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Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 29 minutes, 49 seconds |
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Quote: The Fed can also buy all the T-bonds they want, currently the interest paid on the bonds owned by the Fed goes back to the Treasury, so in fact we already have a small percentage of the total debt that is interest free, who knows how much more US debt the Fed will buy down the road.
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: They can, but it's disruptive and must, of course, fit within their two part mandate. The real question is how is the FED going to get rid of all those bonds? What is the exit strategy. No one seems to know that. I think a gradually introduced alternative currency as Lincoln and Kennedy tried is the best answer. Slowly. Replace 10% a year over a 10 year time frame until we owe the Federal Reserve nothing then just phase it out. Appoint a non partisan board to oversea the treasury management of the money supply and get out of all these ginormous debt payments to the Federal Reserve. When Interest rates normalize, the US payment on the debt could go as high as 700 billion a year. That's game over for our economy. Done. Finished. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 29 minutes, 49 seconds |
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Quote: Exit strategy? What about the JOP, BOE, ECB, China and other central bankers? They could all cancel the debt after they load up their balance sheets, the fact the everybody is doing the same policy seems to balance things out. "When Interest rates normalize" It could be many decades before that happens, look at Japan, how many decades have they been at 0-1%? All developed economies have overcapacity and weak demand, that's not a scenario for inflation and higher interest rates. Globalization has changed the idea that higher rates have to come anytime soon.
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: Without some increase in interest rates how do you propose the Central Bank(s) will deal with the next recession as a result of the economic cycle? They'll have no ammo to deal with it. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Doctor Wolfe Registered: 02/21/15 Posts: 201 Last seen: 5 months, 12 days |
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Quote: How is communism "fair"? That is the most ludicrous idea I've heard in months. Well it's not. It's a ludicrous idea and leads to ludicrous outcomes. The idea that a government could ever hope to fulfil the needs of a modern developed society is plain silly. For example, can you imagine any bureaucrat deciding people need PlayStation's or a 100 different types of breakfast cereal! People want choice, variety and a lot of trivial things that no system of state control could deliver. It's competition to supply those wants that create progress and quality of life for the people. Because people want those things and Communism can't deliver them, Communist states always resort to repression and violence. Stupid idea that did not work, does not work and will never work. Communism like both fascism & the 'free' market are ideals - so they can not and will not work. Take a peak at the free market hypothesis it will never happen. Why should someone who works hard their whole life go to school, specialize and come out and work 9-9 everyday be paid even on the same level as Joe Shmo who has not lifted a finger and just smokes weed all day? Why should a neurosurgeon or a heart surgeon who studied everyday, had no real "childhood", made sacrafices you wouldn't dream of be paid even somewhat similarly to a cashier? Communism does not respect individual rights only collective rights. Communism does not consider morality in absolute terms. They see it in relative terms. That means instead of the traditional Biblical way of God being the final arbiter of right and wrong, they accept that there is no God and the State is the arbiter of right and wrong. That allows them to change the meaning in anyway that is convenient for the Government. If they choose to kill people that are old, infirm or otherwise deemd unproductive, they can decide that that is the moral thing to do. If they decide to take everything a farmer produces for the "common good" that is then the moral thing to do. In Communism the theory is that there is no private property and everyone owns everything. In reality, no one owns anything, not even their own bodies. Everything belongs to the State. Communism is not capable of generating wealth. It is basically a system of rationing existing wealth. There is no chance of improvement. Communism does not respect human life. Individuals are inferior to the "collective". In Communism there can be no free speech, free thought or free press. There can be no religion at all. Children do not belong to thier parents but are indoctrinated from birth to put the Collective above their own families and themselves. It is supposed to be a classless society but the reality is, again, way different. There are actually two classes: the ruling class and everyone else. Why not just buy a red rag, fix it round your throat, and concede you are happy to never have the right to freedom of speech, of association, language - read the writing of Mao, head bent, like a good communist and forgo the protest in the street with those "activist freedom seekers" They were shot dead Argument enough? Communism has never been voted in; it's always forced upon a population. To keep everyone under communist control 100 million people were killed in the past century (and that's people solely killed by their own government) just so communists could remain in power. There is no freedom in communism, only government control. There is no choice in communism. You must do exactly what the governments tells you to do when they tell you to do it. There are no good restaurants, no malls, monitored and censored on cell phones, monitored and censored on the internet, no 500 cable TV channels, no new cars, no new homes, and no stocked refrigerators under communism. Everyone is equally poor with no material things allowed Communism fails because it typically expends the investment capital so economic progress stops; and it discourages workers by not rewarding them according to their productivity -------------------- Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality. Edited by DottoreWolfe (08/10/15 11:09 PM)
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Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 29 minutes, 49 seconds |
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Quote: It's a great question, what will they do if the economy enters official recession/the stock markets tank? I think the first response will be more QE, but what will the buying of more US T-bonds or mortgage bonds really accomplish this time? The first thing to remember is these boys have more tricks up their sleeve than we can imagine, we know one thing for sure, they will protect themselves before worrying about the masses.
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Special Karma Registered: 08/11/13 Posts: 1,642 Loc: Hyperspace Last seen: 8 years, 2 months |
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I like good old fashioned anarchy not communism not socialism just straight up anarchy. Like if I want to sit on top of a hotel with a beer in one hand and a gun in the other thats fine. Or have an issue with somebody then kill them. Were fucking animals deep down so we should behave like it.
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Doctor Wolfe Registered: 02/21/15 Posts: 201 Last seen: 5 months, 12 days |
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Quote: Libertarianism is your solution, controlled anarchy, minimum government=Maximum freedom -------------------- Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.
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I Am 'They' Registered: 10/24/09 Posts: 21,590 Loc: Dallas with all Last seen: 7 months, 2 days |
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The problem is, when poltiicians realize they gain huge amounts of power by centralizing everthing, then both socialism and free market capitalism regress into a system called 'state capitalism' from wiki:
"state capitalism may be used (sometimes interchangeably with state monopoly capitalism) to describe a system where the state intervenes in the economy to protect and advance the interests of large-scale businesses. This practice is often claimed to be in contrast with the ideals of both socialism and laissez-faire capitalism.[4]" That is the situation Russia was in, and the situation the US is headed for. How many people who claim to be socialist are pushing for the state to control everything? BAD IDEA. Oh, and the 'Free Stuff' people get? that is just a bone thrown from the table of the elitists to keep the good little puppy dogs wagging their tales. as was once said,, "We are only 3 meals away from revolution...." state capitalism is the system, along with tyrannic dictatorship, that the constitution was designed to prevent. To bad people have become convinced we would benefit by destroying it. Face it, when shit hits the fan someday, all you fuckers are going end up riding into the countryside locked inside cattle cars. You'll see me only after they pry my gun from my cold dead fingers.
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Trumps Bone Spurs Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 13,337 Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes |
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Quote: We don't have anything close to Socialized healthcare. We have the most Capitalistic form of healthcare possible with any sort of government intervention. You Libertarians like to act as though economic and political institutions are not intertwined, or not meant to be, but they are, and always will be. Interestingly enough, that picture you posted sums up the negative impact of capitalism quite nicely. Capitalist countries are swallowing up the world, and they've been impoverishing Africa for what, a century now? Stealing their natural resources, and leaving them to starve. There are two different ways that Socialism arises. Firstly, it can arise via violent revolution, which usually places a dictator in power, as we've seen in Russia, China, and Cuba. This always ends terribly. Then there is the democratic route, which forms a Socialist party, and takes the government democratically, preserving the balance of power, and revolutionizing the country in a voluntary way. When we talk about democratic Socialism, we're talking about countries like Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, and France. Sure, they still have many Capitalist elements to them, but they have a strong Socialist backbone. Public college level education, high minimum wage, public healthcare, and of course Germany's genius worker councils, which mandate a form of unionization without corrupt union bosses. These countries are doing better than the US in many respects, and it is certainly noteworthy. What you have to understand is that nobody is advocating USSR style 'Socialism', and furthermore, our country is very far from Socialist. This is a lie that right wingers have been spreading for a while now. You can argue that Socialist principles are immoral, because you are not allowing people to become multi-billionaires and dominate the world, that's your right, and your obligation as a Libertarian. However, don't try to make the argument that Capitalism is the economic structure for the poor, because it is not. Clearly Socialism levels the wealth gap far better than Capitalism, that's not up for debate. If you think it is, then you don't understand economics very well. Interestingly enough, in the not-so-distant future we will have robots and machinery taking over more and more jobs, and at some point we will reach a post-work era, in which Socialism will be the only economic structure that could possibly work. -------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
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Doctor Wolfe Registered: 02/21/15 Posts: 201 Last seen: 5 months, 12 days |
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Quote: "When we talk about democratic Socialism, we're talking about countries like Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, and France." I love how you only use the countries that are exceptions to majorities of socialist countries. The dominant majority of socialist countries are in a terrible state of disarray, economically, politically and even morally. Venezuela, Greece, former USSR states (not Russia), many south east Asian countries, India, etc. There standards of living tend to be far lesser and their medicine and technological advancements lag similarly, if not more so. We can also see many examples wherein socialism leads to communism. Also with the increased taxes socialism in the US would require it would remove incentive for doing well. Businesses go to where the easiest taxes are and were they can earn money. This why very few big companies are in a communist and socialist countries. If you remove incentive for coming out with the new good product, then you will tend to fall behind. America was far ahead of canada in medical field (before ObamaCare), and they have socialist medical. Why would you spend 2 million dollars to test a drug when 60% of your income goes to the government, even more so when a few miles away, you only have to pay 30%. While it is a good idea, it fails due to human greed. Also, communism / socialism comes around when the middle class shifts into lower class, which is what is happening right now in America. When you have a bell shaped populace, where the majority of your people are middle class, no one complains and everyone is happy. When the middle class shifts into the poor section, they want a better life, and they can get that by voting it in. And while it will look good for the first few years, it ends up dooming a nation. So in short, it removes incentives for producing new products and bringing jobs into a country where there is a high tax, and high tax comes from socialism. Also, the government is horrible with money. Look at the 3 socialist things we have now. Social security, medicare, and welfare. Many people complain about how people take advantage of these programs and how they aren't doing what they are suppose to be doing. So why do you think the government will do any better? Also, when you give the government power, they have control. Lets take example if we nationalized the media industry (seeing as newspaper companies are going under). Now the government owns a media outlet and has approval on what can and can't be printed. look at communist (some would say "socialist") china vs capitalist china. They are both in china right now. Part of china are free capitalist while a lot of north china is still communist. The communist/socialist section while they are doing fine, the southern china is becoming a world power of business. -------------------- Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.
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Trumps Bone Spurs Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 13,337 Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes |
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Quote: I didn't realize that playstations and 100 types of breakfast cereal were needs. Maslow fucked up! Honestly, most of these 'needs' are manufactured by marketing in order to create a materialistic self-loathing society that fills every void in their life with shit they don't need, often at the expense of the planet, and future generations. Quote: Marxian Communism has never been realized. Lenon tried, but Stalin didn't continue his work. You should really read up on Marx and Engels. Very interesting stuff, if you care to hear the other side of your argument. If you don't, there's no real point in discussing any of it. However, I do not advocate Communism. The world isn't ready for that, and it wasn't back in USSR times either. Communism does not respect individual rights only collective rights. Quote: God, in the traditional sense of the term, is clearly a fictitious character. A character of a uniquely distasteful caliber, I might add. Luckily, we've moved beyond using your special books examples of morality to define policy. Quote: Communism isn't meant to have such a centralized power structure as we've seen in communist dictatorships. It is meant to be controlled by communities and workers. There are a lot of complicated ideas and understandings involved. Quote: Not true. Firstly, private property under communist theory doesn't refer to personal possessions. It refers to private ownership of the means of production (ie. Factories). Also, the government isn't meant to own the people under Communism. You're speaking of dictatorship. Quote: Communism has different aims than Capitalism. I would like to point out that Communist Russia made many scientific advancements. You can't act like they didn't do anything of value, because that is a lie. I should point out that I am not making the case the USSR style communism is any sort of standard we should aspire to, by the way. Quote: Capitalism will murder an entire nation to make a buck. Quote: This is a lie. You're referring to Fascism. It is supposed to be a classless society but the reality is, again, way different. There are actually two classes: the ruling class and everyone else. Quote: Don't act like Capitalist systems have never stifled protest. Our police tear gas peaceful protestors on college compasses, and fire rubber bullets and bean bags at them while donning riot gear and driving tanks down city streets. -------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
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Trumps Bone Spurs Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 13,337 Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes |
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Quote: Firstly, it's not like I chose one obscure country. These are some of the most influential countries in the world, and they make up a significant portion of what we consider 'Socialism' today. Also, these countries speak to my larger point about the method of imposing Socialism. Violent revolutions which place dictators at the helm always end poorly. Democratically elected Socialist parties are far more effective, and have lead to great success in the world. To ignore that is to be quite intellectually dishonest, or at least demonstrative of your confirmation bias. Quote: That's a lie. Which country has moved from Socialism to Communism? Actual Communism has never existed, firstly, but moreover, I know of no country that has progressed from Capitalism, to Socialism, and then to Communism, as Marx suggested would happen. If you step out of Liberland and look at reality, up until Reagans time America was doing fantastic. Tax rates were over 70% for decades. They're now lower than when Reagan was president, and our economy is in the shitter. Trickle down is a LIE!. Stop drinking Reagan's koolaid. Quote: Another lie. Germany has an incredible economy. The strongest in the EU, and they employ many Socialist principles. In fact, instead of union busting, they mandate a form of unionization. Quote: Firstly, profit is profit. The government is not usurping all of the profit. Obamacare has not destroyed healthcare innovation in America, you're fucking loony dude. Did you know that in America you have to pay $80,000 for a treatment of 'Sofosbuvir' (the cure for Hep C), but you can go to India and get it for $300? We need healthcare reform, and government intervention. Quote: This should be the tag on a Capitalism plaque! lmao Quote: Right, because the greedy Capitalists destroy the system, as Marx predicted. We will soon have Socialism, just you wait ;-) Quote: Support this claim. I gave you a nice list of countries that have done this, and they are very successful. Denmark and Germany in particular. Quote: "We want more minimum wage jobs" ![]() ![]() Regardless, more trickle down propaganda. The free trade agreements are the real culprit here. Quote: If we taxed at a reasonable rate, these programs wouldn't be in trouble at all. Social Security and Medicare have been a godsend for America. So has welfare. These programs are not 'abused' on the scale your Libertarian leaders would have you believe. Social Security and Medicare are rights. We pay into them, and we deserve to get that money back. If the government weren't so busy wasting money on our military (Such as the $1 Trillion to develop a plane that doesn't work, and the Pentagon has stated it doesn't even need), we could focus on taking care of America. Quote: I would just like to point out that it's right-wingers who oppose net-neutrality. Big corporations control the media as it is. They push their agenda, and honestly, they are our Capitalist masters, not the government. Regardless, Democratic Socialists don't oppose freedom of the press, so it's not worth talking about. It doesn't make your point at all, because this is an entirely different issue, which involves stifling dissent and free speech, which nobody wants. Quote: Either you're trying to be disingenuous, which I have to assume you are, because you completely dismissed all of my many examples of democratic socialist countries which are flourishing, or you don't understand what the fuck you're talking about. China is not an example of the Socialism we're discussing. You call Communist China 'Socialist', because you're trying to further a point that is baseless. -------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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I wonder how many here have actually read Marx or Adam Smith's writings on capitalism? The idea that there are three choices for government ... socialism, communism and capitalism is utterly and completely ridiculous. And the idea that the US has a pure form of capitalism is even MORE RIDICULOUS. The US form of government is a combination of five distinct factors:
1. Militant nationalism 2. Predatory capitalism 3. Corporate collusion with government edging toward a takeover of government by corporations 4. Democratically elected Constitutional Republic political system 5. Socialism applied to retirement, health care, infrastructure and education It is quite possible to have a democratic form of communism or socialism for that matter. It is possible to have have communism without militant nationalism. The Nazis were socialist with an extreme form of militant nationalism and the Soviets were communist with an extreme form of militant nationalism. If anyone actually read Adam Smith you'd realize that capitalism is a system to actually give labor a much fairer percentage of the revenues generated by the private sector. We now have a system where corporate CEO's are making 300 times as much as front line employees. This number was more like 30 times in the 50's and 60's. This is what predatory capitalism generates. IMHO, it is militant nationalism that screws up all the political and economic systems because it extracts and consumes such a high percentage of wealth and creative potential from the country while generating layers and layers of secrecy that turns away from transparency at every intersection. This extreme wealth gap has enabled a small number of corporations to amass enormous financial power and own/control the media, banking, energy distribution and weapons technology and most likely, our super secret space technology as well. They fund politicians campaigns and have effectively turned politicians into employees that execute their policies. Elections at the national level have become a form of PR for the masses as politicians become less and less responsive to the voter and more loyal to the campaign financers. Most people prefer a form of socialism + private property ownership + reasonable restraint on corporate power + democratically elected civilian control of military resources. We all suffer when a tiny minority of people control the vast majority of wealth, resources and political power. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master Edited by KauaiOrca (08/11/15 07:26 AM)
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Edward Lear Registered: 03/31/14 Posts: 1,888 |
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Quote: Libertarianism is how capatlism devolves back into fuedalsim. Corporate fuedalsim to be specific. Did you not read Ayn Rand? I don't blame you if not. She's a terrible writer. -------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: What America had in the late 1700's is much closer to what we would call "libertarianism" than anything we see today in our modern world. And, we have a very well documented record of what that has "evolved" or "devolved" into. America is not going in the direction of libertarianism. We will continue down the path of socialism, predatory capitalism and a very aggressive type of militant nationalism. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Up like Trump Registered: 12/03/13 Posts: 9,966 Loc: Strawberry Field Last seen: 6 years, 3 months |
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Quote: The socialist European countries are the countries that have done the worst to Africa. But no, as long as your purpose is to blame capitalism, facts can gladly be thrown out of the window. --------------------
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Alt Center Registered: 06/20/04 Posts: 14,850 Loc: S.E. |
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KO, we are not paying interest to the fed, we are paying interest to the holders of us treasuries. That's where the interest is going. Treasuries bought with qe may seem to be interest free but it is just basically counterfeiting. It creates more cash in circulation chasing the same amount of goods which in time will lead to inflation.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/
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Edward Lear Registered: 03/31/14 Posts: 1,888 |
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I don't believe we're going that direction. I just see that Objectivism, Ayn Rand's philosophy, was mostly about allowing the super wealthy to do whatever the fuck they want.
That to me looks like the path to feudalism and I think people who follow Rand's philosophy should have some idea of what it is she envisioned. There are forms of anarchist thought that don't concentrate power in the hands of the super wealthy. Anarcho-syndicalism is one example. Communalism is another. -------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: Virtually ALL Western nations, including the USA are part socialist and part capitalist. There are no pure socialist nations in the Western world. It is the joining together of the military and for profit corporations to exploit resources wherever they can be found, but hopefully in undeveloped nations that has created a cycle of poverty in resource rich nations (Africa, for example). The profits of these efforts are used to reward the political class that distorts the truth about what is really happening. There is enough wealth, resources, information and technological know-how to turn our earth into a true utopia but the wealth class doesn't want this. Instead, they want a massive servant class to provide for them as they pursue a god-like existence. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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