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Up like Trump Registered: 12/03/13 Posts: 9,966 Loc: Strawberry Field Last seen: 6 years, 2 months |
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Quote: Are the French more capitalistic than socialist? The Dutch? They are the ones who most royally fucked Africa. Whats your solution to the epidemic you'be described? --------------------
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: Whoa Nellie. How does the Federal Reserve generate their revenues? Where exactly do you think they get their "profits" from in terms of interest payments? -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Alt Center Registered: 06/20/04 Posts: 14,850 Loc: S.E. |
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Instead of asking me what I think, you might do better to show some evidence of what you are claiming.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: The ratio of capitalism to socialism in Europe and the US would be an interesting discussion, I guess, but not sure it would lead anywhere. It is most often militant nationalism joining forces with for profit corporations that has led to the exploitation of resources from weaker nations. The solution? 1. Dramatic reduction of military spending across the globe. More diplomatic solutions to the problems of borders. 2. Establishing some very teethy global human rights standards that are enforced rigorously. 3. Reform of the afterlife salvation cult religions that push an apocalyptic end game that creates a bizarre from of insanity in our species enabling a "chosen people" belief system that creates very fertile ground for militant nationalism to root and grow. 4. A massive global infrastructure program to improve education, transportation and delivery of basic needs like fresh water, food, and supplies for housing to ALL humans on this planet 5. Establishing a global education standard that leads to every human learning at least 2 languages fluently ... so that ALL humans can eventually communicate with one another directly. 6. Total and complete transparency on all levels with legal entities including government, business, charities, etc. Begin with absolute transparency in the area of who funds political parties and candidates, what deals are made and who benefits from contributions. 7. Tax systems that reward a fair voluntary distribution of profits between owners, executives and labor. Giving Labor a stronger voice in the corporate boardroom similar to what we see in Germany. 8. Putting into place more direct democracy principles similar to what we see in Switzerland, a country that, IMHO, has the most refined system of democracy on that planet. That should get things started. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: The interest that the US pays on its debt eventually finds its way into the revenues of the Federal Reserve Bank. That's how it works. The Federal Reserve provides virtually unlimited credit to the US Treasury and in return they get paid interest on that debt. Of course, the fractional reserve banking system is a big, big part of the problem as well, but that's another issue entirely. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Chilldog Extraordinaire Registered: 11/11/09 Posts: 33,362 Loc: 'Merica Last seen: 55 minutes, 50 seconds |
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Quote: I'm right there with you on runaway capitalism, but your first two points appear to be a contradiction. Vastly reducing military spending seems like an impediment to enforcing strict human rights laws. What would be the mechanism of enforcing these laws? Vast economic sanction? I feel like that would only create factions of enemies. --------------------
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Alt Center Registered: 06/20/04 Posts: 14,850 Loc: S.E. |
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KO, I think you may be a tiny bit mixed up on one or two things.
>The interest that the US pays on its debt eventually finds its way into the revenues of the Federal Reserve Bank. That's how it works. The Federal Reserve provides virtually unlimited credit to the US Treasury and in return they get paid interest on that debt. The usa debt is in the form of treasuries which are owed to individuals and foreign countries, not to the fed. Likewise, interest is owed to the owners of those treasuries, not to the fed. I'm not saying the fed does not make money, it does, but not in the way you are saying. >1. Dramatic reduction of military spending across the globe. More diplomatic solutions to the problems of borders. Agreed >2. Establishing some very teethy global human rights standards that are enforced rigorously. A new world govt or even more pc enforcement than we already have? I say min standards that are encouraged, to hell with the teeth. >3. Reform of the afterlife salvation cult religions that push an apocalyptic end game that creates a bizarre from of insanity in our species enabling a "chosen people" belief system that creates very fertile ground for militant nationalism to root and grow. Now you want to do away with religion? How very communistic of you. >4. A massive global infrastructure program to improve education, transportation and delivery of basic needs like fresh water, food, and supplies for housing to ALL humans on this planet We already have it, improvements could be made. Sounds like you want an over arching world govt to administer all these things. The rest sound good but the devil is in the details. -------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: All 8 points work together. You can't make one work without the others. Direct democracy will have a HUGE impact on the other factors. Ultimately, we need an economic system that can literally shut down the abusive leaders in a heartbeat. This can only happen with a much larger global middle class. As long as the vast majority of humans on this planet are poor, it creates the conditions for the political, wealth and military classes to collude. We must find a way to get a much fairer distribution of profits between shareholders, executives and labor. This, I feel, is the highest priority right now. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Chilldog Extraordinaire Registered: 11/11/09 Posts: 33,362 Loc: 'Merica Last seen: 55 minutes, 50 seconds |
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Agree 100%
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: You can slice and dice it any way you want but the bottom line is the more money the US Government borrows (through issuing more Treasuries) the more money the Federal Reserve Makes as a lender. The system is complex, but more debt = more Federal Reserve Profits. Right now, the Fed Balance sheet is holding over a trillion in Treasuries themselves as a result of QE. To truly understand it all we'd have to bring in how member banks and fractional reserve banking works along with the fed lending window(s). No need for that as I think we both know the score. In simplest terms, the US rents its currency from the Federal Reserve Bank ... the more currency in circulation, the more rent is paid. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stranger Registered: 10/20/14 Posts: 1,895 Last seen: 7 years, 7 months |
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Quote: Orca could you go into greater details please? I am ignorant of this and would like to learn more from someone who has knowledge in this matter. Edited by WAN (08/11/15 01:03 PM)
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: I think this is a pretty good documentary overview of how the Federal Reserve and Fractional Reserve Banking work together to create the money supply for America. It's a big topic and a lot of background is needed to understand it. If you're truly interested, this film will help you a lot. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 1 day, 59 minutes |
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Quote: Who receives the interest payments on the debt? The bondholder.
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: The Federal Reserve is the largest single bond holder of US Treasuries with over 2.5 trillion held now on their balance sheet. More than China, Japan or Saudi Arabia. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master Edited by KauaiOrca (08/11/15 01:30 PM)
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Alt Center Registered: 06/20/04 Posts: 14,850 Loc: S.E. |
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It all goes back into the treasury. You try to make it sound like the fed keeps the interest. If you have any evidence to the contrary, show it. Not just a link to a big website or hours long video, we need a quote backing your statement.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/
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Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 1 day, 59 minutes |
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2
"Federal Reserve banks turned a record $98.7 billion in profits to the US Treasury in 2014" Like I said pages ago, interest free debt.
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: It doesn't all go back to the treasury, but a lot of it does. The FED is a complex organization and it's impossible to know all the ways that the FED and its member banks profit from their unique charter. What we do know is that the FED is more profitable than JP Morgan, Citibank, Bank of America and Goldman Sachs COMBINED. More profitable than Apple or Exxon. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Doctor Wolfe Registered: 02/21/15 Posts: 201 Last seen: 5 months, 11 days |
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Quote: In communism there will always be two classes, the ruling class and everyone else. Also playstations and choice in this day and age are too important to let go of. Playstations now are a means of social interactions which is on Maslow's hierarchy. Sure USSR got the first man to space, but capitalist America go the first man on the moon, the first probe past Saturn (past pluto now), invented cell phones, invented internet, invented nuclear bomb, achieved 99.9+% literacy, etc. etc. I'd claim America did more. Also why should everyone be equal? Why should a neuroseurgon who goes to school, studies hard and made sacrafices you or I wouldn't dream of be paid the same as Joe Shmo who smokes weed all day and doesn't lift a finger. That would be wrong to even consider they should have a similar quality of life, money is part of the fuel driving technological advancemnent. And as before mentioned (in a parevious post), very very few big businesses exist in a communist society, because why would they want to do business in a place where they can't make as much money. Without jobs and the stupid things we like (new computers, new technology, new cars, etc) people would revolt (especially after how accustomed to these things we have become). it basicallt stacks up that the government pays everyone the same wage no matter what job they do. The pay is very small. People in power in the government pay themselves more. Since everyone is paid the same, the only way to become rich is to steal. So if you work in a grocery store you might steal some bananas and sell them cheaply to a friend and make a couple bucks. This is the cause of horrible corruption because everyone steals something (this is exactly what happened to the Soviet Union). Nobody works hard because you will not get paid more because of it, unless you are in the government controlling everything. ideal communism should have no money, as it it works on an "honor system": everything is free but you take only what you need, and you work hard without any bosses or compensation schemes. Soviet Union and other implementations of communism had money for workers, but essentially had money-less transfers of goods between firms. Wages did differ based on occupation and seniority. There was a weird situation when pay of engineers was less than pay of manual laborers. There is less incentive for people to work hard in moneyless society, there is less incentive to be the best you can because whether you are a cashier or a heart surgeon or a inventor there is no difference in quality of life. When a mom says "you need to do to good in school and try your best" the son will just reply "why? either way i'll have the same house, same car, same food, basically the same life. I know that personally I wouldn't be going to graduate school if I wasn't going to get paid big bucks afterwards and have an improved quality of life for my children and I . You also say there is private ownership and Marxism and that is not true, maybe you need to reread, because Marxism does not allow private property as a rule. And though capitalist have fired rubber bullets on their own people during a "peaceful" protest, its a rare event, most protests go through without incident, not in a communist society. Read Mao....head bent, like a good communist and forgo the protest in the street with those "activist freedom seekers", they were shot. -------------------- Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality. Edited by DottoreWolfe (08/11/15 02:17 PM)
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: Take away the militant nationalism aspect from Soviet Russia and their story would be quite different. It is the ever expanding military spending that destroys the economies of most nations because all that spending does little if anything to improve the infrastructure of the country and nearly always has a huge element of waste associated with cronyism in terms of who makes the money on all those billions being spent. I'm certainly not advocating for communism as a blend democratic socialism and capitalism is, by far, the preferred form of government in our modern world and that's pretty much what we have in the USA. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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I Am 'They' Registered: 10/24/09 Posts: 21,590 Loc: Dallas with all Last seen: 7 months, 22 hours |
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IT isn't capitalism when a big centralized government makes rles and regulations that allow them to control what companies live and what companies die, when tools in suits who know NOTHING about various industries try to control them, nd when those same tools in government attack certain companies or enterprises in the name of 'fairness'
The problem is, the governemnt is too big ad has too much control. That is why the US oriinally had states rights--in the states is where the democracy is Anyone who thinks more goverment with more rules and regulations is a winning plan has a fucking hole in their head and has been conned by the statists. Enjoy your journey on the cattle cars to the camps.
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