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voodoochild1000
psychonautic



Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2,531
Loc: Cascades!
Last seen: 8 months, 15 days
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
#22003616 - 07/27/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Eggtimer said:
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ZeroBoyWD said: Does it though? The old "The universe is an atom in a much larger entity" trope is a fun one to think about, until you remember that electrons operate in a field. Not to mention that we have yet to find two identical solar systems anywhere in what we've looked for. And why are the orbiting bodies not identical as electrons are? What constitutes the nucleus on a larger scale? The sun?
There are as many as 200 billion galaxies each with the possibility of 100's of billions of solar systems. How many solar system have we found so far? 500 Yeah 500 is a good sample size out of the 100 billion in our galaxy alone. http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-space/solar-systems-in-galaxy.html http://education.jlab.org/qa/atomicstructure_10.html Atoms are mostly empty space just like space.
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ZeroBoyWD said: A writer.... Yeah he probably has a good grip on the mechanics of the universe and organic chemistry.
Only the priests can talk to god. - Only the scientist can talk about the "nature of reality"
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ZeroBoyWD said: A philisophical argument as old as time. Relativity only takes you so far. Certainly reality is relative to the subject, but you have to fall into pragmatism to start making sense of the world. Or else why not just assume solipsism and presume you are the only real thing that exists?
"I stand on the shoulders of giants" Because it's obvious I'm only a very small part of the program. Without the building blocks of other people throughout history and the billions of years of life evolving I would not be here right now. It's all important. Nothing is greater than anything else.
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ZeroBoyWD said:
A mere 1000 miles straight into the air and suddenly you can't see people..... Due to the curvature of the planet, even on open sea you can't see things farther than 13 miles from 100ft in the air. Non-sequitur.
What you left out is the fact you can't see all the life living on you. Which is more important you or the life living on you? Without one the other would cease to be. You need microbes to help your body do stuff like break down food/digest and they need you to live in and on.
.....money^^^^
-------------------- ....."So Great!"....-Me on 1.5mg LSD ...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post
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voodoochild1000
psychonautic



Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2,531
Loc: Cascades!
Last seen: 8 months, 15 days
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
#22003655 - 07/27/15 09:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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ZeroBoyWD said: Yeah, I was depressed, kinda my point. Its like an amplifier for your emotions. I'm not currently depressed, in fact I've been more content with life than I have in years.
And I've never tried to mute anyone's side of the discussion, I just want what they can not provide: Tenable evidence. Science is not over-exclusive, its just conclusive. We don't call claims scientific if they have no basis in verifiable data.
Why is it that when spirituality is come into question there is not an arguable defense of it? Instead you get a lot of criticisms of the scientific method, that its not complete. Scientific claims are based upon data, spiritual claims claim they can't be quantified. Its bunk, my man. You can believe whatever you like, but I personally reject the idea of believing something cause it sounds neat.
.....what about hypothetical science?.... what about the things that used to be considered magic and now that we understand them it's just everyday life! There's definitely some things that we will not come to understand for thousands of years still! I'm not jumping up and down how about some pseudo spirituality! I'm just stating the fact that we clearly don't have a great understanding of things! For me that's enough to still have questions about things! I'm a total atheist!....proof?....ever heard of the observer effect?....explain that shit playboy!
-------------------- ....."So Great!"....-Me on 1.5mg LSD ...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post
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voodoochild1000
psychonautic



Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2,531
Loc: Cascades!
Last seen: 8 months, 15 days
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: Eggtimer]
#22003666 - 07/27/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- ....."So Great!"....-Me on 1.5mg LSD ...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post
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voodoochild1000
psychonautic



Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2,531
Loc: Cascades!
Last seen: 8 months, 15 days
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Josh-v said: Believe what ever you choose to believe as long as you're not shitting on someone else's beliefs Because at the end of the day nobody and I mean nobody knows exactly what is going on right now. Everything could be wrong but it could be right. I myself believe that mushrooms are something seriously special to life as a whole, special in a way that I could never comprehend. That have insight into life itself and death Extra-dimesions may sound far fetched but can you prove that they don't exist, Can you prove they DMT doesn't actually take you somewhere. We are all still children exploring our playpen, try telling a child about the universe, they don't have the mental capacity to understand or even believe at that point Maybe that's what it's like for us, we are not yet far evolved enough to even comprehend that there could be something going on
.....fuck yeah!
-------------------- ....."So Great!"....-Me on 1.5mg LSD ...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Great posts eggtimer!
OP. The brain is all chemical interactions. It's a chemical processor. Different chemicals affect how information is processed. Our eyes, ears, skin, tongue, these are all inputs.
If I take a huge dose of Ayahuasca and start talking to dead relatives am I only communicating with my memory of them? When I talk to my dad on the phone am I not communicating at least partially with my memory of him? Is the difference so large?
My point is that the subconscious or whatever you want to call it is a reflection of the outside. The entities we speak to are real because our subconscious is real.
And shit, another thought that goes along with eggtimer's posts, maybe when we get really high we become connected to our own microenvironments. Maybe the dmt elves are really the cells in my body. The cells in my brain. Those little bits of 'me' that literally make up 'my whole universe'.
Anyway it's all love man. And I hardly find that to limit my potential. But if you need to give up 'spirituality' in order to find yourself do it! Preconceived notions about anything do limit potential. Just be aware that my definition of spirituality may be vastly different than your own.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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voodoochild1000
psychonautic



Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2,531
Loc: Cascades!
Last seen: 8 months, 15 days
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: misterjingo]
#22003761 - 07/27/15 10:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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misterjingo said:
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satch1234 said: Peoples personality change dramatically after head trauma, drug abuse e.t.c I've seen it. I'd say that is evidence of the pointing towards the brain, infact all evidence points that way..
If you were to damage the thalamus your conscious experience would be completely different, or you may go unconscious from physical lesion.
This was the final nail in my belief of some kind of 'journey of the soul'. The belief that we repeatedly incarnate one earth to become more 'pure', 'advanced' etc. How does such a belief system gel with the fact that site specific brain damage can change the most saintly, compassionate person into a grasping deviant. It's sad to read the studies of such people who now can barely control their impulses in socially acceptable ways.
There does seem to be the common belief that because science can't explain everything (yet), anything is possible. If the brain, which is matter, can connect to these 'higher realms' / 'other dimensions' - for the experience to be remembered, there must be a physical action on the brain. So whatever 'energy' creates these experiences, would have a physical effect and so would be physically detectable. To date, no such energies have been detected in any way, shape or form - even after decades of testing and experimentation.
If there is more to reality than base matter and energy, I think most 'seekers' are blinding themselves with old spiritual ideas and systems which were formulated by the minds of men, at points where even lightning was an unknown and considered supernatural. If we ever want to make progress, we need to forge a new paradigm based upon the scientific method, and throw off the cosy, feel good belief systems. Take what works, discard the rest.
....let's start testing!...so much to understand!....Science is less than perfect. .. and scientists can b ego driven as well!!
-------------------- ....."So Great!"....-Me on 1.5mg LSD ...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Things don't need to be taken so literally either. The idea of reincarnation and karma could be looked at generationally.
The idea of an eternal individual soul is more of a Western thing anyway.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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voodoochild1000
psychonautic



Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2,531
Loc: Cascades!
Last seen: 8 months, 15 days
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paperbackwriter said: Great posts eggtimer!
OP. The brain is all chemical interactions. It's a chemical processor. Different chemicals affect how information is processed. Our eyes, ears, skin, tongue, these are all inputs.
If I take a huge dose of Ayahuasca and start talking to dead relatives am I only communicating with my memory of them? When I talk to my dad on the phone am I not communicating at least partially with my memory of him? Is the difference so large?
My point is that the subconscious or whatever you want to call it is a reflection of the outside. The entities we speak to are real because our subconscious is real.
And shit, another thought that goes along with eggtimer's posts, maybe when we get really high we become connected to our own microenvironments. Maybe the dmt elves are really the cells in my body. The cells in my brain. Those little bits of 'me' that literally make up 'my whole universe'.
Anyway it's all love man. And I hardly find that to limit my potential. But if you need to give up 'spirituality' in order to find yourself do it! Preconceived notions about anything do limit potential. Just be aware that my definition of spirituality may be vastly different than your own.
.....nice!
-------------------- ....."So Great!"....-Me on 1.5mg LSD ...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post
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voodoochild1000
psychonautic



Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2,531
Loc: Cascades!
Last seen: 8 months, 15 days
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C'mon
....Rick Strassman
...."Inner paths to outer worlds"!
Challenge his PHD knowledge!
....he knows wayyy more than me!
-------------------- ....."So Great!"....-Me on 1.5mg LSD ...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour
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Re: Spirituality limits potential [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
#22003796 - 07/27/15 10:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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ZeroBoyWD said:
BTW, I love when people rattle off about quantum mechanics like they know what the hell they are talking about.
You asked for evidence that the universe may be emulating on every level. Quantum foam is some possible explanation of what is at the smallest scales of the universe(planck lengths).
Yes because we all know no one can ever understand quantum mechanics even the people that are getting paid too. The Copenhagen Interpretation was made when quantum mechanics were not doing the things people expected.
http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec15.html This is from wiki because it explain things easier but here's a link to a better site.
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The nature of the Copenhagen Interpretation is exposed by considering a number of experiments and paradoxes.
1. Schrödinger's Cat
This thought experiment highlights the implications that accepting uncertainty at the microscopic level has on macroscopic objects. A cat is put in a sealed box, with its life or death made dependent on the state of a subatomic particle. Thus a description of the cat during the course of the experiment—having been entangled with the state of a subatomic particle—becomes a "blur" of "living and dead cat." But this can't be accurate because it implies the cat is actually both dead and alive until the box is opened to check on it. But the cat, if it survives, will only remember being alive. Schrödinger resists "so naively accepting as valid a 'blurred model' for representing reality."[41] How can the cat be both alive and dead?
The Copenhagen Interpretation: The wave function reflects our knowledge of the system. The wave function (|\text{dead}\rangle + |\text{alive}\rangle)/\sqrt 2 means that, once the cat is observed, there is a 50% chance it will be dead, and 50% chance it will be alive.
2. Wigner's Friend
Wigner puts his friend in with the cat. The external observer believes the system is in the state (|\text{dead}\rangle + |\text{alive}\rangle)/\sqrt 2. His friend, however, is convinced that the cat is alive, i.e. for him, the cat is in the state |\text{alive}\rangle. How can Wigner and his friend see different wave functions?
The Copenhagen Interpretation: The answer depends on the positioning of Heisenberg cut, which can be placed arbitrarily. If Wigner's friend is positioned on the same side of the cut as the external observer, his measurements collapse the wave function for both observers. If he is positioned on the cat's side, his interaction with the cat is not considered a measurement.
3. Double-slit diffraction
Light passes through double slits and onto a screen resulting in a diffraction pattern. Is light a particle or a wave?
The Copenhagen Interpretation: Light is neither. A particular experiment can demonstrate particle (photon) or wave properties, but not both at the same time (Bohr's Complementarity Principle).
The same experiment can in theory be performed with any physical system: electrons, protons, atoms, molecules, viruses, bacteria, cats, humans, elephants, planets, etc. In practice it has been performed for light, electrons, buckminsterfullerene,[42][43] and some atoms. Due to the smallness of Planck's constant it is practically impossible to realize experiments that directly reveal the wave nature of any system bigger than a few atoms but, in general, quantum mechanics considers all matter as possessing both particle and wave behaviors. The greater systems (like viruses, bacteria, cats, etc.) are considered as "classical" ones but only as an approximation, not exact.
4. EPR (Einstein–Podolsky–Rosen) paradox
Entangled "particles" are emitted in a single event. Conservation laws ensure that the measured spin of one particle must be the opposite of the measured spin of the other, so that if the spin of one particle is measured, the spin of the other particle is now instantaneously known. The most discomforting aspect of this paradox is that the effect is instantaneous so that something that happens in one galaxy could cause an instantaneous change in another galaxy. But, according to Einstein's theory of special relativity, no information-bearing signal or entity can travel at or faster than the speed of light, which is finite. Thus, it seems as if the Copenhagen interpretation is inconsistent with special relativity.
The Copenhagen Interpretation: Assuming wave functions are not real, wave-function collapse is interpreted subjectively. The moment one observer measures the spin of one particle, he knows the spin of the other. However, another observer cannot benefit until the results of that measurement have been relayed to him, at less than or equal to the speed of light.
Copenhagenists claim that interpretations of quantum mechanics where the wave function is regarded as real have problems with EPR-type effects, since they imply that the laws of physics allow for influences to propagate at speeds greater than the speed of light. However, proponents of many worlds[44] and the transactional interpretation[45][46] (TI) maintain that Copenhagen interpretation is fatally non-local.
The claim that EPR effects violate the principle that information cannot travel faster than the speed of light have been countered by noting that they cannot be used for signaling because neither observer can control, or predetermine, what he observes, and therefore cannot manipulate what the other observer measures. However, this is a somewhat spurious argument, in that the speed of light limitation applies to all information, not to what can or cannot be subsequently done with the information. On the other hand, the special theory of relativity contains no notion of information at all. The fact that no classical body can exceed the speed of light (no matter how much acceleration is applied) is a consequence of classical relativistic mechanics. As the correlation between the two particles in an EPR experiment is most probably not established by classical bodies or light signals, the displayed non-locality is not at odds with special relativity.[citation needed]
A further argument against Copenhagen interpretation is that relativistic difficulties about establishing which measurement occurred first or last, or whether they occurred quite at the same time, also undermine the idea that in "different" instants and measurements different outcomes can occur. The spin would be kept as a "constant" for a continuous interval of time, i.e. as a real variable, and thus it would seem to violate the general rule (of the classic Copenhagen interpretation) that every measurement gives nothing else than a random outcome subject to certain probabilities.[citation needed]
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paperbackwriter said: Things don't need to be taken so literally either. The idea of reincarnation and karma could be looked at generationally.
The idea of an eternal individual soul is more of a Western thing anyway.
After psychedelics I started to think in an "eastern way" never really having been exposed to this type of thinking because I figured it was bullshit too. The book of chuang tzu is very interesting. When they use the word heaven in that book they usually refer to space and all that is above you. Not a magical place you go after you die.
Yeah this is pretty amazing. Before psychedelics I took this stuff literally which is why I never looked into it. To die is to go to sleep and never wake up, to be alive is to wake up having never gone to sleep.
Edited by Eggtimer (07/27/15 11:25 AM)
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