cats, humans, elephants, planets, etc. In practice it has been performed for light, electrons, buckminsterfullerene,[42][43] and some atoms. Due to the smallness of Planck's constant it is practically impossible to realize experiments that directly reveal the wave nature of any system bigger than a few atoms but, in general, quantum mechanics considers all matter as possessing both particle and wave behaviors. The greater systems (like viruses, bacteria, cats, etc.) are considered as "classical" ones but only as an approximation, not exact.

4. EPR (Einstein–Podolsky–Rosen) paradox

    Entangled "particles" are emitted in a single event. Conservation laws ensure that the measured spin of one particle must be the opposite of the measured spin of the other, so that if the spin of one particle is measured, the spin of the other particle is now instantaneously known. The most discomforting aspect of this paradox is that the effect is instantaneous so that something that happens in one galaxy could cause an instantaneous change in another galaxy. But, according to Einstein's theory of special relativity, no information-bearing signal or entity can travel at or faster than the speed of light, which is finite. Thus, it seems as if the Copenhagen interpretation is inconsistent with special relativity.

    The Copenhagen Interpretation: Assuming wave functions are not real, wave-function collapse is interpreted subjectively. The moment one observer measures the spin of one particle, he knows the spin of the other. However, another observer cannot benefit until the results of that measurement have been relayed to him, at less than or equal to the speed of light.

    Copenhagenists claim that interpretations of quantum mechanics where the wave function is regarded as real have problems with EPR-type effects, since they imply that the laws of physics allow for influences to propagate at speeds greater than the speed of light. However, proponents of many worlds[44] and the transactional interpretation[45][46] (TI) maintain that Copenhagen interpretation is fatally non-local.

    The claim that EPR effects violate the principle that information cannot travel faster than the speed of light have been countered by noting that they cannot be used for signaling because neither observer can control, or predetermine, what he observes, and therefore cannot manipulate what the other observer measures. However, this is a somewhat spurious argument, in that the speed of light limitation applies to all information, not to what can or cannot be subsequently done with the information. On the other hand, the special theory of relativity contains no notion of information at all. The fact that no classical body can exceed the speed of light (no matter how much acceleration is applied) is a consequence of classical relativistic mechanics. As the correlation between the two particles in an EPR experiment is most probably not established by classical bodies or light signals, the displayed non-locality is not at odds with special relativity.[citation needed]

    A further argument against Copenhagen interpretation is that relativistic difficulties about establishing which measurement occurred first or last, or whether they occurred quite at the same time, also undermine the idea that in "different" instants and measurements different outcomes can occur. The spin would be kept as a "constant" for a continuous interval of time, i.e. as a real variable, and thus it would seem to violate the general rule (of the classic Copenhagen interpretation) that every measurement gives nothing else than a random outcome subject to certain probabilities.[citation needed]




Edit:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Things don't need to be taken so literally either.  The idea of reincarnation and karma could be looked at generationally.

The idea of an eternal individual soul is more of a Western thing anyway.




After psychedelics I started to think in an "eastern way" never really having been exposed to this type of thinking because I figured it was bullshit too.
The book of chuang tzu is very interesting. When they use the word heaven in that book they usually refer to space and all that is above you. Not a magical place you go after you die.

Yeah this is pretty amazing. Before psychedelics I took this stuff literally which is why I never looked into it.
To die is to go to sleep and never wake up, to be alive is to wake up having never gone to sleep. :aweyeah:


Edited by Eggtimer (07/27/15 11:25 AM)


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